BillsFanM.D. Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I'd let the process play out. As long as you've checked him out (which you clearly stated), and as long as he doesn't do anything egregious....I'd let it be. You'll have an opportunity to 'evaluate' him after the process. I'd save the constructive criticism until then. Otherwise, you might be removed from consideration as you said. If, however, he gets further from acceptable business behavior, you can opt to challenge him/his supervisors at any point along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 what about submitting 'additional writings', i honestly feel at this stage of the game, my resume is all i am willing to send, i am not going to invest extra time and effort when i am still in the first stages of the process...maybe if i get to the hiring manager. I'd let the process play out. As long as you've checked him out (which you clearly stated), and as long as he doesn't do anything egregious....I'd let it be. You'll have an opportunity to 'evaluate' him after the process. I'd save the constructive criticism until then. Otherwise, you might be removed from consideration as you said. If, however, he gets further from acceptable business behavior, you can opt to challenge him/his supervisors at any point along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 what about submitting 'additional writings', i honestly feel at this stage of the game, my resume is all i am willing to send, i am not going to invest extra time and effort when i am still in the first stages of the process...maybe if i get to the hiring manager. I wouldn't even know what that means. Additional writings? Does he want a writing sample? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 its a retail/e-commerce business/data analyst position...maybe he wants to see a pivot table or a sql query...i don't know.... I wouldn't even know what that means. Additional writings? Does he want a writing sample? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I wouldn't even know what that means. Additional writings? Does he want a writing sample? Probably TSW posts. Poojer's going to submit five thousand copies of "I would." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 its a retail/e-commerce business/data analyst position...maybe he wants to see a pivot table or a sql query...i don't know.... He's probably applying for a job and trying to get you to do his interview homework for him. Sounds pretty shady to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Copy and paste a Nigerian Prince's email string asking for his bank account and PIN numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
\GoBillsInDallas/ Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I always love threads like this simply because I have trouble finding qualified candidates all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricojes Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) I'm finishing up my masters degree in a few months and yesterday I got my first phone call from a recruiter at a company in St. Paul Minnesota. We talked for a bit and the he asked me a few questions but I had no idea how to answer what my expected salary should be. I've done a few google searches but can find a good way to estimate it. I've never worked outside of the intern/ cashier role so I didn't even know where to begin. Any tips from my fellow Bills fans? Best advise I received for this question was to delay discussions of compensation as long as possible. You are the seller and the interviewer is the buyer. Early discussions of price are always to the seller's disadvantage. Once the buyer has made a firm decision to buy, price negotiations are much easier for the seller. Try to change the subject by saying you need to have more information on the job at hand in order to get a clear understanding of what fair compensation would be. Or I believe we need to discuss the job before discussing compensation further. If that doesn't get you off the hook, you really have no alternative but to answer. In that case you should do some research on starting salaries in your field and decide what's works for you as well... Edited October 14, 2014 by ricojes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 here's one for you. Got several calls and emails from a recruiter about a local job. We finally connected yesterday via phone. All of his messages and emails indicate a very weak grasp of the english language in both conversation and in writing. No biggie, i can look past all that, but more on that in a little bit. We discuss the position, I express interest, he says he will pass it along to the hiring manager. Few minutes pass, I get an email asking to forward my resume and salary requirements, I respond quickly. Phone rings this morning at 7:48AM and he starts talking to me calling me by my last name, in all correspondence I have used my first and last name in the salutation, but he constantly calls me McCarthy and also does so in our email communications. So despite being a bit annoyed that he called before 8AM, I listen and he asks me to submit some 'writings' about the position and how I relate to the position. I ask him if my resume didn't already include all of that information, he says no, he needs 'writings'. I tell him that I will do my best to address it but that I do have a job I need to do, so hopefully I will have some 'writings' to him later today. I get to work and call his number which is local just to see if it is a legit number(i already looked into the recruiting firm he represents) it eventually goes to his voicemail so it seems ok, I look him up on linkedin and it indicates he is local to the philly area, so no issues there. The job is appealing to me, but I am not thrilled about how this person is handling the process, not sure if I should call the agency and express my