Magox Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 To hell with democracy! I'm sure you felt the same way when the clear majority of Americans were against Obamacare for over 95% of it's time in existence before Donny came into power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Well damn! @thehill Republican donor sues GOP for fraud after Obamacare repeal failure http://hill.cm/UEBQC6t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/04/opinion/obamacare-rage-in-retrospect.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region®ion=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0 So once again: What was Obamacare rage about? Much of it was orchestrated by pressure groups like Freedom Works, and it’s a good guess that some of the “ordinary citizens” who appeared at town halls were actually right-wing activists. Still, there was plenty of genuine popular rage, stoked by misinformation and outright lies from the usual suspects: Fox News, talk radio and so on. For example, around 40 percent of the public believed that Obamacare would create “death panels” depriving senior citizens of care. The question then becomes why so many people believed these lies. The answer, I believe, comes down to a combination of identity politics and affinity fraud. Whenever I see someone castigating liberals for engaging in identity politics, I wonder what such people imagine the right has been doing all these years. For generations, conservatives have conditioned many Americans to believe that safety-net programs are all about taking things away from white people and giving stuff to minorities. And those who stoked Obamacare rage were believed because they seemed to some Americans like their kind of people — that is, white people defending them against you-know-who. So what’s the moral of this story? There’s bad news and good news. It’s certainly not encouraging to realize how easily many Americans were duped by right-wing lies, pushed into screaming rage against a reform that would actually improve their lives. On the other hand, the truth did eventually prevail, and Republicans’ inability to handle that truth is turning into a real political liability. And in the meantime, Obamacare has made America a better place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 I'm sure you felt the same way when the clear majority of Americans were against Obamacare for over 95% of it's time in existence before Donny came into power. Could have something to do that 35% of Americans either thought the ACA and Obamacare were different or weren't sure if they were different based off a February 2017 Morning Consult poll https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/07/upshot/one-third-dont-know-obamacare-and-affordable-care-act-are-the-same.html.. Also, only 47% of Republicans knew that a repeal of the ACA would stop expanded medicaid coverage and subsidies. In other words, there were some Trump voters who voted to get rid of "Obamacare" without realizing they were benefiting from it. That might be the reason for the change in polling approval for the ACA. The power of wording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Could have something to do that 35% of Americans either thought the ACA and Obamacare were different or weren't sure if they were different based off a February 2017 Morning Consult poll https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/07/upshot/one-third-dont-know-obamacare-and-affordable-care-act-are-the-same.html.. Also, only 47% of Republicans knew that a repeal of the ACA would stop expanded medicaid coverage and subsidies. In other words, there were some Trump voters who voted to get rid of "Obamacare" without realizing they were benefiting from it. That might be the reason for the change in polling approval for the ACA. The power of wording. No, I don't think so. I think the reason for the shift are a few reasons. A) Now that the media has shined a spot light on all the people who could lose coverage and people see the alternative that has very little backing even among Republicans, the choice between the ACA and what Republicans have offered suddenly makes the ACA look a lot more appealing. and B) Trump is now president and anything he is against, people will like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 No, I don't think so. I think the reason for the shift are a few reasons. A) Now that the media has shined a spot light on all the people who could lose coverage and people see the alternative that has very little backing even among Republicans, the choice between the ACA and what Republicans have offered suddenly makes the ACA look a lot more appealing. and B) Trump is now president and anything he is against, people will like. Those are definitely two other factors, but I still think their were some voters who wouldn't of voted for Trump if they knew their health care was possibly going to be threatened. I blame Hillary for not making it clear to them that the ACA and Obamacare were the same thing and a straight repeal would negatively impact those helped by the ACA. One other reason she was a horrible candidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 To hell with democracy! You are confused. This is precisely the reason that we are designed as a democratic republic, not a democracy. My point is, many Americans are too ill informed or just plain not intelligent enough to make critical government decisions. The poll illustrates this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 (edited) You are confused. This is precisely the reason that we are designed as a democratic republic, not a democracy. My point is, many Americans are too ill informed or just plain not intelligent enough to make critical government decisions. The poll illustrates this. Keep in mind the poll you're referring too assumes it's either try and fix the ACA or let it die. Letting it die would be disastrous for people trying to buy healthcare plans so even if you hate the ACA you wouldn't want to inflict that on anybody. To me the poll shows how little faith there is in the GOP in repealing and replacing it. Edited August 5, 2017 by Doc Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Keep in mind the poll you're referring too assumes it's either try and fix the ACA or let it die. Letting it die would be disastrous for people trying to buy healthcare plans so even if you hate the ACA you wouldn't want to inflict that on anybody. To me the poll shows how little faith their is in the GOP in repealing and replacing it. Personally, I wouldn't find it all that disastrous, since I could then purchase from the insurers directly like I used to. The ACA "marketplace" is the most !@#$ed-up marketplace I've ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Personally, I wouldn't find it all that disastrous, since I could then purchase from the insurers directly like I used to. The ACA "marketplace" is the most !@#$ed-up marketplace I've ever seen. Exactly . I wouldn't assume that the results of " letting it die" would automatically be disastrous for all people. This is a prime example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Exactly . I wouldn't assume that the results of " letting it die" would automatically be disastrous for all people. This is a prime example. Illustrating the major problem with the ACA: it was monolithic, metastatic monster of legislation. Letting it die would hurt a lot of people, since that would kill the Medicaid expansion that's irrevocably tied in to it. Of course, that was the plan: making the legislation unrepealable by making it agglutinative mess that that could only be treated as a single unit, and not as constituent parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capco Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 You are confused. This is precisely the reason that we are designed as a democratic republic, not a democracy. My point is, many Americans are too ill informed or just plain not intelligent enough to make critical government decisions. The poll illustrates this. I'm not sure why you want to play semantics about democracy vs democratic republic since the textbook definition of democracy is "a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives." I never used the term direct democracy, did I? Regardless, if this is how you feel (and I can't say I disagree with the general premise), isn't the solution to inform and educate those many Americans who are currently lacking the ability to make critical government decisions? Democracy, whether direct or representative, requires well-informed and educated populace to function properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 (edited) http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/07/31/trump-finds-obamacare-repeal-leverage-congress-insurance-benefit.html Good, good! This is the right thing to do, Mr. Trump. Go for it Donald!! I was thinking it would be couched as taking Health Care away from starving children and old ladies, and SURE ENOUGH, Chris Murphy doesn't let me down LOL. Edited August 5, 2017 by reddogblitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Yes, one more total meaningless gesture is the right thing to do? Whatever Fat cats getting to pass laws they don't have to follow is the right thing to do? Be honest, do you really think this is a good system? This would be FAR from a "meaningless gesture". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 You need catastrophic coverage. A plan that would provide this kind of safety net would be nice, but you don't need health insurance if you are healthy. I had a friend who was a strapping young 19 year old man in prime health. The next day he came down with Type I diabetes. Did he need health insurance? What about the 24th year old woman out jogging and gets run over by a bus. Does she need health insurance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 I had a friend who was a strapping young 19 year old man in prime health. The next day he came down with Type I diabetes. Did he need health insurance? What about the 24th year old woman out jogging and gets run over by a bus. Does she need health insurance Well, both would be covered under their parents plan and pry will with any future healthcare plan the GOP will come up with, but if you get run over by a bus what you're pry going to need is a coroner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grinreaper Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 Fat cats getting to pass laws they don't have to follow is the right thing to do? Be honest, do you really think this is a good system? This would be FAR from a "meaningless gesture". It's not just the fat cats who were exempted, their staffers were too. The administration needs to review all exemptions that were given out in order to get the ACA rammed through congress. It's sort of funny to think of all of Congress with their dicks and titties all in a ringer over this. I'm sure though that they'd work together to get something done. I'd call it forced bi-partisanship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 I'm not sure why you want to play semantics about democracy vs democratic republic since the textbook definition of democracy is "a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives." I never used the term direct democracy, did I? Regardless, if this is how you feel (and I can't say I disagree with the general premise), isn't the solution to inform and educate those many Americans who are currently lacking the ability to make critical government decisions? Democracy, whether direct or representative, requires well-informed and educated populace to function properly. Oxford is not "the textbook." People who quote dictionaries as though they're encyclopedias are real !@#$s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 Oh great, people arguing their definition of democracy is the only good one. Please continue, this is fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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