Roger Goodell Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 All NFL officials strive to clearly and fairly enforce league rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubs Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 All NFL officials strive to clearly and fairly enforce league rules. Hahaha. This made my day. Kudos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finfanfromrochester Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Check out this image and let me know what you guys think. From a completely technical perspective, that was actually PI http://i.imgur.com/0ArAX3m.png Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gfunk0311 Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 After reading through this, Im beginning to believe none of you know what the rules are for Intentional Grounding. It does not matter where the receiver is when the ball is released or in the air. All the matters is where the receiver is when the BALL HITS THE GROUND. Please stop flooding this is false information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxer Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Check out this image and let me know what you guys think. From a completely technical perspective, that was actually PI http://i.imgur.com/0ArAX3m.png Bang bang play, should not be PI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 (edited) Like I said, I've seen a number of plays in which the receiver was about as distant from the ball as Watkins. I mean Watkins wasn't even running toward where the ball was, and you can bet he wasn't running the wrong route. Plus the ball wasn't even really close to him. It was intentional grounding, pure and simple. If I didn't see it called against Drew Brees and one or two other QBs recently in similar situations, I'd say it was a bad call. But that's how it's being called now. And honestly, I think it's correct. Hypothetically lets say a QB throws a deep sideline pattern to his receiver launching the ball 50 yards down field but his receiver cuts off the pattern 25 yards downfield and runs a deep in vs. the fly. The ball lands at least 25 yards downfield beyond any receiver. Is that intentional grounding since no receiver is in the 'area'? The problem is the rule is inconsistent, arbitrary, randomly enforced, and subject to way too much individual interpretion by the officials. There may be no 'right' or 'wrong' in saying the call was correct or not because it is so subjective the term 'rule' should not even apply. Edited November 14, 2014 by All_Pro_Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Check out this image and let me know what you guys think. From a completely technical perspective, that was actually PI http://i.imgur.com/0ArAX3m.png You have the wrong screen shot on that one, because you can't see the ball. In your image the timing is when the ball hits Gilmore's right arm. If you look at the sideline screen shot, Gilmore gets there just as the ball arrives. And again, thew big issue is not that this call was made, but the unevenness of the calls. Don't even try to tell me that there were no holding calls against Bills' DL on nearly every play. If Coleman's crew decided to nail Wood for a jersey tug on Brown's run, where was the call on Mario that allowed Miller to spring a long outside run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Bang bang play, should not be PI. he was there early - its often going to be called. if you swapped the jerseys wed be outraged by a no call when the corner got there early. with it so close they wont get it 100% right, but i think this isnt the call to claim refs are out to get you on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Like I said, I've seen a number of plays in which the receiver was about as distant from the ball as Watkins. I mean Watkins wasn't even running toward where the ball was, and you can bet he wasn't running the wrong route. Plus the ball wasn't even really close to him. It was intentional grounding, pure and simple. If I didn't see it called against Drew Brees and one or two other QBs recently in similar situations, I'd say it was a bad call. But that's how it's being called now. And honestly, I think it's correct. You're wrong on this. I'm watching the replay in slow motion. Orton is only looking to the left and the only WR on that side is Watkins. Orton releases the ball in Watkins' direction before the break is made, and it was not one these throw away tosses. Again, if Watkins breaks left, the ball is right there, so he was in the vicinity of the play. But plain and simple, that call is not a gimme grounding so don't insert yourself in the score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finfanfromrochester Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 You have the wrong screen shot on that one, because you can't see the ball. In your image the timing is when the ball hits Gilmore's right arm. If you look at the sideline screen shot, Gilmore gets there just as the ball arrives. And again, thew big issue is not that this call was made, but the unevenness of the calls. Don't even try to tell me that there were no holding calls against Bills' DL on nearly every play. If Coleman's crew decided to nail Wood for a jersey tug on Brown's run, where was the call on Mario that allowed Miller to spring a long outside run? I mean that image pretty clearly shows the ball still in the air while contact is being made by the defender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 he was there early - its often going to be called. if you swapped the jerseys wed be outraged by a no call when the corner got there early. with it so close they wont get it 100% right, but i think this isnt the call to claim refs are out to get you on Absolutely. I know this to be true because every other game we have played this year, when our receivers where hit early, I was outraged that there was no call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Walt Coleman did indeed ref the Bills/Pats fiasco in 1998. But he also called 22 penalties (!!) on the 49ers when the Bills beat them at home in 1998 as well: http://articles.balt...l-mary-patriots . I remember that San Francisco game. That was one of the worst officiated games I've ever seen. The last drive of the first half, 18 plays and 8 of them penalties. Antonio Langham was Walt Coleman's B word on that drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Check out this image and let me know what you guys think. From a completely technical perspective, that was actually PI http://i.imgur.com/0ArAX3m.png What you can't tell form your still shot is that while Gilmore's arm is around him, it is not touching him and therefore, not pass interference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 If it was catchable