GG Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 tannehill played WR until his final 2 years of college. more nfl ready but what standard? they are both considered projects that had the physical tools but hadnt put it all together to the level youd hope. More NFL ready than EJ by scout standards. He also showed better progress than EJ going from rookie year to second year. I think he definitely benefited from more playing time. Yet, there are still questions about him. So using him as a measuring stick, with very limited playing time as a QB in college and seeing him developing on a faster scale than EJ is certainly a concern. But that's not the point of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddog69 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 More NFL ready than EJ by scout standards. He also showed better progress than EJ going from rookie year to second year. I think he definitely benefited from more playing time. Yet, there are still questions about him. So using him as a measuring stick, with very limited playing time as a QB in college and seeing him developing on a faster scale than EJ is certainly a concern. But that's not the point of this thread. In fairness, Tannehill started 16 games in his first year. EJ still hasn't started 16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centerline Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 If Whaley is blaming coaching as the reason EJ hasn't improved, it says a lot about Whaley!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 If Whaley is blaming coaching as the reason EJ hasn't improved, it says a lot about Whaley!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please elaborate. What, exactly, does it say about Whaley? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 How does that make him more NFL ready? Saying he only played two years as a QB in college because he was a WR implies that he was a WR and had only played QB a total of two years, which would be ridiculously low. But if he were a QB his whole life and only played WR two years, then went back to QB the last two, it wouldn't be all that crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Manuel and Kouandjio. I am not ready to call either one of these two "busts" at this point. Does the fact that, under Marrone's leadership, virtually every single offensive player on the Bills either (1) regressed, (2) failed to develop in any significant way, or (3) fell far short of his respective potential cause you to consider, in any way, that the problem might not be the players? Does the fact that under Marrone, whose specialty was offensive line, (1) Pears, who actually previously graded out as serviceable at RT, was played at RG where he graded out far worse - (2) that Urbick, who had previously graded out at RG better than any other guard on the roster, couldn't even see playing time for half the year; and when he does, it is at LG where he grades out far worse than at RG - (3) that Glenn and Wood both regressed considerably at their respective positions - (4) that two highly thought of rookie linemen could make no progress at all - make you pause at all to think that maybe the problem might have been Marrone? I think I will wait until I see what a competent offensive coaching staff can do with these players before I consider them "busts." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Please elaborate. What, exactly, does it say about Whaley? Didn't you read his 1st 7 posts Gug?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Saying he only played two years as a QB in college because he was a WR implies that he was a WR and had only played QB a total of two years, which would be ridiculously low. But if he were a QB his whole life and only played WR two years, then went back to QB the last two, it wouldn't be all that crazy. in the comparison with a guy like EJ that threw twice as many passes in college - it stuck out as an odd comment though. I wasnt trying to misrepresent or anything - we just never discuss HS pedigree around here really (ive mentioned it in a few posts and gotten laughed at). And really, i dont think tannehills HS experience was ahead of EJs. but a big sidetrack if we pursue it past the point of "other qbs of similar tier have gotten longer leashes." was just a comment that seemed out of place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 If Whaley is blaming coaching as the reason EJ hasn't improved, it says a lot about Whaley!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That Whaley is astute, perceptive, intuitive, observant...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Agreed 1000%. No player have improved after 1 or 2 years in the league. No pro bowl rookie year? Cut the bust and move on. Simple facts are no GM has ever made any mistakes. Fire Whaley and hire 2-14 Bill Polian! Back into form CB. Did it really take more than 2 seasons to see that Blaine Gabbert wasn't good enough? Because if there's one guy I see who has EJ's career arc it's that guy. Why does a team need to wait 3 years before figuring a guy can play? Do you need to see miss on passes down-field and check down to backs and TE's? Heck, Buffalo's own WR's, Woods especially, were echoing this sentiment. For as good as this team has been finding defensive talent, they've done very little for offensive personnel. Well, aside from trading away their top pick in 2015, signing scrubs like Chris Williams, and trading for guys like Bryce Brown who couldn't supplant a RB 8 years older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 in the comparison with a guy like EJ that threw twice as many passes in college - it stuck out as an odd comment though. I wasnt trying to misrepresent or anything - we just never discuss HS pedigree around here really (ive mentioned it in a few posts and gotten laughed at). And really, i dont think tannehills HS experience was ahead of EJs. but a big sidetrack if we pursue it past the point of "other qbs of similar tier have gotten longer leashes." was just a comment that seemed out of place. Oh I know, and agree. I wasn't really criticizing your comment as much as showing anyone else that didnt know his history that he was a QB playing WR for two years and not a WR playing QB for two years. I think it makes a huge difference that he played HS QB as well as redshirt freshman QB as well as freshman QB until he was beaten out for the job and asked to play WR. In fact, it's probably 10x better experience to play two years on the field as a WR preparing to be a QB than it is to sit and don't get on the field as a QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1B4IDie Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) I think there are too many people who would rather be right. Manuel is in the top 1% of his profession. He is 24 years old and in one of the most pressured filled jobs in the world. Why do people think you should master that right away is crazy. Manuel is entering his 3rd season. Jim Kelly was in his 3rd professional season when he was a NFL "rookie." But hey, you gotta be the first guy to label a player a bust I guess. I'm definitely not an EJ fan, he has no gamble in him. To be an NFL QB, like Brady, Rodgers, Flacco, Manning, and Russell Wilson (Super Bowl winning QBs) you have just got to let it rip sometimes. He hasn't done that so far and doesn't seem willing to take a gamble and let it rip. He probably just plays the slot machines in Vegas. Now it could be coaching and it likely has a huge impact. Marrone is an uninspired no risk coach and EJ is a play it safe QB. If EJ ever makes it in the NFL someone has to unlock the gambler in him. The best coach for him should just teach him how to play poker. Sometime you just have to play the 2 7 off suit because no one will see it coming. Edited January 7, 2015 by Why So Serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I am not ready to call either one of these two "busts" at this point. Does the fact that, under Marrone's leadership, virtually every single offensive player on the Bills either (1) regressed, (2) failed to develop in any significant way, or (3) fell far short of his respective potential cause you to consider, in any way, that the problem might not be the players? Does the fact that under Marrone, whose specialty was offensive line, (1) Pears, who actually previously graded out as serviceable at RT, was played at RG where he graded out far worse - (2) that Urbick, who had previously graded out at RG better than any other guard on the roster, couldn't even see playing time for half the year; and when he does, it is at LG where he grades out far worse than at RG - (3) that Glenn and Wood both regressed considerably at their respective positions - (4) that two highly thought of rookie linemen could make no progress at all - make you pause at all to think that maybe the problem might have been Marrone? I think I will wait until I see what a competent offensive coaching staff can do with these players before I consider them "busts." None of this has anything to do with Kouandjio and Manuel. The reality is, they added offensive coaching in 2014 to help Nate. Specifically, QB coach Todd Downing, Senior Offensive Assistant Jim Hostler, while retaining OL coach Pat Morris. And, they were in the 2nd year of whatever system they ran! It's sooooo convenient for people to blame Marrone now that he's gone. I get the guy was a jerk and probably not a good coach, but he was a symptom and not the disease here. Personnel acquired is the problem, and that's Whaley's thing. He's failed to build an OL, and even the guys Marrone finally had to play (Urbik) were mediocre. I guess people forget about Jim McNally, who, despite being a renowned OL coach, couldn't get much out of the OL circa 2007, save for Jason Peters (who was 2nd team All-Pro that year). You can have all the coaches in the world, but without some talent you're left hanging. And the talent in 2014 on the OL, specifically the interior, was severely lacking. That's on the guy trying to convince prospective HC's that Manuel needs more development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) None of this has anything to do with Kouandjio and Manuel. The reality is, they added offensive coaching in 2014 to help Nate. Specifically, QB coach Todd Downing, Senior Offensive Assistant Jim Hostler, while retaining OL coach Pat Morris. And, they were in the 2nd year of whatever system they ran! It's sooooo convenient for people to blame Marrone now that he's gone. I get the guy was a jerk and probably not a good coach, but he was a symptom and not the disease here. Personnel acquired is the problem, and that's Whaley's thing. He's failed to build an OL, and even the guys Marrone finally had to play (Urbik) were mediocre. I guess people forget about Jim McNally, who, despite being a renowned OL coach, couldn't get much out of the OL circa 2007, save for Jason Peters (who was 2nd team All-Pro that year). You can have all the coaches in the world, but without some talent you're left hanging. And the talent in 2014 on the OL, specifically the interior, was severely lacking. That's on the guy trying to convince prospective HC's that Manuel needs more development. Right, Whaley appears to have all the acumen in the world for acquiring defensive talent; however, none for acquiring offensive talent? Sorry, but it takes both parts of the equation to produce successful results: Finding talent and coaching it. And don't tell me about what coaching means - just look at the defensive players who regressed, failed to develop, or failed to live up to their potential under Wannstedt and see how they did under Pettine and Schwartz... Or maybe you can talk to Indy about what a bust Hughes was... Edited January 7, 2015 by billsfan1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numark3 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Right, Whaley appears to have all the acumen in the world for acquiring defensive talent; however, none for acquiring offensive talent? Sorry, but it takes both parts of the equation to produce successful results: Finding talent and coaching it. And don't tell me about what coaching means - just look at the defensive players who regressed, failed to develop, or failed to live up to their potential under Wannstedt and see how they did under Pettine and Schwartz... Or maybe you can talk to Indy about what a bust Hughes was... Aaron Williams, Dareus, hughes, searcy, bradham, gilmore all got more talented last year.... Duh Edited January 7, 2015 by Crayola64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey greco Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Sweet, double down on a bad bet. People B word about Marrone coaching the last game for his own record, but Whaley is allowed to follow up this pathetic waste of 3 first round draft picks based on a terrible decision to draft Manuel, and now is going to base the head coach decision around that failure. If this is true Whaley should be fired tomorrow. Manuel is a never was, never will be, and everyone outside this idiot and a small portion of the Bills fanbase can see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000455062/article/report-bills-gm-wants-next-coach-to-revive-ej-manuel I honestly think we might lose out a good HC now. I don't like how DW is doing this. If i was a HC and they want me to develop EJ and i want my own QB then i wouldn't take the bills job. First, lets deal with the facts... 1. EJ is on this roster, period. 2. He has shown signs of potential, showed signs of improvement in practice (according to reports), etc. 3. Doug has said publicly multiple times that EJ's career is far from done, but the Bills will also be aggressive in adding at least one, if not 2 more QB's this off season. So why would Doug telling candidates that they want the new staff to try and develop EJ as well be a negative? The new staffs JOB is to DEVELOP players, and Whaley is making it clear that the Bills still believe EJ has something to offer and they want him to have the same shot at development. In the mean time, Doug has been very clear he isn't going to sit on his hands at QB and will add one or 2 guys this summer, which of course the new staff will have input on I am sure. In fact, if I am a HC candidate, I would assume even before I interviewed for the job that EJ is going to be in the mix at QB and someone worth trying to develop. He's a former first round pick with only 14 starts, 3 comeback wins, some impressive road wins, some impressive tough wins, and a guy who has show signs of potential. He's also shown lots of young, rookie, and raw mistakes to go along with it. But nothing to this point indicates he is a complete bust and should be tossed to the curb. No coach is going to come in here and assume the kids career is done...they are going to see what they have in all their players and try and take them to the next level of development. Just because Doug went with a Vet this year doesn't mean EJ can't improve under better coaching and from learning from a vet for a year like Orton. HC candidates know all of this though, its TBD posters who decide in absolutes if a player is a bust or not, often before they ever even step on the field or barely see the field. I remember most this board being furious when Preston Brown was drafted and how he was declared to be someone who won't do much...you know who you are. Coaches coach...posters post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I am not ready to call either one of these two "busts" at this point. Does the fact that, under Marrone's leadership, virtually every single offensive player on the Bills either (1) regressed, (2) failed to develop in any significant way, or (3) fell far short of his respective potential cause you to consider, in any way, that the problem might not be the players? Does the fact that under Marrone, whose specialty was offensive line, (1) Pears, who actually previously graded out as serviceable at RT, was played at RG where he graded out far worse - (2) that Urbick, who had previously graded out at RG better than any other guard on the roster, couldn't even see playing time for half the year; and when he does, it is at LG where he grades out far worse than at RG - (3) that Glenn and Wood both regressed considerably at their respective positions - (4) that two highly thought of rookie linemen could make no progress at all - make you pause at all to think that maybe the problem might have been Marrone? I think I will wait until I see what a competent offensive coaching staff can do with these players before I consider them "busts." Bravo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Sweet, double down on a bad bet. People B word about Marrone coaching the last game for his own record, but Whaley is allowed to follow up this pathetic waste of 3 first round draft picks based on a terrible decision to draft Manuel, and now is going to base the head coach decision around that failure. If this is true Whaley should be fired tomorrow. Manuel is a never was, never will be, and everyone outside this idiot and a small portion of the Bills fanbase can see that. Whaley wasted 3 first round picks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 First, lets deal with the facts... 1. EJ is on this roster, period. 2. He has shown signs of potential, showed signs of improvement in practice (according to reports), etc. 3. Doug has said publicly multiple times that EJ's career is far from done, but the Bills will also be aggressive in adding at least one, if not 2 more QB's this off season. So why would Doug telling candidates that they want the new staff to try and develop EJ as well be a negative? The new staffs JOB is to DEVELOP players, and Whaley is making it clear that the Bills still believe EJ has something to offer and they want him to have the same shot at development. In the mean time, Doug has been very clear he isn't going to sit on his hands at QB and will add one or 2 guys this summer, which of course the new staff will have input on I am sure. In fact, if I am a HC candidate, I would assume even before I interviewed for the job that EJ is going to be in the mix at QB and someone worth trying to develop. He's a former first round pick with only 14 starts, 3 comeback wins, some impressive road wins, some impressive tough wins, and a guy who has show signs of potential. He's also shown lots of young, rookie, and raw mistakes to go along with it. But nothing to this point indicates he is a complete bust and should be tossed to the curb. No coach is going to come in here and assume the kids career is done...they are going to see what they have in all their players and try and take them to the next level of development. Just because Doug went with a Vet this year doesn't mean EJ can't improve under better coaching and from learning from a vet for a year like Orton. HC candidates know all of this though, its TBD posters who decide in absolutes if a player is a bust or not, often before they ever even step on the field or barely see the field. I remember most this board being furious when Preston Brown was drafted and how he was declared to be someone who won't do much...you know who you are. Coaches coach...posters post. A very reasonable, well thought out post...clearly a homer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts