Austin Davis is going to be a very good QB---undrafted rookie

[What a Tuel]

Most did not but there were some who did. And lots and lots of people wanted to give him 2 years as the unconditional starter. That's not really what gets me. I just find it amusing how many in the crowd that said you have no idea what kind of QB you have before he's played two full seasons are ripping other guys to shreds who have all of a half dozen starts under their belts with no sense of irony whatsoever.

 

When someone takes on the attributes of a flawed argument, they are pointing out the hypocrisy of the people toting that brand of argument. They are usually poking holes in the argument itself, rather than partaking in it realistically. Case in point is when I mentioned Davis's poor stats. I wasn't bashing him, I was pointing out that he had EJ Manuel like stats, and you guys think he is the Rams franchise QB. I guess he passes the eye test.

 

I have no doubt that if Austin Davis was here, and went 1-4 we would be in the same predicament. Suddenly his flaws would become apparent, and supposedly he will never get any better than he is displaying right now.

 

I am all for the Rams developing Austin Davis, he looks like a good prospect. I am also all for the Bills developing Manuel, whether it's on the bench or starting, he is not a lost cause.

Edited October 15, 2014 by What a Tuel

[26CornerBlitz]

What happened to the Kirk Cousins worship?

[YoloinOhio]

What happened to the Kirk Cousins worship?

Washington No-name fans now want Colt McCoy to start.

[Tyrod's Tailor]

What happened to the Kirk Cousins worship?

 

Film.

[section122]

Right now is the key word. Manuel has much more upside than Orton, but you have the same type people on your side saying Manuel will never be or should never be an NFL QB.

 

This is what bothers me. We know what Orton is and well it ain't good. We don't know what Manuel is yet.

 

As for the Detroit game that "there is no way Manuel wins because he couldn't hit that throw to Goodwin." Well maybe he doesn't make that terrible throw to Sammy that gets taken to the house. As for this weeks game, maybe he doesn't take that ridiculously bad sack where Orton stared at the guy barreling down on him, maybe he doesn't throw the pick, or fumble when he gets hit. Nobody knows what he would have done. I do know at halftime of the Pats* game I thought to myself Orton has done absolutely nothing in this game that EJ couldn't have. This whole 300 yards passing means squat to me. Orton has had some nice throws and I think RIGHT NOW he is better than EJ. That doesn't mean that EJ couldn't have the same 1-1 record Orton had. In that Detroit game the defense gave up 7 points! EJ is intriguing for the future, Orton is not.

 

Davis is intriguing right now but he had a terrible second half and it will be interesting to see if he can sustain it ala Tony Romo or fizzle like so many others (Cousins is a great example). I am interested to see how EJ is going forward and hope that he does indeed turn into a franchise caliber player. I completely understand the move to Orton though that doesn't mean I really like it.

[Rob's House]

When someone takes on the attributes of a flawed argument, they are pointing out the hypocrisy of the people toting that brand of argument. They are usually poking holes in the argument itself, rather than partaking in it realistically. Case in point is when I mentioned Davis's poor stats. I wasn't bashing him, I was pointing out that he had EJ Manuel like stats, and you guys think he is the Rams franchise QB. I guess he passes the eye test.

 

I have no doubt that if Austin Davis was here, and went 1-4 we would be in the same predicament. Suddenly his flaws would become apparent, and supposedly he will never get any better than he is displaying right now.

 

I am all for the Rams developing Austin Davis, he looks like a good prospect. I am also all for the Bills developing Manuel, whether it's on the bench or starting, he is not a lost cause.

 

If Austin Davis was a Bill I doubt you could find more than 3 people demanding we go all in on him and not draft another QB this year for fear of shaking his confidence.

[26CornerBlitz]

This is what bothers me. We know what Orton is and well it ain't good. We don't know what Manuel is yet.

 

As for the Detroit game that "there is no way Manuel wins because he couldn't hit that throw to Goodwin." Well maybe he doesn't make that terrible throw to Sammy that gets taken to the house. As for this weeks game, maybe he doesn't take that ridiculously bad sack where Orton stared at the guy barreling down on him, maybe he doesn't throw the pick, or fumble when he gets hit. Nobody knows what he would have done. I do know at halftime of the Pats* game I thought to myself Orton has done absolutely nothing in this game that EJ couldn't have. This whole 300 yards passing means squat to me. Orton has had some nice throws and I think RIGHT NOW he is better than EJ. That doesn't mean that EJ couldn't have the same 1-1 record Orton had. In that Detroit game the defense gave up 7 points! EJ is intriguing for the future, Orton is not.

 

Davis is intriguing right now but he had a terrible second half and it will be interesting to see if he can sustain it ala Tony Romo or fizzle like so many others (Cousins is a great example). I am interested to see how EJ is going forward and hope that he does indeed turn into a franchise caliber player. I completely understand the move to Orton though that doesn't mean I really like it.

 

Did I imagine this? http://www.buffalobills.com/video/videos/Buffalo-Bills-wide-receiver-Marquise-Goodwin-shows-off-his-speed/eaa9b5ae-71e3-4735-a9e7-731248cda21c

[Buftex]

Most important, in all of this...do I pick up Austin Davis as my one week fantasy football starter against the Bucs, in two weeks, when Jay Cutler is on the bye?

[Beerball]

Austin Davis was born in Ringgold, GA. Ringgold, GA. Sounds a lot like Reingold. Reingold? Chester Reingold, our former OL. We really missed out on manifestdestiny. The cosmic forces of combining a player from Ringgold with Chester Reingold would have been as powerful as 9000 suns.

the warning that I've received you may take it with how many however many grains of salt you wish, that the brown acid that is circulating around us is not specifically too good. Uh, it's suggested that you do stay away from that, course it's your own trip, so be my guest, but, uh, please be advised that there is a warning on that one ok?

[Buftex]

Did I imagine this? http://www.buffalobi...e7-731248cda21c

 

Ah...EJ's best game. I get your point (and I am an "EJ guy" so I am not bashing), but that pass that you linked is a different kind of throw than the one that Orton threw to Goodwin in that Lions game. I think EJ can overthrow coverage to a guy who has beaten coverage, as in the play you linked. It is those outside passes, along the sideline, where he really has struggled. He had one very nice one earlier in the season to Chandler (can't remember which game now....my memory sucks!), but it is not his strength. EJ's arm strength has never been in question, it is that damned accuracy issue that won't go away.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Buftex

[Rob's House]

This is what bothers me. We know what Orton is and well it ain't good. We don't know what Manuel is yet.

 

 

Really? And you know this how? Based on 2 games?

 

I'm just curious. If Matt Stafford were our QB would you bench him for EJ?

 

Because Orton has played better over the last 2 games than stafford. Both play for teams that are 1-1 over the last two weeks, but Orton has had the better statistical performance. To be fair, Stafford had to go up against the big bad Vikings last week. Let's compare:

 

Orton - 54/81, 607 yds, 66.7% comp, 7.5 ypa, 3 TDs, 2 INTs, 7 sacks, 1 fumble

 

Stafford - 37/64, 416 yds, 57.8% comp, 6.5 ypa, 2 TDs, 1 INT, 10 sacks, 2 fumbles

 

Did I imagine this? http://www.buffalobi...e7-731248cda21c

 

That's not a comparable play. On the one you linked Goodwin was single covered and the ball just had to be thrown past the defender. On the pass Orton made the safety was coming over and the ball had to be placed precisely where it was to stay in bounds and avoid the safety. Not to take anything away from Manuel for making a good throw, but those are simply not comparable plays.

[26CornerBlitz]

Ah...EJ's best game. I get your point (and I am an "EJ guy" so I am not bashing), but that pass that you linked is a different kind of throw than the one that Orton threw to Goodwin in that Lions game. I think EJ can overthrow coverage to a guy who has beaten coverage, as in the play you linked. It is those outside passes, along the sideline, where he really has struggled. He had one very nice one earlier in the season to Chandler (can't remember which game now....my memory sucks!), but it is not his strength. EJ's arm strength has never been in question, it is that damned accuracy issue that won't go away.

 

I agree that has been a weakness of EJ's. Although he did throw a couple of nice balls in the Miami game to Chandler and Sammy (late PBU by Grimes) that were similar to Orton's DET throw Goodwin.

[section122]

Did I imagine this? http://www.buffalobi...e7-731248cda21c

 

Dude don't you know? EJ has never done anything that shows he could be a starter in this league!

 

Really? And you know this how? Based on 2 games?

 

I'm just curious. If Matt Stafford were our QB would you bench him for EJ?

 

Because Orton has played better over the last 2 games than stafford. Both play for teams that are 1-1 over the last two weeks, but Orton has had the better statistical performance. To be fair, Stafford had to go up against the big bad Vikings last week. Let's compare:

 

Orton - 54/81, 607 yds, 66.7% comp, 7.5 ypa, 3 TDs, 2 INTs, 7 sacks, 1 fumble

 

Stafford - 37/64, 416 yds, 57.8% comp, 6.5 ypa, 2 TDs, 1 INT, 10 sacks, 2 fumbles

 

 

 

That's not a comparable play. On the one you linked Goodwin was single covered and the ball just had to be thrown past the defender. On the pass Orton made the safety was coming over and the ball had to be placed precisely where it was to stay in bounds and avoid the safety. Not to take anything away from Manuel for making a good throw, but those are simply not comparable plays.

 

You do realize that Orton has had a career before these last 2 weeks right? One where he has a career 58.8 completion percentage, one where he has a career 80.2 QB rating, one where he averages 202.9 yards per game.

 

Also Stafford is a bad comparison to make to me because I am in the opinion that he also isn't very good. A lot of QBs would look as good as he has if they had Calvin Johnson to throw to. In his last 2 games that you referenced guess who wasn't on the field?

 

My original point about the throw Orton made "to win the game" is that nobody knows if that throw would even have been necessary to make. Maybe an EJ led offense scores more than 7 points by that point in time and the throw isn't even necessary. Orton has led the team to 17 and 22 points, while throwing 2 picks and fumbling once. Orton is mediocre at best and hoping at 31 years old that he will have a Gannon like resurgence is more than I am willing to do. EJ is an unknown commodity at this point. I don't even mind the fact that Orton is starting as I think a change needed to be made or the locker room would revolt. I also stated that RIGHT NOW Orton is a better QB. I think EJ still has a chance to end up as a better qb than Orton in the end is all I am saying. I am sick of this Orton got the team to 1-1 and EJ NEVER could have done that.

 

I agree that has been a weakness of EJ's. Although he did throw a couple of nice balls in the Miami game to Chandler and Sammy (late PBU by Grimes) that were similar to Orton's DET throw Goodwin.

The Chandler throw is very near to the Orton throw with the exception of timing in the game. I am interested to see what will happen if EJ truly does "let it rip" when(if) he gets back out there.

Edited October 15, 2014 by section122

[Rob's House]

Dude don't you know? EJ has never done anything that shows he could be a starter in this league!

 

 

 

You do realize that Orton has had a career before these last 2 weeks right? One where he has a career 58.8 completion percentage, one where he has a career 80.2 QB rating, one where he averages 202.9 yards per game.

 

Also Stafford is a bad comparison to make to me because I am in the opinion that he also isn't very good. A lot of QBs would look as good as he has if they had Calvin Johnson to throw to. In his last 2 games that you referenced guess who wasn't on the field?

 

My original point about the throw Orton made "to win the game" is that nobody knows if that throw would even have been necessary to make. Maybe an EJ led offense scores more than 7 points by that point in time and the throw isn't even necessary. Orton has led the team to 17 and 22 points, while throwing 2 picks and fumbling once. Orton is mediocre at best and hoping at 31 years old that he will have a Gannon like resurgence is more than I am willing to do. EJ is an unknown commodity at this point. I don't even mind the fact that Orton is starting as I think a change needed to be made or the locker room would revolt. I also stated that RIGHT NOW Orton is a better QB. I think EJ still has a chance to end up as a better qb than Orton in the end is all I am saying. I am sick of this Orton got the team to 1-1 and EJ NEVER could have done that.

 

 

The Chandler throw is very near to the Orton throw with the exception of timing in the game. I am interested to see what will happen if EJ truly does "let it rip" when(if) he gets back out there.

 

If that's the basis of your argument I think it's flawed. It ignores that Orton has progressed throughout his career in ways that most QBs don't. Many QBs picked higher than Orton have come into and exited the NFL since he was drafted, but he's still here, now starting, because he improved. His last stint in Denver he put up respectable numbers over 2 seasons with a QB rating around 87 and averaging over 250 yds/game.

 

Backing up Romo he didn't see the field but he's still been practicing. To say he can't or hasn't improved since his time in Denver seems to be a baseless claim to me.

[sjjr]

Austin Davis is a nice story but his lack of elite tools showed as the 49ers picked on what the Rams we're doing. He should be a solid #2 for somebody at least.

 

When EJ was drafted, most scouts and scouting reports said he needed development and there would be struggles if he hit the field early. He's shown improvement but he's definitely a work in progress. My frustration is the Bills drafted a project, pledged their faith in developing him and his future as the franchise QB...then a few days before the season bring in a guy like Orton to rattle the team, EJ and fans.

 

The Bills game plan is to play conservatively for the first three quarters and go out and win the game in the 4th qtr with Orton or EJ. To me EJ runs that gameplan better because he's more careful with the football. He's also a much better runner and helps the run game. Stats back that up this season. All people are remembering is probably his worst game as a pro against Houston. He accounted for 6 TDs and only 3 turnovers in 4 games. He was 2-2. He's a kid and has ups and downs. All young QBs do.

 

I don't know if he's the franchise QB going forward but I strongly believe he deserves a handful of starts yet before anyone passes judgement on him.

[Orton's Arm]

Right now is the key word. Manuel has much more upside than Orton, but you have the same type people on your side saying Manuel will never be or should never be an NFL QB.

 

A quarterback's upside can be divided into three categories:

Physical

Mental

Accuracy

 

Physical upside: Manuel has Orton beat, hands down.

Mental: as college QBs, Orton did far more to demonstrate mental upside than Manuel.

Accuracy: Orton was a more accurate college QB than Manuel.

 

If you meant that Manuel has more physical upside than Orton; I agree completely. But there is no reason to think Manuel has more overall upside.

[C.Biscuit97]

A quarterback's upside can be divided into three categories:

Physical

Mental

Accuracy

 

Physical upside: Manuel has Orton beat, hands down.

Mental: as college QBs, Orton did far more to demonstrate mental upside than Manuel.

Accuracy: Orton was a more accurate college QB than Manuel.

 

If you meant that Manuel has more physical upside than Orton; I agree completely. But there is no reason to think Manuel has more overall upside.

 

Where are you getting your information from? Orton completed 58.8% of his college passes (right on par with his NFL #s) at 7 ypa. http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/kyle-orton-1.html

 

EJ completed 66.9% of his passes at 8.6 ypa. http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/ej-manuel-1.html

 

So even though Manuel completed a higher % of passes at a higher yard per attempt, Orton was the more accurate college passer? How does that even make sense?

[Orton's Arm]

Where are you getting your information from? Orton completed 58.8% of his college passes (right on par with his NFL #s) at 7 ypa. http://www.sports-re...le-orton-1.html

 

EJ completed 66.9% of his passes at 8.6 ypa. http://www.sports-re...j-manuel-1.html

 

So even though Manuel completed a higher % of passes at a higher yard per attempt, Orton was the more accurate college passer? How does that even make sense?

 

Tim Tebow put up great numbers as a college passer. That doesn't mean he was particularly accurate or good at reading defenses. In college, there is often a great mismatch between different teams' talent levels. A quarterback on a very good college team--like FSU--can put up shining numbers, even if he himself doesn't do anything special.

 

A pre-draft scouting report indicated Orton "has the field-reading skills of a 10 year NFL vet." I compare that to the pre-draft scouting reports of Manuel; which indicated that he only had to make one read in his simplified college offense. Orton's scouting report also indicated that "good timing is a huge part of his play." I have not seen anything--either in scouting reports, the college film I've watched, or his play in the NFL--which would indicate Manuel is good at hitting moving targets. So that's another advantage Orton has over Manuel.

 

Not only did the pre-draft scouting reports on Manuel raise questions about his ability to hit moving targets, but his accuracy as a whole was drawn into question. If you watch his college highlight video you'll see what I mean. There are no special throws in that video. No throws that only an NFL quarterback could make. Sometimes what you don't see is just as important as what you do.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Orton's Arm

[K-9]

Tim Tebow put up great numbers as a college passer. That doesn't mean he was particularly accurate or good at reading defenses. In college, there is often a great mismatch between different teams' talent levels. A quarterback on a very good college team--like FSU--can put up shining numbers, even if he himself doesn't do anything special.

 

A pre-draft scouting report indicated Orton "has the field-reading skills of a 10 year NFL vet." I compare that to the pre-draft scouting reports of Manuel; which indicated that he only had to make one read in his simplified college offense. Orton's scouting report also indicated that "good timing is a huge part of his play." I have not seen anything--either in scouting reports, the college film I've watched, or his play in the NFL--which would indicate Manuel is good at hitting moving targets. So that's another advantage Orton has over Manuel.

 

Not only did the pre-draft scouting reports on Manuel raise questions about his ability to hit moving targets, but his accuracy as a whole was drawn into question. If you watch his college highlight video you'll see what I mean. There are no special throws in that video. No throws that only an NFL quarterback could make. Sometimes what you don't see is just as important as what you do.

 

For the umpteenth time, this is utter bullschit. Not one ounce of truth to it. And if it were true, then Jimbo Fisher would be, hands down, the dumbest football coach on the planet. No coach in his right mind, DELIBERATELY takes away half the field from his offense. So feel free to condemn EJ Mauel's "mental bandwidth", but please don't continue to base it on this propaganda.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[metzelaars_lives]

Did I imagine this? http://www.buffalobi...e7-731248cda21c

Two totally different plays. Manuel threw a nice deep ball to Sammy Watkins against Miami this year too. I never said he's never thrown a good pass in his life. Jeff Tuel and Thad Lewis also hit Goodwin on similar plays last year where he had his man beat. The Orton pass against Detroit had to be fit in a tight space between two defenders and it was a pass that- if we can't agree on this, we'll never agree on anything ever- Manuel, with his shaken confidence and ever-increasing timid and apprehensive nature, never even dreams of attempting.

 

What really irks me right now are the EJ supporters who say, "hey he may be conservative but at least he doesn't turn the ball over." I could play QB for the Bills this weekend and not turn the ball over. Naturally a guy who doesn't attempt any passes to wide receivers more than five yards downfield who aren't wide open isn't going to turn the ball over as much. I know that Orton is good for one lousy looking interception every game. That's why he's a journeyman QB. But I'll still take him over Manuel and his 3 completions for 17 yards on 12 targets to Robert Woods in the Houston game.

Edited October 15, 2014 by metzelaars_lives