displeasure in being called before 8AM, being called by my last name, the additional requests for 'writings'. I figure if I complain, my name gets immediately pulled from the candidate pull and while I am not 'actively' looking right now, i like to keep my options open if i see something interesting..... What say you? You're being played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Not sure about that part. It is weird. Without specifics of what he's requesting or how it pertains to position...I have no clue. That may be the 'tipping point' already to moving up the ladder to see what is going on. You could try to contact a supervisor and explain that you're willing to work with this recruiter but you are having a hard time understanding (literally) what it is he wants...and why. Nothing wrong with an honest conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Ask for a face to face interview first. I would do zero work on this until you've had a chance to check out if they're legit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 One job that my son interviewed for wanted a 1 page 30 day plan for what he would do to change things. He gave it to them and they told him he blew everyone else away. They made him an offer but he accepted the other job he was interviewing for. They even came back and offered him more money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gomper Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 As someone who has done my share of hiring.....allow me to give some advice. Never. NEVER quote a # until parameters have been established. Not getting the answer you want? Feeling like your being BS'd? Ask to talk to his/her superior. If they are legit and interested in your ability, any boss worth a s will happily engage. The company will be happy they hired you. Have that attitude.....dont be a dick but be confident. Lord knows, I've hired more on balls than I care to count. It mostly works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPinC Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 SDS had fantastic advice. Another way to weave more into it would be to look at your offer and expectations comprehensively. Say you want to learn more about the area the job is located, what the cost of living is like and how it compares to what you are used to, what about relocation services, benefits, vacation etc... Get the best deal you can. If they are locked into offering you a specific salary range for the position maybe they can sweeten the pot elsewhere, an extra week vacation, company car, etc... Agree with all this great advice. Just a couple perspective things to add: -No company ever gives you their top offer the first time unless they are overly vocal that they are doing just that. -Congrats on the masters, you are a new grad looking for his first job. Because of that, they should have a specific salary/range in mind for you. -Everything involved about the offer(benefits, vacation) is negotiable. -Just don't forget about assessing work environment. This makes a ton of difference to most people. -I always respect potential hires who are asking questions about how the company fits what they feel is important. Obviously you don't want to appear selfish or overly demanding but this is not just responsibilities and a salary. You will spend most of your day here and want to build your career with some degree of life balance and the companies worth working for will appreciate your questions to address this IMO. -Just because you're after your first job, don't take the attitude that you will not stick up for what you want. -Don't be afraid to ask for more but you must be able to justify why, even if it's simply your work ethics and dedication at this point. Just provide specific examples. -Most raises are done by % so being able to negotiate a higher salary means more $$ over time. Makes a big difference in about 5 years and will set the tone for your next job's salary since most companies will at least offer something above a lateral move. -Be careful to appreciate future career/opportunity of the position versus current salary level. If you don't have family costs/responsibilities now is one of the best times in your career to focus on the right opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPinC Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 here's one for you. Got several calls and emails from a recruiter about a local job. We finally connected yesterday via phone. All of his messages and emails indicate a very weak grasp of the english language in both conversation and in writing. No biggie, i can look past all that, but more on that in a little bit. We discuss the position, I express interest, he says he will pass it along to the hiring manager. Few minutes pass, I get an email asking to forward my resume and salary requirements, I respond quickly. Phone rings this morning at 7:48AM and he starts talking to me calling me by my last name, in all correspondence I have used my first and last name in the salutation, but he constantly calls me McCarthy and also does so in our email communications. So despite being a bit annoyed that he called before 8AM, I listen and he asks me to submit some 'writings' about the position and how I relate to the position. I ask him if my resume didn't already include all of that information, he says no, he needs 'writings'. I tell him that I will do my best to address it but that I do have a job I need to do, so hopefully I will have some 'writings' to him later today. I get to work and call his number which is local just to see if it is a legit number(i already looked into the recruiting firm he represents) it eventually goes to his voicemail so it seems ok, I look him up on linkedin and it indicates he is local to the philly area, so no issues there. The job is appealing to me, but I am not thrilled about how this person