with the receiver breaking properly after the ball is in the air I have a hard time with it. As others said - I assume sammy ran the right route- but what if he missed a read? At the time the ball was released, there was an option that could've realistically gotten there. Has anybody heard of this Mike Carey rule. That it doesn't matter what's going on when you throw it, only when the ball lands? How does that make any sense?? I am guessing from comments from Hughes he was yelling at ref about not getting a holding call and ran into him accidentally, but still ran into him. Flag, and lucky he was not ejected. Same crew that threw the flag on Hughes in the Pats games. I am sure Hughes was yapping about that all night too. If this is true, then he should be flagged, if not thrown out (like Steve Tasker in his last game). But, he wasn't looking at the ref at all. I thought just like last time, he was celebrating the play. You're on the wrong thread. The thread for talking about why the Bills lost is drastically different that a separate thread on how bad the officiating is while recognizing it was not the reason buffalo lost. Exactly. I think it's pretty clear what this thread is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Has anybody heard of this Mike Carey rule. That it doesn't matter what's going on when you throw it, only when the ball lands? How does that make any sense?? So just mug every receiver once the ball is thrown, and every PI call could be offset by an intentional grounding. Carey's trying to excuse the call, not explain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloWings Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 That PI call was absolute horse $#! and dont even get me started on that tubby troll calling Hughes for unsportsmanlike..... The Hughes unsportsmanlike call reminded me of what Andre Reed did in the 1998 playoff game down there...trying to get up, he accidentally bumps into the ref, so he throws a flag. Yes, Hughes was probably going after a Dolphin to get in his face, but clearly didn't intend to bump into the ref. Apparently, the Bills have to be careful about everything they say and do for the rest of the year...while the Pats and Fins can say whatever the H they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 So just mug every receiver once the ball is thrown, and every PI call could be offset by an intentional grounding. Carey's trying to excuse the call, not explain it. Exactly. And, somehow he turned around Simms' mind about it, using that logic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gisele Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Carey's an idiot. He hurts my brain every time he tries to explain something. How did he get picked for that job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finfanfromrochester Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 (edited) What you can't tell form your still shot is that while Gilmore's arm is around him, it is not touching him and therefore, not pass interference He's running right into him. Helmet to helmet contact. Arm wrapped inside the receiver like that will get a call every time. The only reason it's debatable is because of how quickly it happened. Edited November 14, 2014 by finfanfromrochester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 He looked like he knew what he was doing when he was a ref..........Kind of exposes them to be the idiots that they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubs Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 A sport that has gotten to the point that rule enforcement is so pervasive as a result of it's hypertechnical nature is not enjoyable. Unrelated example - the tuck rule game. Any rule that turns an obvious fumble into an incomplete pass and changes the fortunes of two franchises is ridiculous. Rule book nerds will look and that and say they got the call right. Football players will look at that as a travesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 (edited) I mean that image pretty clearly shows the ball still in the air while contact is being made by the defender. No it does not. In your screen shot, the ball is not in view. Plus, if you look at a close up of that freeze frame, although Gilmore's arm is around Wallace, there is a question of whether there's contact before the ball arrives. By the time there's clear contact, the ball hits Gilmore's right arm. By pure definition, that's not PI. Edited November 14, 2014 by GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubs Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 No it does not. In your screen shot, the ball is not in view. Um, not to point out the obvious, but that persons screen name is "finfanfromrochester", yet is on Bills message boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I remember that San Francisco game. That was one of the worst officiated games I've ever seen. The last drive of the first half, 18 plays and 8 of them penalties. Antonio Langham was Walt Coleman's B word on that drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 (edited) He's running right into him. Helmet to helmet contact. Arm wrapped inside the receiver like that will get a call every time. The only reason it's debatable is because of how quickly it happened. Not seeing it man. The arm warp occurs with the best of 'em. But anyway his arm was around him not on him til the same spilt second the ball arrived .. It's all good either way. Trying to move on. We woulda lost to you guys any way. Edited November 14, 2014 by 34-78-83 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I think the entire Bills team minus the front 4 on Defense were brutal. I saw so many missed tackles it was embarassing CBF Even Marrone admitted thatdisclaimer: I did not watch the game. I listened. but i saw Marrones post game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finfanfromrochester Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 (edited) No it does not. In your screen shot, the ball is not in view. Plus, if you look at a close up of that freeze frame, although Gilmore's arm is around Wallace, there is a question of whether there's contact before the ball arrives. By the time there's clear contact, the ball hits Gilmore's right arm. By pure definition, that's not PI. You need to look again. The ball is clearly in view on the left side. It's just blurry. I'll circle it if you'd like. Edited November 14, 2014 by finfanfromrochester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 You need to look again. The ball is clearly in view on the left side. It's just blurry. I'll circle it if you'd like. And again it's not a clear image. If the ball is blurry, so is Gilmore's contact with Wallace. Watch it on a HD display and freeze at the exact point when the ball arrives. That's when gilmore makes clear contact. But at that time, he also touches the ball. That's why it's not PI, because it was simultaneous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSBill Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Bills have won 9 out 14 games with Walt Coleman Damn, don't let the facts get in the way of a rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finfanfromrochester Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 And again it's not a clear image. If the ball is blurry, so is Gilmore's contact with Wallace. Watch it on a HD display and freeze at the exact point when the ball arrives. That's when gilmore makes clear contact. But at that time, he also touches the ball. That's why it's not PI, because it was simultaneous. The ball is only blurry because it's moving at a higher speed than the players, and the photo is focused on the players, not the ball. The contact between the two is most definitely evident while the ball is still in the air, based on that image. But still my point is that if I had been watching that in real time, I wouldn't ever call it PI. It was a bang-bang play. All I was saying was that once you freeze the shot, one could still technically make the argument it is PI. Even though it's only a difference of milliseconds, there's contact beforehand. If PI worked like that around the league though, there would be 5-10 more penalties a game. So I am actually in agreement with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah John Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 (edited) Where to start. The reason Coleman hates the Bills is that Ralph Wilson tried to get the NFL to bar him from doing any Bills games, after two outrageous calls in the 1998 game in Foxboro gave the Pats a game. First was the famous "just give it to 'em" shift of a ball forward by at least two yards after a Pats reception, keeping a drive alive. And then at the end, Bledsoe threw a hail Mary which was knocked down, with the normal amount of contact in the end zone, and PI was called, allowing Bledsoe to complete a 1 yard pass to Ben Coates after time ran out. Wade Phillips pulled his team off the field in protest, so the Pats got a 2 pt conversion against no one on the other side. The definition of intentional grounding that's discussed on the air is the ball has to be within five yards of the receiver. Not so. Look at the definition on the NFL page: http://www.nfl.com/r...g "Intentional grounding will be called when a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion." Mike Carey, a former ref, should know that. If Watkins had been looking back, he could have made a play on the ball. Who knows what the route was supposed to be, and what adjustments Watkins was making based on the coverage. There is no way that call should have been made. The PI call on Gilmore was the worst actual call of the night. (There were several non-calls that were actually worse.) Here's the page on the NFL rule on PI: http://www.nfl.com/r...erference It includes the following text: Actions that do not constitute pass interference include but are not limited to: (a) Incidental contact by a defender’s hands, arms, or body when both players are competing for the ball, or neither player is looking for the ball. If there is any question whether contact is incidental, the ruling shall be no interference. (b) Inadvertent tangling of feet when both players are playing the ball or neither player is playing the ball. © Contact that would normally be considered pass interference, but the pass is clearly uncatchable by the involved players. (d) Laying a hand on a receiver that does not restrict the receiver in an attempt to make a play on the ball. (e) Contact by a defender who has gained position on a receiver in an attempt to catch the ball. Gilmore got his right arm in as the ball arrived and knocked it away. A terrific, athletic move. His left arm touched the receiver's back but DID NOT restrict the receiver in any way. The really scary thing is that Coleman and his crew are graded out by the league as one of the top crews. I guess their scoring system throws out their best game and their worst game of the year, so they get to crap all over the field once per year and keep their jobs, and actually do playoff games some years. Yikes. Edited November 15, 2014 by Utah John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 (edited) The Hughes unsportsmanlike call reminded me of what Andre Reed did in the 1998 playoff game down there...trying to get up, he accidentally bumps into the ref, so he throws a flag. Yes, Hughes was probably going after a Dolphin to get in his face, but clearly didn't intend to bump into the ref. Apparently, the Bills have to be careful about everything they say and do for the rest of the year...while the Pats and Fins can say whatever the H they want. It looked pretty clear that Mario and satele were getting into it and the ref was putting a stop to that. Hughes probably shouldn't have been rushing over there to escalate the situation and once he bumped the ref- it became totally up to the ref. don't love the call as it seemed pretty minor but it seemed like a spot where Hughes was playing a dumb game and got a dumb prize. Edited November 15, 2014 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Regarding the Intentional Grounding call.....interpreting the rule as they did on Thursday would mean that every overthrown ball (missing by 5+ yards) that is thrown just before the QB is hit should be IG. So too should every pass that goes wildly out of bounds, or simply wildly off target. Seems typical that the rediculous version of the rule gets called against the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Regarding the Intentional Grounding call.....interpreting the rule as they did on Thursday would mean that every overthrown ball (missing by 5+ yards) that is thrown just before the QB is hit should be IG. So too should every pass that goes wildly out of bounds, or simply wildly off target. Seems typical that the rediculous version of the rule gets called against the Bills. and how about when a QB is about to get sacked and on his way to the ground throws the ball at the RBs feet? Refs always say there was a player in the area when really QB is trying to avoid a sack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 and how about when a QB is about to get sacked and on his way to the ground throws the ball at the RBs feet? Refs always say there was a player in the area when really QB is trying to avoid a sack. Because they aren't supposed to use conjecture to get to the intent as far as I know. They did here. While I'd argue that their conjecture was probably right- I dont think they should have used it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts