plenzmd1 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Saint, did not want to quite your whole post , but i think it was good and reasoned. This is where i am on this thing now. 1) Need the NFL to actually confirm or deny the Mort Report. Many of us, including me, assuming the Mort report is true. Having said that, seems to me Brady and Belichick confirmed it yesterday, but still want confirmation. 2) I want to know what the Pats and Colts balls both were at when measured before the game. This could be just a refs memory. Tom said he likes his ball right at 12.5, so I am assuming all the Pats balls were at 12.5. I would think Luck as well would have a preferred pressure, and all his would be at the same pressure. And yes, i will accept a refs memory here. 3) If the Pats balls dropped exponentially more than the Colts balls in the first half, we have a problem. If Pats balls dropped 2 PSI and Colts dropped 1.7, no worries. But if Pats dropped 2, and Colts dropped .2, no other conclusion can be made except the balls were tampered with. 4) If there is a problem, the Pats need to punished, even if the NFL cannot definitively find out who did the tampering. This is not a court of law, if the balls were tampered with I think a reasonable person would conclude it was the Pats who did the tampering. As of now, i am waiting to hear from the NFL on the evidence first . I will also say if the evidence is there just on the balls being tampered with, i will forever think the Pats have cheated all along, and they have just not been caught more often. That is more of a penalty than any fine or draft pick or Super Bowl suspension. They can win the Super Bowl 12 times in row, people will assume it was fraudulent. . Sucks for them, and sure i spose some of it is jealously at their success...but thats is what they will deal with from here on in, and it will forever taint their legacy. Edited January 23, 2015 by plenzmd1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 they probably did "cheat" I would probably click yes, as they have been caught before and it sounds like these reports are probably true atleast to a degree that would qualify..... but i think thats a pretty broad spectrum word, and rushing to be the one that condemns them the heaviest and first is the frenzy i was talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Also, it bears repeating that they fumbled 3 times against the Ravens. According to this guy's methods, they don't count as fumbles -- only lost ones do. Sometimes teams are lucky with regard to fumbles, and the Patriots appear to be consistently lucky at home when it comes to recovering fumbles. (Cue the tinfoil hat crowd, who can now argue that they cheat when recovering fumbles.) Like using magnets in the ball and their gloves? Edited January 23, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Saint, did not want to quite your whole post , but i think it was good and reasoned. This is where i am on this thing now. 1) Need the NFL to actually confirm or deny the Mort the Report. Many of us, including me, assuming the Mort report is true. Having said that, seems to me Brady and Belicheck confirmed it yesterday, but still want confirmation. 2) I want to know what the Pats and Colts balls both were at when measure. This could be just a refs memory. Tom said he like his ball right at 12.5, so I am assuming all the Pats balls were at 12.5. I would think Luck as well would have a referred pressure, and all his would be at the same pressure. And yes, i will accept a refs memory here. 3) If the Pats balls dropped exponentially more than the Colts balls in the first half, we have a problem. If Pats balls dropped 2 PSI and Colts dropped 1.7, no worries. But if Pats dropped 2, and Colts dropped .2, no other conclusion can be made except the balls were tampered with. 4) If there is a problem, the Pats need to punished, even if the NFL cannot definitively find out who did the tampering. This is not a court of law, if the balls were tampered with I think a reasonable person would conclude it was the Pats who did the tampering. As of now, i am waiting to hear from the NFL on the evidence first . I will also say if the evidence is there just on the balls being tampered with, i will forever think the Pats have cheated all along, and they have just not been caught more often. That is more of a penalty than any fine or draft pick or Super Bowl suspension. They can win the Super Bowl 12 times in row, people will assume it was fraudulent. . Sucks for them, and sure i spose some of it is jealously at their success...but thats is what they will deal with from here on in, and it will forever taint their legacy. I've said this before, but don't assume that the refs did anything more than give the balls a squeeze test prior to the game. I honestly don't believe league propaganda about their expert-like enforcement of regulations prior to games. At all. Especially with regard to an issue that has never come up in the 95 year history of the league (as far as I know). That doesn't mean that the Pats didn't use non-reg balls. Obviously, it appears that they did. Like using magnets in the ball ans their gloves? LOL! Edited January 23, 2015 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I've said this before, but don't assume that the refs did anything more than give the balls a squeeze test prior to the game. I honestly don't believe league propaganda about their expert-like enforcement of regulations prior to games. At all. Especially with regard to an issue that has never come up in the 95 year history of the league (as far as I know). That doesn't mean that the Pats didn't use non-reg balls. Obviously, it appears that they did. LOL! If the refs did not measure the balls pre game...then this all goes away. I agree. Seems to me if thats the case, lot easier out for the NFL than this. Thats is just a mistake, not a conspiracy to cheat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I just checked their second home game and the fumbled in that one too! http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201410050nwe.htm . Of course, they