is handling the process, not sure if I should call the agency and express my displeasure in being called before 8AM, being called by my last name, the additional requests for 'writings'. I figure if I complain, my name gets immediately pulled from the candidate pull and while I am not 'actively' looking right now, i like to keep my options open if i see something interesting..... What say you? I too think you're getting played or the guy is massively incompetent. Recruiting agencies want to present a first class business image to employer clients and candidate clients. As an interested, viable candidate representing potential income for the recruiting company they would be far, far more likely to fire the recruiter than black list you for how the guy has interacted with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Security Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 You should have no issue asking the recruiter what the range is that he is recruiting for, and also no issue asking that person what the current market rate is for a person like yourself as well. They sometimes get paid a flat rate based on placing you, but I have found they make more money, the more money that you make, so it is in this person's best interest to place you at as high of a salary as possible in most cases. Don't be shy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) Welcome to the new world of graduates. With a bachelors degree you are qualified for free labor and thats it. I know plenty of my friends have either had to work at a restaurant or a gym to make ends meet. These days you either work below your degree or get a masters. And I have serious debt. Signed another big loan this morning Not to be a richard here Captain, but i do not buy this. I work with several companies and their talent acquisition folks, and college recruiting is more challenging today than ever. Problem is, for 17 years kids have been preached to that if they put in the work, get in the right college,get good grades in college, you write your own ticket and it is all gravy from there. So, they get out of school and expect that they should be paid more for the same job than someone from a "lesser" college,or someone with lesser grades, and they expect to be making $75K first job. PLenty of jobs out there at great companies that are perfectly fine first jobs. First jobs do not mean you get to buy a house, or live without roommates, or buy $40K cars...they are first jobs.You are 23 , prove you deserve more money on the job, as Chef stated, work your ass off, and you will get compensated. I put most of these blame on parents..i see it first hand every day. They devote so much of their ego in what college their kids were able to get into and attend...they ain't coming out of that making $45K.Too big of a blow to the parents ego...and that is transferred to the kids. OKay, over my get off the lawn rant...and this was not directed at you. Edited October 15, 2014 by plenzmd1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Not to be a richard here Captain, but i do not buy this. I work with several companies and their talent acquisition folks, and college recruiting is more challenging today than ever. Problem is, for 17 years kids have been preached to that if they put in the work, get in the right college,get good grades in college, you write your own ticket and it is all gravy from there. So, they get out of school and expect that they should be paid more for the same job than someone from a "lesser" college,or someone with lesser grades, and they expect to be making $75K first job. PLenty of jobs out there at great companies that are perfectly fine first jobs. First jobs do not mean you get to buy a house, or live without roommates, or buy $40K cars...they are first jobs.You are 23 , prove you deserve more money on the job, as Chef stated, work your ass off, and you will get compensated. I put most of these blame on parents..i see it first hand every day. They devote so much of their ego in what college their kids were able to get into and attend...they ain't coming out of that making $45K.Too big of a blow to the parents ego...and that is transferred to the kids. OKay, over my get off the lawn rant...and this was not directed at you. I agree. The 'worthless college degree' bullsh-- has become the new default thing to say. I don't buy it either, the opportunities are out there. I think it's exactly right that many kids are spoiled and have no idea how to hustle to either find a job or improve their situation. But a lot of kids HAVE figured out what it takes to succeed so the competition for good jobs has intensified. We hired a recent college grad to be our Admin 9 months ago. She's been awesome: great attitude, busts her hump, deals with the work stress, and keeps up with our very demanding CEO. This week she transferred into the Marketing group where she wants to make her career. I wonder how many other kids with Marketing degrees would have turned up their noses at an Admin job or done a half-assed job while they whined about college debt and fetching coffee instead of putting their best effort forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 i don't think i am getting played, my initial thought was that it was from an offshore call center, that was why i called the number and looked him up on linkedin, and by all indications he seems to be local to the philly area, granted his linked in profile is very vague. I get that recruiting can be a cattle call type of thing, i was just really turned off by his approach and would think the company would be horrified to know how it is being represented...or maybe they really just don't care. I too think you're getting played or the guy is massively incompetent. Recruiting agencies want to present a first class business image to employer clients and candidate clients. As an interested, viable candidate representing potential income for the recruiting company they would be far, far more likely to fire the recruiter than black list you for how the guy has interacted with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) I think it's exactly right that many kids are spoiled and have no idea how to hustle to either find a job or improve their situation. You know KD, i don't think their spoiled as much as brainwashed. And i feel sorry for them. I see the pressure put on kids today to get into the "right" school. Cause if you get into that school, you have the golden ticket. And when that ticket is not punched at the end of the 4 years, it is ever so disheartening, and i feel bad for them. Reminds me of Friday Night Lights...how for those kids the highlight of their lives was High School Football. For kids today, it is what college you get into.Career and happiness post college not a real concern, and they are taught that all falls into place once you get in the right school. But it doesn't for most, and i feel for them. And the parents fuel this, and they totally think the referendum on how they did as parents is what college their kids attend.. Edited October 15, 2014 by plenzmd1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 You know KD, i don't think their spoiled as much as brainwashed. And i feel sorry for them. I see the pressure put on kids today to get into the "right" school. Cause if you get into that school, you have the golden ticket. And when that ticket is not punched at the end of the 4 years, it is ever so disheartening, and i feel bad for them. Reminds me of Friday Night Lights...how for those kids the highlight of their lives was High School Football. For kids today, it is what college you get into.Career and happiness post college not a real concern, and they are taught that all falls into place once you get in the right school. But it doesn't for most, and i feel for them. And the parents fuel this, and they totally think the referendum on how they did as parents is what college their kids attend.. That's probably true and something I'll appreciate more in 10 years when my kids reach high school and I see it first hand. There is certainly benefit in attending a good college, but it's not a substitute for having the ability to work hard, deal with setbacks and have the drive and balls to take chances. There's a larger commentary to be made about our current society's attitude that everything is always supposed to work out for the best and if it doesn't it must be because someone wronged me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPinC Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 i don't think i am getting played, my initial thought was that it was from an offshore call center, that was why i called the number and looked him up on linkedin, and by all indications he seems to be local to the philly area, granted his linked in profile is very vague. I get that recruiting can be a cattle call type of thing, i was just really turned off by his approach and would think the company would be horrified to know how it is being represented...or maybe they really just don't care. I agree with ya, I haven't had a ton of experience with recruiters but the 3 or 4 agencies I've interacted with were highly professional. From what you've described that company won't be around long if they don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 why? isn't that kind of the same attitude that you and plenzmd are discussing? That's probably true and something I'll appreciate more in 10 years when my kids reach high school and I see it first hand. There is certainly benefit in attending a good college, but it's not a substitute for having the ability to work hard, deal with setbacks and have the drive and balls to take chances. There's a larger commentary to be made about our current society's attitude that everything is always supposed to work out for the best and if it doesn't it must be because someone wronged me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Security Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Attending college helps when you move out of town, and where you are from can help, to a point as well. I got several opportunities from knowing people who knew common friends 900 miles away and got hired at my first business job in Atlanta long, long ago, because they guy hiring was from Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 why? isn't that kind of the same attitude that you and plenzmd are discussing? Why? Other factors being equal, most employers are going to pick the guy from Cornell over the guy from UB. Also, better schools tend to have better career networks. I think plenz's initial point was people invest too much in trying to achieve a 'name school' just for the sake of attending that school, without understanding that career achievement isn't defined or guaranteed just by the school. Attending a good school helps your career, but it ultimately means little without the right attitude, ability and effort, which is were a lot of people fall short (regardless of school). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 i knew the answer, my point was that much like the parents pushing their kids to the 'best schools' and getting their golden parachute right out of college, the same illusion is there because of the name of the school...i don't care if it's University of Chicago or SUNY Fredonia, they both teach you that when the demand for pickles equals the supply for pickles, we meet market equilibrium, ceteris paribus(see they taught us those fancy words at Fredonia)....naturally i am way oversimplifying it, but hopefully you see the point i am trying to make as a devils advocate Why? Other factors being equal, most employers are going to pick the guy from Cornell over the guy from UB. Also, better schools tend to have better career networks. I think plenz's initial point was people invest too much in trying to achieve a 'name school' just for the sake of attending that school, without understanding that career achievement isn't defined or guaranteed just by the school. Attending a good school helps your career, but it ultimately means little without the right attitude, ability and effort, which is were a lot of people fall short (regardless of school). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 i've been putting my toe in the job market water lately (right now it's back out of the water) and have this advice: try to avoid outside recruiters if possible. in my field they charge around 30k to place some one. that's 30 less k you are likely to get as a signing bonus or salary over your first few years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Security Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 i've been putting my toe in the job market water lately (right now it's back out of the water) and have this advice: try to avoid outside recruiters if possible. in my field they charge around 30k to place some one. that's 30 less k you are likely to get as a signing bonus or salary over your first few years This is partially true......if you are in IT, most companies do not feel they can competently weed out potential IT candidates, and they rely on recruiters to make sure people are not full of crap, and they are not wasting the time of the company by interviewing inferior candidates or those without the actual knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 i knew the answer, my point was that much like the parents pushing their kids to the 'best schools' and getting their golden parachute right out of college, the same illusion is there because of the name of the school...i don't care if it's University of Chicago or SUNY Fredonia, they both teach you that when the demand for pickles equals the supply for pickles, we meet market equilibrium, ceteris paribus(see they taught us those fancy words at Fredonia)....naturally i am way oversimplifying it, but hopefully you see the point i am trying to make as a devils advocate I guess my point was to Captains original point that a bachelors degree means free labor. Kids think that a name school means more money out of college. It doesn't except for a select few. Good friend of mine had a kid graduate Northwestern in June, to the the tune of $65K a year tuition and living. Knucklehead parents paying for almost all of it...cause Mom got validation that her kid went to Northwestern. She has had several offers in Chicago she has deemed beneath her at $45K-$50K. She is selling cupcakes.Some kid from U of Illinois prolly filling those jobs.And happy to get it.And that is a common, common story. Feel sorry for her..she has been brainwashed to believe she was on easy train once she graduated from college...she was lied to. And to your point on market equilibrium...it is equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 And the parents fuel this, and they totally think the referendum on how they did as parents is what college their kids attend.. I agree. Facebook has three seasons. Fall, winter, spring and look at the schools we visited with our kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) my son is 23 and has been working pretty much full time at circuit city and target after that since being in high school. he never really showed any focus on a college career so i didn't push the issue. He's now been with target for 6 years, has gotten steady pay increases, nothing that will allow him to live lavishly, he gets benefits, his bosses and co-workers all recognize him for his hard work. He is finally registering for classes at the local cc simply to get some book knowledge, but I have ZERO problem with him making a career in retail and retail support and taking his time getting an education, as long as he can make ends meet. I see friends of his with 50-60K in student loan debt working at red robin. work hard, keep learning and in the end things will fall into place. not saying the way he/we are doing it is right, but it's right for him/us at this point in time. I agree. Facebook has three seasons. Fall look how cute my kids are going back to school,winter look at my speedometer at how cold it is, spring look at my adorable kids 3rd grade graduation ceremony, and look at the schools we visited with our kids. fixed it for you Edited October 15, 2014 by The Poojer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
\GoBillsInDallas/ Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I see friends of his with 50-60K in student loan debt working at red robin. Ah, yes...the degree in Marketing or Humanities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 worse...ecpi in programming or something related Ah, yes...the degree in Marketing or Humanities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Why? Other factors being equal, most employers are going to pick the guy from Cornell over the guy from UB. Also, better schools tend to have better career networks. I think plenz's initial point was people invest too much in trying to achieve a 'name school' just for the sake of attending that school, without understanding that career achievement isn't defined or guaranteed just by the school. Attending a good school helps your career, but it ultimately means little without the right attitude, ability and effort, which is were a lot of people fall short (regardless of school). assuming a bs or higher is the goal, the savvy solution is 2 years at community college and 2 more years and a bachelors at the best school the kid can get into (which may well be a great state school- uva or unc chapel hill anyone?). grounded, relatively inexpensive and effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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