C.Biscuit97 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 believe me, i would LOVE to be wrong about this one. Hate to say it but everybody's favorite punching bag schopp continually points out that our perception of Manuel would be totally different if he was drafted as a third round flier as he shoud have been. I mean duh. We have let him develop more, maybe even get him a qb coach his rookie year! But instead, we are pushing all out chips in on a journeyman with a .500 who was worse than EJ as a rookie. The Bills are one of the worst franchises at developing young Qbs. I don't think Little Marty S is a great OC but I'd trade him for Hackett in a second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 believe me, i would LOVE to be wrong about this one. Hate to say it but everybody's favorite punching bag schopp continually points out that our perception of Manuel would be totally different if he was drafted as a third round flier as he shoud have been. Think about that statement for a minute. It's totally non-sensical from a football point of view. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I mean duh. We have let him develop more, maybe even get him a qb coach his rookie year! But instead, we are pushing all out chips in on a journeyman with a .500 who was worse than EJ as a rookie. The Bills are one of the worst franchises at developing young Qbs. I don't think Little Marty S is a great OC but I'd trade him for Hackett in a second. JP would've been so good elsewhere! Trent would be an All-Pro on the Giants! Take a look at our red zone offense with Orton please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Think about that statement for a minute. It's totally non-sensical from a football point of view. GO BILLS!!! Why? The point is that if he was drafted in the third round people might be quicker to acknowledge that the kid simply isn't a starting caliber NFL QB, whereas now too many people are saying that we drafted this guy in the first round, how dare we throw in the towel on his development this soon. Let me ask you this- when is the height of you believing Manuel was going to be our franchise QB? For me, I'd say the Carolina game last year. Since that game, he has played in three, maybe four games that I would classify as serviceable (NYJ, ATL, CHI and MIA this year). When is the last time he threw a pass where you said to yourself, "damn that was a nice ball?" Orton threw about ten great balls yesterday. I compare Manuel to the girl you meet on the dating website who looks rough in 9 out of her 10 pictures and you say to yourself, just maybe she could be cute but you meet her anyway and, of course, she's gross. That's how I feel about Manuel. I'd like to believe it's possible he develops into a starting caliber NFL QB but deep down in my heart, I know it's not happening. I mean duh. We have let him develop more, maybe even get him a qb coach his rookie year! But instead, we are pushing all out chips in on a journeyman with a .500 who was worse than EJ as a rookie. The Bills are one of the worst franchises at developing young Qbs. I don't think Little Marty S is a great OC but I'd trade him for Hackett in a second. How good Kyle Orton looked in 2005 means absolutely nothing to me. Beating the Lions meant something to me and that simply would not have happened with Manuel at QB. Edited October 14, 2014 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 JP would've been so good elsewhere! Trent would be an All-Pro on the Giants! Take a look at our red zone offense with Orton please. Who knows. But you can give your young qb a better chance. Giving them First time NFL OCs and no qb coach isn't helping them succeed. Why? The point is that if he was drafted in the third round people might be quicker to acknowledge that the kid simply isn't a starting caliber NFL QB, whereas now too many people are saying that we drafted this guy in the first round, how dare we throw in the towel on his development this soon. Let me ask you this- when is the height of you believing Manuel was going to be our franchise QB? For me, I'd say the Carolina game last year. Since that game, he has played in three, maybe four games that I would classify as serviceable (NYJ, ATL, CHI and MIA this year). When is the last time he threw a pass where you said to yourself, "damn that was a nice ball?" Orton threw about ten great balls yesterday. I compare Manuel to the girl you meet on the dating website who looks rough in 9 out of her 10 pictures and you say to yourself, just maybe she could be cute but you meet her anyway and, of course, she's gross. That's how I feel about Manuel. I'd like to believe it's possible he develops into a starting caliber NFL QB but deep down in my heart, I know it's not happening. How good Kyle Orton looked in 2005 means absolutely nothing to me. Beating the Lions meant something to me and that simply would not have happened with Manuel at QB. We considered we had at least 1 td in every one of EJ's starts, it's not a stretch to say he could match the whooping one td we put up against Detroit. And Davis with the game clinching pick 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Why? The point is that if he was drafted in the third round people might be quicker to acknowledge that the kid simply isn't a starting caliber NFL QB, whereas now too many people are saying that we drafted this guy in the first round, how dare we throw in the towel on his development this soon. Let me ask you this- when is the height of you believing Manuel was going to be our franchise QB? For me, I'd say the Carolina game last year. Since that game, he has played in three, maybe four games that I would classify as serviceable (NYJ, ATL, CHI and MIA this year). When is the last time he threw a pass where you said to yourself, "damn that was a nice ball?" Orton threw about ten great balls yesterday. Please don't confuse "fan point of view" with "football point of view." Where a player is drafted does nothing to change his ability to play or not. The height of when I thought Manuel was our franchise QB? I haven't been convinced of that yet as he's a work in progress. I'd like to see what he's like after 1,000 attempts, although he's been impressive at times. I was never under any illusions as I've known since day one he was gonna be a work in progress; a raw prospect with certain attributes that jump off the charts and others that need work. He's feeling the pressure of not being able to meet coach and fan expectations and that's evident by his fear of pulling the trigger and being impatient in the pocket. If he can't handle that moving forward then I guess I have my answer. But my first litmus test for a QB is how he responds to adversity and I'm looking forward to seeing how he does in that regard. Whether it's this year or not, whether it's with us or not. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Please don't confuse "fan point of view" with "football point of view." Where a player is drafted does nothing to change his ability to play or not. The height of when I thought Manuel was our franchise QB? I haven't been convinced of that yet as he's a work in progress. I'd like to see what he's like after 1,000 attempts, although he's been impressive at times. I was never under any illusions as I've known since day one he was gonna be a work in progress; a raw prospect with certain attributes that jump off the charts and others that need work. He's feeling the pressure of not being able to meet coach and fan expectations and that's evident by his fear of pulling the trigger and being impatient in the pocket. If he can't handle that moving forward then I guess I have my answer. But my first litmus test for a QB is how he responds to adversity and I'm looking forward to seeing how he does in that regard. Whether it's this year or not, whether it's with us or not. GO BILLS!!! That's really well said and sums up my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxer Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 That's really well said and sums up my thoughts. I would say of many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Who knows. But you can give your young qb a better chance. Giving them First time NFL OCs and no qb coach isn't helping them succeed. That does not appear to be changing anytime soon so what makes you think just leaving EJ in there with the same situation will make him better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Please don't confuse "fan point of view" with "football point of view." Where a player is drafted does nothing to change his ability to play or not. The height of when I thought Manuel was our franchise QB? I haven't been convinced of that yet as he's a work in progress. I'd like to see what he's like after 1,000 attempts, although he's been impressive at times. I was never under any illusions as I've known since day one he was gonna be a work in progress; a raw prospect with certain attributes that jump off the charts and others that need work. He's feeling the pressure of not being able to meet coach and fan expectations and that's evident by his fear of pulling the trigger and being impatient in the pocket. If he can't handle that moving forward then I guess I have my answer. But my first litmus test for a QB is how he responds to adversity and I'm looking forward to seeing how he does in that regard. Whether it's this year or not, whether it's with us or not. GO BILLS!!! I wouldn't disagree with anything you wrote there. If the Bills didn't have so much talent on defense and the skill positions on offense AND they had their #1 pick next year AND they didn't have a guy behind him making $5.5 million who is clearly capable of playing in the NFL right now, I would be much more inclined to let EJ take some more lumps this year and see what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I wouldn't disagree with anything you wrote there. If the Bills didn't have so much talent on defense and the skill positions on offense AND they had their #1 pick next year AND they didn't have a guy behind him making $5.5 million who is clearly capable of playing in the NFL right now, I would be much more inclined to let EJ take some more lumps this year and see what happened. It's fully understandable why the coaches sat him in favor of Orton though. Like Marrone said, we needed better play out of that position and EJ was really pressing. New coaches looking to make their mark often aren't afforded the luxury of developing young QBs. And with the new regime coming in, that was really magnified. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Looks like the OP got caught in the hype of the 1st half. 21/42 236 yards and 1 td 1 int (pick six) Let the acceptable excuses for his performance begin. Edited October 14, 2014 by What a Tuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Who knows. But you can give your young qb a better chance. Giving them First time NFL OCs and no qb coach isn't helping them succeed. We considered we had at least 1 td in every one of EJ's starts, it's not a stretch to say he could match the whooping one td we put up against Detroit. And Davis with the game clinching pick 6. Dude come on man. Don't add up TD's per start. OK, EJ put up 2, 1, 1, 2. Wonderful. Detroit has the #1 defense in the league and he went in there on the road and won us that game. Wins above replacement my friend. If you think we win that game with Manuel- or at least the way Manuel played the previous two weeks- you are delusional at best. Ask yourself this- does Manuel attempt that pass to Goodwin? If he attempts it, does he put it right there? In the Houston game, Robert Woods was targeted 12 times and had 3 catches for 17 yards. I wonder if you polled Woods and Watkins, who they would say they prefer. And do NOT cite the Miami game. I never said Manuel couldn't hit guys that had no one within 15 yards of them. The guy just does not have the ability to attempt to or, much less, put the pall into a tight space. Kyle Orton does. It's probably the most important attribute of an NFL QB. Edited October 14, 2014 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisplacedBillsFan Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Looks like the OP got caught in the hype of the 1st half. 21/42 236 yards and 1 td 1 int (pick six) Let the acceptable excuses for his performance begin. Yep. That pick 6 on a potential game tying drive would have had the pitchforks and torches out for EJ. Those same posters will make some excuse for Davis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Yep. That pick 6 on a potential game tying drive would have had the pitchforks and torches out for EJ. Those same posters will make some excuse for Davis. Don't care about Austin Davis. If wings came out of his jersey and he flew over all the players into the endzone, it still does not change the fact that EJ Manuel had lost all his confidence, refused to attempt passes to wide receivers more than five yards downfield unless they were wide open and cost us a football game. WAR. With Manuel playing 6 games this season, we're 2-4. With Orton, we're 4-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Don't care about Austin Davis. If wings came out of his jersey and he flew over all the players into the endzone, it still does not change the fact that EJ Manuel had lost all his confidence, refused to attempt passes to wide receivers more than five yards downfield unless they were wide open and cost us a football game. WAR. With Manuel playing 6 games this season, we're 2-4. With Orton, we're 4-2. With Manuel we are 2-2, and with Orton we are 1-1. You can try and revise history all you want, but Manuel did not play against Detroit and New England, and Orton did not play against our first 4 opponents. You can't attribute wins/losses for games a QB has not played, or else you should go to Vegas, and place some bets on some obvious winners. Feel free to share some of the wealth. Edit: Also Austin Davis and EJ Manuel are tied with 13 - 20+ yard catches (Not counting this week). Edited October 14, 2014 by What a Tuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Don't care about Austin Davis. If wings came out of his jersey and he flew over all the players into the endzone, it still does not change the fact that EJ Manuel had lost all his confidence, refused to attempt passes to wide receivers more than five yards downfield unless they were wide open and cost us a football game. WAR. With Manuel playing 6 games this season, we're 2-4. With Orton, we're 4-2. This is both willfully ignorant of how the WAR stat is applied in baseball, and it's making stuff up to apply a baseball stat to a football projection for an imagined scenario. Well done? With Manuel we are 2-2, and with Orton we are 1-1. You can try and revise history all you want, but Manuel did not play against Detroit and New England, and Orton did not play against our first 4 opponents. You can't attribute wins/losses for games a QB has not played, or else you should go to Vegas, and place some bets on some obvious winners. Feel free to share some of the wealth. Take it easy on metz, he has some inside info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 With Manuel we are 2-2, and with Orton we are 1-1. You can try and revise history all you want, but Manuel did not play against Detroit and New England, and Orton did not play against our first 4 opponents. You can't attribute wins/losses for games a QB has not played, or else you should go to Vegas, and place some bets on some obvious winners. Feel free to share some of the wealth. happy to. If Kyle Orton played at the level he has played the last two games against Houston, we win that game going away. If Ej Manuel payed at the level he had played in his previous two starts against detroit, we lose that game going away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 happy to. If Kyle Orton played at the level he has played the last two games against Houston, we win that game going away. If Ej Manuel payed at the level he had played in his previous two starts against detroit, we lose that game going away. Kyle Orton would be even worse at getting away from JJ Watt than was Manuel. I wouldn't be so sure about that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) happy to. If Kyle Orton played at the level he has played the last two games against Houston, we win that game going away. If Ej Manuel payed at the level he had played in his previous two starts against detroit, we lose that game going away. It's just that easy huh? What about if Watkins catches those drops he had in Houston? Edited October 14, 2014 by What a Tuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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