recovered it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 mark brunell started to cry on tv. im not sure hes the most level headed commentator here. Does that discount what he has to say? we have brunell saying it would go 10 yards further, leinart saying he couldnt throw it as far. how about the claim from Bettis that it would make the ball much more secure as you are running with it and the pats* having far and away the least fumbles lost per year since 07 and the least fumbles total of any outdoor team in the same time frame. We have people saying they watched the today show and the ball was visibly sagging when deflated 2psi and others saying on mike and mike that greeny said he couldnt tell the difference holding the two and itd take a professional player to even attempt to. Greeny? The completely unathletic Mike Greenberg? Who cares if he can tell the difference. Why are pros saying they can. Did you watch the video with Brunell and Bettis? we have reports it was all D'Qwells interception and Dqwell saying he couldnt tell anything. As stated it was the equipment manager that discovered the issue. We have nothing confirmed from the league on the number of balls or pressure difference, and some of you are acting like we have smoking gun proof that for 10+ years the team has done this every game to every ball, and its a HUGE advantage, and former players and coaches dont care when facing them again. Not at all what I said. What I said was that the repetition of repeated violations whether big or small is why this situation is being made into a big deal. no looks at whether individual players have gotten better/worse when they come and go from the team, and that this has created a super hero qb that dates back to 2001 twice as long as even the stats being touted suggest. Ben Jarvus Green Ellis 0 fumbles in 4 years with the pats* goes to the Bengals and has 5 in 2 years. And of course the "nfl wants to hide this, but they also had sneaky random public tests done and made it very clear that something was up instead of just warning the team pre-game" issues. Did I say that? I said the NFL wants to hide this? All of the post you quoted me was from the article itself with the exception of the lines That is what the defenders of the pats* need to hear over and over. The sidebar comments from former players also struck me as very damning that its against the rules so it must be MAJOR, while the nfl has over that time made the rules even looser, giving teams even more access to balls after the tests. Again did I say that? In another post I said that it isn't this situation by itself it is the repeated accusations and discovery of them stepping outside of the rules that is causing this to be a big deal. The proverbial straw that broke the camels back. but the distaste for the patriots and a media that most of the board doesnt trust on any other issue but this one hasnt gotten anyone wrapped up in a frenzy here. May Day put a picture that refutes this. This isn't a Bills/pats* issue. Sure I hate them. That hasn't changed one bit because of this. What has happened is that fans of other teams are now also hopping on the pats* are cheaters bandwagon. Some posters love to say if this was x team nobody would care when it comes to situations including a thread earlier this year about several favorable calls in the pats* game. That has been true for fans of many other teams. Until now. Not sure why you came at me but your snark is very unwarranted. Especially for the post you quoted. This situation is confirmation of what many around here have thought for a long time. The pats* will do whatever it takes to win whether that is within the rules, stretching the rules, or outside of them. Again this isn't whether or not cheating benefited them. It is about whether or not they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobu Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Updated Patriots logo. http://pic.twitter.com/b0VEMJr6Vh Edited January 23, 2015 by Show Me The Baby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Saint, did not want to quite your whole post , but i think it was good and reasoned. This is where i am on this thing now. 1) Need the NFL to actually confirm or deny the Mort the Report. Many of us, including me, assuming the Mort report is true. Having said that, seems to me Brady and Belicheck confirmed it yesterday, but still want confirmation. 2) I want to know what the Pats and Colts balls both were at when measure. This could be just a refs memory. Tom said he like his ball right at 12.5, so I am assuming all the Pats balls were at 12.5. I would think Luck as well would have a referred pressure, and all his would be at the same pressure. And yes, i will accept a refs memory here. 3) If the Pats balls dropped exponentially more than the Colts balls in the first half, we have a problem. If Pats balls dropped 2 PSI and Colts dropped 1.7, no worries. But if Pats dropped 2, and Colts dropped .2, no other conclusion can be made except the balls were tampered with. 4) If there is a problem, the Pats need to punished, even if the NFL cannot definitively find out who did the tampering. This is not a court of law, if the balls were tampered with I think a reasonable person would conclude it was the Pats who did the tampering. As of now, i am waiting to hear from the NFL on the evidence first . I will also say if the evidence is there just on the balls being tampered with, i will forever think the Pats have cheated all along, and they have just not been caught more often. That is more of a penalty than any fine or draft pick or Super Bowl suspension. They can win the Super Bowl 12 times in row, people will assume it was fraudulent. . Sucks for them, and sure i spose some of it is jealously at their success...but thats is what they will deal with from here on in, and it will forever taint their legacy. i saw some reports yesterday that the pats were using the colts balls in the first half because the pats didnt have a usable ball at one point i think we still have a lot of story left to hear (if the report i mentioned is true, it might be worse and not better as more comes out). i also think the tv end and the twitter end, where we normally call guys trolls and say they are just trying to be crazy to get clicks we are now taking those guys as reporters of fact. so it may trend down a little bit as actual facts come out. i mean, the authority so many are citing started to tear up over this and no one wants to say he might be overplaying his hand. Edited January 23, 2015 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Updated Patriots logo. http://pic.twitter.com/b0VEMJr6Vh Incomplete -- also needs the asterisk in place of the star on the hat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I just checked their second home game and the fumbled in that one too! http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201410050nwe.htm . Of course, they recovered it. the 2nd half of the page adjusts for total fumbles, not just fumbles lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Not sure why you came at me but your snark is very unwarranted. Especially for the post you quoted. This situation is confirmation of what many around here have thought for a long time. The pats* will do whatever it takes to win whether that is within the rules, stretching the rules, or outside of them. Again this isn't whether or not cheating benefited them. It is about whether or not they did. you were quoted because you were the last strong post - i thought it was VERY clear that my response was much broader than you alone, but apologize if you think i singled you out and dumped the whole conversation at your feet. i also didnt say this was JUST a bills pats issue, but that a lot of people dont like the pats and that the media loves to start a frenzy instead of try to distribute the baseline information for forming a reasonable opinion Edited January 23, 2015 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Incomplete -- also needs the asterisk in place of the star on the hat http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cheatriots cheatriots https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608023458080295354&pid=15.1&P=0 Edited January 23, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 The Pats fumbled at home in SIX OUT OF THEIR FIRST SEVEN GAMES in 2014! http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201412140nwe.htm . They recovered every last one of them, however. I don't have the hear to check the final game against the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 you were quoted because you were the last strong post - i thought it was VERY clear that my response was much broader than you alone, but apologize if you think i singled you out and dumped the whole conversation at your feet. I did and found it especially strange since my entire post was 2 sentences of me and the rest quotes of the story. I didn't even think my post was that strong lol. Oh well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Saint, did not want to quite your whole post , but i think it was good and reasoned. This is where i am on this thing now. 1) Need the NFL to actually confirm or deny the Mort Report. Many of us, including me, assuming the Mort report is true. Having said that, seems to me Brady and Belichick confirmed it yesterday, but still want confirmation. . This is what I think also. Several posters have hung their hat on the "we haven't heard officially that 11 of 12 balls were underinflated", but I would be flabbergasted if the league let two of their stars come out in separate news conferences, for a mistaken report. That would be crazy, they would have stopped them rather than appear foolish afterwards..................the 11 of 12 is confirmed enough for me. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) the 2nd half of the page adjusts for total fumbles, not just fumbles lost. But he leads with them never fumbling at home! And he says the following, which is false: "The biggest difference between the Patriots and the other 2 teams who did it was that New England ran between 150 and 200 MORE plays this year than those teams did in the years they had zero home fumbles, making the Patriots stand alone in this unique statistic." Edited January 23, 2015 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 they probably did "cheat" I would probably click yes, as they have been caught before and it sounds like these reports are probably true atleast to a degree that would qualify..... but i think thats a pretty broad spectrum word, and rushing to be the one that condemns them the heaviest and first is the frenzy i was talking about. Consider it a lifetime achievement award. It's not a huge deal, but it's certainly cheating. How many other things could they be caught doing? The helmet signals wouldn't surprise me at all, but I'd love to have someone come up with some concrete evidence. They are presumed to be following the rules, but I don't think they deserve that any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 The Statistically Impossible Patriots Fumble Record http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/?p=2932 If you look at the author's "updated" analysis at the bottom, he discredits the whole enterprise. http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/?p=2932 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 This is what I think also. Several posters have hung their hat on the "we haven't heard officially that 11 of 12 balls were underinflated", but I would be flabbergasted if the league let two of their stars come out in separate news conferences, for a mistaken report. That would be crazy, they would have stopped them rather than appear foolish afterwards..................the 11 of 12 is confirmed enough for me. . odds are it is fairly accurate, but what if they come out with findings next week that it was 6 of 12 and it was 1 lbs? This is the same league that refused to share the evidence in the saints fiasco (a team that does GREAT in national slots and recently won a SB) and the players involved had to go to court to get the full story on their suspensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts