26CornerBlitz Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Disagree. Keep EJ on the bench and let him compete in the off season. This is Orton's show at the moment and it doesn't do EJ any good to have to come in only to be ridiculed if he doesn't immediately rally them to three wins in a row. And I certainly don't want him playing in a "run for the bus" game, either. He needs to play meaningful games surrounded by teammates with meaningful expectations. GO BILLS!!! Too bad it's a show and it stinks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I am most certainly not "rooting for Manuel to fail." I'm not declaring him a bust. Nor do I have any illusions of Orton being any sort of long term answer. I just have a memory. If there was some reason I should believe that Manuel is, right now, a better option at QB, I would change my mind. So far, at least on this thread, what I have read is a lot of selective criticism of Orton, paired with selective excuses for Manuel. , that our O-line had been the slightest bit of help to our running backs, or that we had not been suffering from poor play calling. In terms of selective memory, i do believe Rocky that several of us have been highly critical of Orton...really going all the way back to the Vikings game. I really don't believe it is selective memory. In terms of the bolded..is that not the case for QB's? BTW, i thought the play calling was very good yesterday, i just think we lacked execution as they say. I just watch Orton and am not of the opinion he gives us a better chance to win. All objective stats, as well as subjective analysis, just do not lead me to think he is the better QB. I know you think different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivermont Mike Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Saying anyone sucks, much less a QB, after 14 games is the definition of stupid. Dareus was a bust on this board at one point. Mario was a disappointment. Gilmore sucks according to some and he helped shut down Peyton. This boner people have to call someone a bust is silly. Especially when the same people were probably awful at their jobs after 2 years. I agree completely, C.B97. It's even worse for Bills fans because 1) they love their team, 2) they know how important the QB position is, 3) we haven't been to the playoffs for a million years, 4) they see other teams' @*#& sixth-rounders become HOF QBs, and 5) there's this pervasive "win right now" mentality. In fact, the number of first-round QBs that make an immediate impact is relatively small. I don't think that this has anything to do with the right or wrong way to develop a starting quarterback. This is about impatience and "I've given thousands of dollars to this team so I deserve _______." The QB position has been particularly bad, and I get frustrated week after week watching our D hand the ball to our O and us come away with three points or nothing. KO is the latest in a succession of disappointments, most of whom never had a prayer because they were surrounded by bad coaching and questionable talent or because they were being compared to #12. How do you win in either of those scenarios? Best case scenario, IMHO, is a FA pickup of an experienced QB who actually has something to offer EJ. Also, my Christmas wish is that TSW will stop with the "EJ is a bust" nonsense. While I am waiting for that to happen, I'm going to hop on my magical unicorn (the one that farts gold coins) and take a ride to the other side of the rainbow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjjr Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Get the kid out there. Hopefully its clear now that it wasn't EJ holding the offense back like was said. The offensive line play has been disappointing all year, receivers are young and struggle against press coverage and the QB play has been inconsistent. Orton is a 8-8 guy and always will be. Like him or not, EJ has the potential to be better than that. We need to know if he can get there. Go Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Disagree. Keep EJ on the bench and let him compete in the off season. This is Orton's show at the moment and it doesn't do EJ any good to have to come in only to be ridiculed if he doesn't immediately rally them to three wins in a row. And I certainly don't want him playing in a "run for the bus" game, either. He needs to play meaningful games surrounded by teammates with meaningful expectations. GO BILLS!!! Hadn't looked at it that way; strong post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Get the kid out there. Hopefully its clear now that it wasn't EJ holding the offense back like was said. The offensive line play has been disappointing all year, receivers are young and struggle against press coverage and the QB play has been inconsistent. Orton is a 8-8 guy and always will be. Like him or not, EJ has the potential to be better than that. We need to know if he can get there. Go Bills Watch every all 22 from this year and you will see that Sammy Watkins RARELY struggles against press man. In fact, he beats it quite easily most of the time. And that includes Revis, Haden and all the other supposed shutdown CBs he's faced this year. If we had a QB skilled enough and with balls enough to test that more frequently, it would be more obvious to everyone. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAF43 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Disagree. Keep EJ on the bench and let him compete in the off season. This is Orton's show at the moment and it doesn't do EJ any good to have to come in only to be ridiculed if he doesn't immediately rally them to three wins in a row. And I certainly don't want him playing in a "run for the bus" game, either. He needs to play meaningful games surrounded by teammates with meaningful expectations. GO BILLS!!! The Bills still have a shot at going 10-6. The next 3 games are quite meaningful. What is gained by leaving Orton in? And do you or anyone else want EJ's next meaningful games to happen next season when he could potentially do even more damage by starting us off poorly and dooming our season from the outset? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 It is clear that what EJ's tender psyche needs most is to be thrown in for a thrashing against the Packers. "It will be good for his development". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 It is clear that what EJ's tender psyche needs most is to be thrown in for a thrashing against the Packers. Where in the hell does this come from????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Beeeews Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Once we lose to Green Bay, you will get your wish, and Manuel will start in Oakland (after this week we will officially be eliminated). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivermont Mike Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 (edited) Fact: There have been 14 quarterbacks picked in the first rounds from 2009 to 2014 who were on their team for at least one season. Four are starting and considered bona fides by their management or by analysts. 10 are considered busts, soon-to-be-replaced, disappointments or career backups. This link has career yardage, rating, and TD/INT data. The bona fides: Stafford, Newton, Luck, Tannehill The not-so-muches: Sanchez, Freeman, Bradford, Tebow, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Griffin III, Weeden, EJ The question: Given all this, is EJ a bust or is it too soon to call? If you answer "bust," back it up with data. I say that it is way too soon to make the call on this guy. To call him a bust at this point, in my opinion, is a knee-jerk reaction based on wishful thinking. If you're looking for the next "franchise quarterback" and you're hoping for the next Luck, you're going to be looking for a long time. A 28.5 percent success rate (and some of those guys on the bona fide list looked crappy their first year or two) is not really sufficient to call EJ a bust yet. Edited December 8, 2014 by Rivermont Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 It is clear that what EJ's tender psyche needs most is to be thrown in for a thrashing against the Packers. "It will be good for his development". Don't know how many times you've met him (I'm thinking you haven't) but if there is one thing fans don't have to worry about with EJ it's him having a tender psyche. But your straw man game is strong, I'll give you that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 The Bills still have a shot at going 10-6. The next 3 games are quite meaningful. What is gained by leaving Orton in? And do you or anyone else want EJ's next meaningful games to happen next season when he could potentially do even more damage by starting us off poorly and dooming our season from the outset? Yes, the next three games are quite meaningful. But it's Orton's ship to sail or sink at this point, from his perspective, his teammates perspective and the coaches' perspective. I don't think it's wise to put EJ in a situation where he "has" to be the savior; the minute he struggles out come the pitchforks and shovels as the mob storms One Bills Drive and demands the guillotine. Then all of a sudden it's Maneul that couldn't win the games to get us to the playoffs, it's Manuel who choked. Not a realistic situation for a kid who just isn't ready last time we saw him play. And the run for the bus games speak for themselves. So yeah, the next meaningful games for Manuel will be next season, assuming he has what it takes to win the job again. I don't agree with the idea that if Manuel wins the job again but starts off poorly, that our season is doomed at the start next year. That's what happened this year. Are you suggesting Manuel's 2-2 start which included him gift-wrapping a loss to Houston, is what doomed this season? Of course not. IMO, EJ Manuel needs to complete the process he was supposed to be going through last year. There is just no realistic upside for him in the next three games. But there's a TON of downside. When I weigh the two, I err on the side of caution. Orton made this bed, he needs to lie in it. He deserves that opportunity. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAF43 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Yes, the next three games are quite meaningful. But it's Orton's ship to sail or sink at this point, from his perspective, his teammates perspective and the coaches' perspective. I don't think it's wise to put EJ in a situation where he "has" to be the savior; the minute he struggles out come the pitchforks and shovels as the mob storms One Bills Drive and demands the guillotine. Then all of a sudden it's Maneul that couldn't win the games to get us to the playoffs, it's Manuel who choked. Not a realistic situation for a kid who just isn't ready last time we saw him play. And the run for the bus games speak for themselves. So yeah, the next meaningful games for Manuel will be next season, assuming he has what it takes to win the job again. I don't agree with the idea that if Manuel wins the job again but starts off poorly, that our season is doomed at the start next year. That's what happened this year. Are you suggesting Manuel's 2-2 start which included him gift-wrapping a loss to Houston, is what doomed this season? Of course not. IMO, EJ Manuel needs to complete the process he was supposed to be going through last year. There is just no realistic upside for him in the next three games. But there's a TON of downside. When I weigh the two, I err on the side of caution. Orton made this bed, he needs to lie in it. He deserves that opportunity. GO BILLS!!! I get your point, and I wasn't necessarily meaning myself that if EJ starts and it's poor then we're doomed, I was playing devil's advocate (same thing in response to this years 2-2 start). It is interesting to read your side of things because it seems we're both saying the same thing, just yours is you feel Orton should finish up, where my stance is I'd turn to EJ and see what the kid has learned. I can respect your opinion, and I'll be the first to admit, the complete lack of courage showed by Orton yesterday has me more bitter to him than I would've been prior to the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Yes, the next three games are quite meaningful. But it's Orton's ship to sail or sink at this point, from his perspective, his teammates perspective and the coaches' perspective. I don't think it's wise to put EJ in a situation where he "has" to be the savior; the minute he struggles out come the pitchforks and shovels as the mob storms One Bills Drive and demands the guillotine. Then all of a sudden it's Maneul that couldn't win the games to get us to the playoffs, it's Manuel who choked. Not a realistic situation for a kid who just isn't ready last time we saw him play. And the run for the bus games speak for themselves. So yeah, the next meaningful games for Manuel will be next season, assuming he has what it takes to win the job again. I don't agree with the idea that if Manuel wins the job again but starts off poorly, that our season is doomed at the start next year. That's what happened this year. Are you suggesting Manuel's 2-2 start which included him gift-wrapping a loss to Houston, is what doomed this season? Of course not. IMO, EJ Manuel needs to complete the process he was supposed to be going through last year. There is just no realistic upside for him in the next three games. But there's a TON of downside. When I weigh the two, I err on the side of caution. Orton made this bed, he needs to lie in it. He deserves that opportunity. GO BILLS!!! nice post K-9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 http://emccathletics...s/chadkellyyglk 47 TD's, 8 INTs, 3700 yards. Undefeated. BringBackKelly....this kid is a stud. OMG well that's a tumble. From Clemson to East Mississippi Community College Don't know how many times you've met him (I'm thinking you haven't) but if there is one thing fans don't have to worry about with EJ it's him having a tender psyche. Campy, have you met him? Why do you say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillAndPhilFan Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I am amazed that anyone can claim to know how bad (or good) EJ is. I recall staying up late at night (here in the UK) to watch the 2013 Draft and I remember the expert opinion that Buffalo had made a good choice in EJ because he had all the attributes to become “whatever sort of QB you want him to be” – given time, because he was not NFL ready yet. The ONLY thing you can say about his performances to date is that they prove that this view was correct – he was not ready to lead an NFL team. I know we had little choice but to throw him in, but to form any opinion about his long-term potential is like looking at a small child who's had a few maths lessons and then declaring that they are useless because they can't solve complex quadratic equations! I believe that we must find some way of getting EJ enough playing time, this year, to see what he can do. He has now had the time – that he always needed (and deserved) - to learn from an experienced QB (who's shown him both how to play well and how to play badly). So let's see – and THEN decide. If we don't do this, now, then we won't know until the 2015 season is well under way and, if EJ is not the answer, then we've lost yet another season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSOL Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 "Kyle Orton gives us the best chance to win" Bahahahahahaha!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 http://emccathletics...s/chadkellyyglk 47 TD's, 8 INTs, 3700 yards. Undefeated. BringBackKelly....this kid is a stud. Let me know when he wins a game vs. ECC North. Then we'll talk. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garranimal Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 "Kyle Orton gives us the best chance to win" Where have I heard this before.....right before a stadium broke out in "Tebow, Tebow, Tebow" chants....and went to the playoffs....and won a home game....throwing the ball....against the #1 defense in the league. I also belief their was a "let it rip" component to that story as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonborn10 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Have you people watched Orton play? He has sucked every game except against the Jets. Let EJ play. Orton is just so limited. He is not that much more accurate than EJ. The season is over. It was over when they lost to KC. Let EJ play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 If we put EJ in now there is no chance Orton comes back to Buffalo next year CBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 "Kyle Orton gives us the best chance to win" Bahahahahahaha!! translation: we know orton sucks, but EJ is worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikef272002 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I don't care if we're eliminated from playoffs, still have a chance, or what not... If I'm Marrone I start EJ and tell it like it is... "We're starting EJ because Orton makes $5million a year and can't even dive forward for a first down when the season is on the line... EJ at the very least will give this team his heart on his sleeve and play like it"... But ya they both suck, so play the one who sucks but has heart.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Have you people watched Orton play? He has sucked every game except against the Jets. Let EJ play. Orton is just so limited. He is not that much more accurate than EJ. The season is over. It was over when they lost to KC. Let EJ play. Except that it isn't and wasn't and coaches can't play it any other way. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 translation: we know orton sucks, but EJ is worse. IS he really though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSOL Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 (edited) translation: we know orton sucks, but EJ is worse. See, sir, thats why im laughing. Because he is not worse. EJ was .500 Kyle is .500. It was foolish to go with Orton. Shouldve let EJ develop his chemistry and timing with the recivers. And pick up the speed of the game. But NOOOOOO, we had to have Orton come in with his stick of false hope. And you all fell for it hook line and sinker. Orton does not, nor ever did give us the best chance to win. Our best chance to win is with EJ and this young burgeoning wide reciever corps of ours. Edited December 8, 2014 by mastershake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Disagree. Keep EJ on the bench and let him compete in the off season. This is Orton's show at the moment and it doesn't do EJ any good to have to come in only to be ridiculed if he doesn't immediately rally them to three wins in a row. And I certainly don't want him playing in a "run for the bus" game, either. He needs to play meaningful games surrounded by teammates with meaningful expectations. GO BILLS!!! What's the downside for EJ? If it is exposing his weaknesses then so be. The only way he is going to develop is to play. If he struggles and a crescendo of criticism materializes then so what? That is the nature of being a qb at any level. He should be able to handle the pressure in playing the last three games of the season without having it scar him for next season's preparation. Even if he falters and the natives get restless the more he plays before next season the better he will be prepared for next season. Are there risks playing him? Yes. The coaching staff has to make the determination as to whether he is ready or whether at this point he simply can't handle starting. If it is the latter case then it certainly doesn't bode well that he will be capable enough to compete for playing time next year. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 If we put EJ in now there is no chance Orton comes back to Buffalo next year CBF Win win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivermont Mike Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 (edited) translation: we know orton sucks, but EJ is worse. Back that up with facts. Four of 14 first-round QBs in the past five years are successful. Here are their first-year stats (or first 15 or 16 games) and a comparison to EJ (from nfl.com): Stafford - 13 games 1st and 2nd years: 19 TD/21 INT Newton - 16 games 1st year: 21 TD/17 INT Luck - 16 games 1st year: 23 TD/18 INT Tannehill - 16 games 1st year: 12 TD/13 INT EJ Manuel - 15 games 1st and 2nd years: 16 TD/12 INT So, maybe EJ is not the answer. But what if he needs just a bit more time to develop? Your impatience with the Bills not going to the playoffs has nothing to do with the right or wrong way to develop a quarterback. Orton's numbers are 14/7 for this year (http://www.nfl.com/p...444/careerstats). He's a veteran. So how do these numbers demonstrate that EJ is worse than Orton--or any of the successful 1st round picks, for that matter? EDIT: GO BILLS!!!!!!! Edited December 8, 2014 by Rivermont Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 If we asked the players, themselves, who do people think they would want starting against the Packers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSOL Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 (edited) If we asked the players, themselves, who do people think they would want starting against the Packers? It dosent matter. Whether EJ or Orton starts the next 3 games, we will go 1-2. I dont know who the hecks gonna dispute that Edited December 8, 2014 by mastershake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 It dosent matter. Whether EJ or Orton starts the next 3 games, we will go 1-2. I dont know who the hecks gonna dispute that I'm not surprised that you didn't answer the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 See, sir, thats why im laughing. Because he is not worse. EJ was .500 Kyle is .500. It was foolish to go with Orton. Shouldve let EJ develop his chemistry and timing with the recivers. And pick up the speed of the game. But NOOOOOO, we had to have Orton come in with his stick of false hope. And you all fell for it hook line and sinker. Orton does not, nor ever did give us the best chance to win. Our best chance to win is with EJ and this young burgeoning wide reciever corps of ours. Kyle is .500? I thought we were 7-6? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 What's the downside for EJ? If it is exposing his weaknesses then so be. The only way he is going to develop is to play. If he struggles and a crescendo of criticism materializes then so what? That is the nature of being a qb at any level. He should be able to handle the pressure in playing the last three games of the season without having it scar him for next season's preparation. Even if he falters and the natives get restless the more he plays before next season the better he will be prepared for next season. Are there risks playing him? Yes. The coaching staff has to make the determination as to whether he is ready or whether at this point he simply can't handle starting. If it is the latter case then it certainly doesn't bode well that he will be capable enough to compete for playing time next year. . The coaching staff has to weigh the benefits vs. the drawbacks. Is there a reasonable expectation that Manuel will lead us to three straight wins? No. Is there a reasonable expectation that Manuel will achieve meaningful developmental strides in "run for the bus" games? No. Is there a reasonable expectation that if Manuel DOESN'T win the last three that the fans will blame him for not getting us to the playoffs? Yes. The coaching staff stands to learn more about EJ Manuel's future after another full offseason and whether or not he wins the job back in a legitimate competition, than it does the last three games this year. It's just the continuation of the plan that should have played out like this last year. And lastly, in spite of his performances, Kyle Orton deserves the opportunity to see if he can get this team to 10 wins, especially while they're still mathematically alive, long shot though it may be. This is his team, not EJ's at the moment. EJ can wait until next year. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSOL Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I'm not surprised that you didn't answer the question. Fine. 53% in favor of EJ, 47% in favor of Kyle. Kyle is .500? I thought we were 7-6? Do u sense 8-8 coming or is it just me. Yeah, sure. Ortons offense is gonna outsore Aaron Rodgers offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 The coaching staff has to weigh the benefits vs. the drawbacks. Is there a reasonable expectation that Manuel will lead us to three straight wins? No. Is there a reasonable expectation that Manuel will achieve meaningful developmental strides in "run for the bus" games? No. Is there a reasonable expectation that if Manuel DOESN'T win the last three that the fans will blame him for not getting us to the playoffs? Yes. The coaching staff stands to learn more about EJ Manuel's future after another full offseason and whether or not he wins the job back in a legitimate competition, than it does the last three games this year. It's just the continuation of the plan that should have played out like this last year. And lastly, in spite of his performances, Kyle Orton deserves the opportunity to see if he can get this team to 10 wins, especially while they're still mathematically alive, long shot though it may be. This is his team, not EJ's at the moment. EJ can wait until next year. GO BILLS!!! This makes as much sense as anything I've read on this thread thus far. Although, in the words of Clint Eastwood, "'deserve's' got nothin' to do with it." Fine. 53% in favor of EJ, 47% in favor of Kyle. Do u sense 8-8 coming or is it just me. Yeah, sure. Ortons offense is gonna outsore Aaron Rodgers offense. I highly doubt that. But, perhaps a better question would be: who do you think the wide receiver corp would prefer? If you still think it would be a slight margin for EJ, then I'm going to suggest you have a memory deficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUFFALOTONE Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Watching Orton try and scramble is like watching Burt Reynolds in the last 20 seconds of the original longest yard. At least EJ gives us that weapon of having to use a LBer to spy. It would be great if he could read a flipping defense though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Watching Orton try and scramble is like watching Burt Reynolds in the last 20 seconds of the original longest yard. At least EJ gives us that weapon of having to use a LBer to spy. It would be great if he could read a flipping defense though. Watching Orton try to scramble is like watching Chandler trying to run after a catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSOL Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 (edited) This makes as much sense as anything I've read on this thread thus far. Although, in the words of Clint Eastwood, "'deserve's' got nothin' to do with it." I highly doubt that. But, perhaps a better question would be: who do you think the wide receiver corp would prefer? If you still think it would be a slight margin for EJ, then I'm going to suggest you have a memory deficiency. If you asked the recivers, theyde say idgaf! Whoever can get me the damn ball in stride. Orton has not been doin Sammy or Woods any favors lately Edited December 8, 2014 by mastershake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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