Why isn't anyone talking about Stevie?

[BillsBytheBay]

hes a great 2, in a few years maybe hell work out for once in the off season and get some size and stop getting hurt. Hes had better hands lately nd isn't the problem. where was woods today? wheres the QB who can throw?

you must of missed some games....

 

 

 

Of WRs......not that many considering there are 32 NFL teams:

(Current NFL players.....I may have missed one or two)

 

Stevie Johnson 2010-2012

Brandon Marshall 2007-2012 (6 in a row, with 828 already this season)

Marques Colston 2009-2012 (4 in a row, would have been 7 except was injured in 2008)

Calvin Johnson: 2010-2013 (4 in a row)

A.J. Green 2011-2013

 

Vincent Jackson 2008-2009 & 2011-2012 (injured in 2010 with 827 already this season)

Wes Welker 2007-2009 & 2011-2012 (on pace for 1000 in 2013)

Victor Cruz 2011-2012 (with 824 already this season)

 

Reggie Wayne 2004-2010, 2012 (2011 was only 960)

Larry Fitzgerald 2007-2011

Andre Johnson 2008-2010

Steve Smith 2005-2008

Greg Jennings 2008-2010

horrible company.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Stevie also simply does not work hard enough on his conditioning.........a fact he has admitted.....and that has likely been the reason for his constant, CONSTANT problems with soft tissue injuries.

 

Stevie saying that he didn't train hard enough is the same category of statement as Billy Joe Hobert saying that he didn't study the playbook.

 

Hobert said later on that he was just trying to get a rise from the media, that he said that just for effect.

 

Stevie said that he trained much harder this offseason. The results? The same as before.

 

What does this mean?

 

What does it mean that Miles Austin can't stay healthy?

 

What does it mean when any athlete can't stay healthy?

 

1) Is it always from undertraining?

 

2) Isn't it just as possible that some athletes can't stay healthy due to overtraining?

 

3) Isn't it possible that some athletes simply can't stand up to the rigors of NFL football regardless of their training regimen?

 

Stevie has been extraordinarily productive for a 7th round pick.

 

I wouldn't presume to know why he can't stay healthy but if I had to guess, I'd say that he's in that quite large 3rd category.

[Orton's Arm]

 

 

They lost Price, Centers and Riemersma all in the same offseason. Josh Reed simultaneously went from a sticky fingered sensation to a ball dropper overnight and Moulds got injured. Bledsoe was a statue and needed weapons and he went from having a wealth of them to almost none by midseason. Bobby Shaw, Sam Gash and Mark Campbell were very poor replacements for Price, Centers and Riemersma.

 

Good points. I agree that the reduction in quality in the Bills' receiving threats made a big difference to the offense. But as important as that change was, I still think that the combination of the Bills' pass protection struggles + Bledsoe's slow decision-making and consequent vulnerability to the pass rush + the example set by Bill Belichick had an even greater effect.

 

The Bills' offense in the second half of 2002 was considerably more lackluster than the first half. IIRC, the second half of 2002 offense was more like the 2003 offense than like the first half of 2002 offense. In the second half of 2002, the Bills' pass protection problems had not yet fully set in.

[QB Bills]

Can't stay on the field? You do realize he hasn't missed a game until this year.

 

How many receivers in the league can you name that have done more with such horrific qb play as he has?

 

Here's a guy who worked his butt off to get where he is as a forgotten draft pick. He does nothing but rep buffalo in a positive light.

 

Most importantly, he's pretty f'n good at his job.

 

It's pretty obvious why those who don't like him feel that way. Doesn't need to be spelled out here, but luckily it's their own problem.

 

Honestly, some of you don't deserve a winning team.

[machine gun kelly]

why do people bring up trading one of our best offensive weapons? This is the same board that complains we don't have depth. You don't get depth by trading away talent.

[BillsBackersChicago]

Stevie is a crap receiver. Drops the ball in big games. Costs his team yards (and probably a game or two) with his stupid celebrations. And he's hurt all the time. Only with this team would we accept such an undeservedly ego-centric player as our "best player" simply because he probably chose to stay with the Bills where he always has an excuse rather than try to go to a team where he would be exposed.

 

Too bad it's too late to trade him. Maybe in the off season he would be worth a 3rd or 4th rounder, and then use the freed-up money on another area of the team that need help.

 

Review stevies performance on any all-22 and you will see why you are completely incorrect. He gets ridiculous separation from his defenders with very subtle moves at the line. It is plenty of space to get the catch if the QB can stay upright and get the ball out to him. That's why he had >1000 yards the past few years (actually can't remember if he hit 1000 last year), with Gailey we had quick passes and fit could pretty much that in the first few seconds after the play started, stevie would be open. That's pretty much the exact same thing that wes welker does except he uses speed while stevie uses moves. And yes, he has had some critical drops, but what receiver that catches the majority of his teams passes doesn't? At least he was open enough to be in position to catch those passes, no one else seemed to be. Finally let's not forget that he has been the only WR threat we have had in the past 5 years so has performed while drawing (and beating) the opponents best corners. Just watch the tape, don't make overarching generalized statements.

 

http://www.wgr550.com/JW-All-22-Review-Week-1/17263530

The truth about Stevie Johnson

Stevie Johnson says that the Patriots don’t have anyone that can cover him. He’s right. I know, I know he dropped that one pass and that’s awful. He should own it. It’s on him. That said, if we’re looking ahead with these tapes, at what went wrong and what can go right, then it’s worth noting that Stevie burns almost everyone he faces when he’s one-on-one.

Here’s a good example. Johnson lines up in the slot with Aqib Talib, the Pats top corner lined up in press coverage.

 

 

Talib attempts to jam Johnson at the line and, as is usually the case, it doesn’t work.

 

 

Johnson breaks free for a nice gain as Manuel finds him over the middle. Take a look at the time that Manuel has to survey the field here. It’s a consistent theme throughout the game. When he dropped back, he had plenty of time.

Note something else here: The design of the play. Look at the routes. Remember them. Study them. You’ll see them again. Spoiler alert - check Robert Woods at the bottom of the screen.

[CardinalScotts]

Hes our best player on the field. Has had a great career for the Bills. Not a cancer!

 

he's not, Goodwin has already passed him despite being on the field for less snaps. Goodwin with Woods AND Stevie out of the slot would be tough. Graham less snaps and is the #4 changes everything. + EJ starting to wing it

[thebandit27]

 

 

he's not, Goodwin has already passed him despite being on the field for less snaps. Goodwin with Woods AND Stevie out of the slot would be tough. Graham less snaps and is the #4 changes everything. + EJ starting to wing it

 

So wait, you're saying that we should keep out good players? Not get rid of them the second other good players start to show themselves useful?

 

That's crazy talk

[Speedy G]

Really? Debating if SJ should be here, traded, etc....he's a weapon on a young growing improving team, chose to stay here, has shed a positive light on buffalo, and gets open with his uncanny unorthodox moves. He maturity has grown in the last few years, he was a real leader on the sideline in the jets game. Sure we're all frustrated by his injuries, so is he! He wants to be out there, not being able to contribute in the domination of the jets had to be making him crazy! Come on guys! It's year one of a new staff, new players, etc... It's a new era for the Bills, and I for one am willing to go thru some growing pains to be a consistent winning team! Give the guy a break, be patient, him being out was kind of a blessing, the young guys got some valuable experience, and made the most of their opportunity, and down the road, that will be a huge confidence boost for the team! Let's stay positive and support our team no matter what Go Bills!!!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Stevie saying that he didn't train hard enough is the same category of statement as Billy Joe Hobert saying that he didn't study the playbook.

 

To be fair to Stevie, I don't recall him saying that he didn't train hard enough. What he said is that he took the team's off-season training program booklet and put it in a drawer.

 

He said he runs and plays basketball in the off-season. Playing basketball, frankly, is one of the reasons Stevie has the moves he does, and possibly one of the reasons he tends to get hurt in the hamstrings/groin - the sudden, quick changes in momentum and direction that he demands of his body, not on smooth wood but on turf or grass with cleats.

 

As I recall, he injured his back this preseason while training in the weight room? Does anyone else remember this? So Stevie might fall into the category of athletes who should just be left to do their own thing in the off season. It's not unheard of for overly-aggressive or sligntly inappropriate training (poor form, pushing up reps too fast, etc) to cause or aggravate injury.

 

That said, he hasn't missed many games.

 

he's not, Goodwin has already passed him despite being on the field for less snaps. Goodwin with Woods AND Stevie out of the slot would be tough. Graham less snaps and is the #4 changes everything. + EJ starting to wing it

 

I do agree with you that Goodwin, Woods, and Stevie should be a strong WR combo.

 

Goodwin has passed Stevie? By what criterion?

 

Watch all-22 and you will consistently see the beautiful sight of opposing DB, jocks flapping in the breeze as Stevie shucks them and runs away. The only reason Stevie hasn't racked up more yardage is lack of a QB who can consistently throw him catchable balls. You don't see that yet from Goodwin. You may - he's fast, strong, and tough and he wants to be a baller, but he's a long way to go to match Stevie's overall abilities as a wideout.

 

The only thing I'd like to see from Stevie that I don't yet (well, besides ditching the stupid penalties for good) is a bit more focus on expanding his notion of "catchable ball".

Edited November 23, 2013 by Hopeful

[Orton's Arm]

 

 

Of WRs......not that many considering there are 32 NFL teams:

(Current NFL players.....I may have missed one or two)

 

Stevie Johnson 2010-2012

Brandon Marshall 2007-2012 (6 in a row, with 828 already this season)

Marques Colston 2009-2012 (4 in a row, would have been 7 except was injured in 2008)

Calvin Johnson: 2010-2013 (4 in a row)

A.J. Green 2011-2013

 

Vincent Jackson 2008-2009 & 2011-2012 (injured in 2010 with 827 already this season)

Wes Welker 2007-2009 & 2011-2012 (on pace for 1000 in 2013)

Victor Cruz 2011-2012 (with 824 already this season)

 

Reggie Wayne 2004-2010, 2012 (2011 was only 960)

Larry Fitzgerald 2007-2011

Andre Johnson 2008-2010

Steve Smith 2005-2008

Greg Jennings 2008-2010

 

Good post!

 

Counting Stevie himself, there are thirteen guys on your list. Even if Stevie is the absolute worst guy on that list, that still puts him in the top half of number one wide receivers.

 

But he might not be the worst guy on that list. It's worth bearing in mind that a number of WRs listed above had real QBs throwing them the ball. Stevie hasn't had that luxury.

[BillsBytheBay]

 

 

Good post!

 

Counting Stevie himself, there are thirteen guys on your list. Even if Stevie is the absolute worst guy on that list, that still puts him in the top half of number one wide receivers.

 

But he might not be the worst guy on that list. It's worth bearing in mind that a number of WRs listed above had real QBs throwing them the ball. Stevie hasn't had that luxury.

people are crazy. SJ13 may be the best receiver the Bills have ever had. Could you imagine Kelly as his QB?

 

I know..... Fantasy football. I have a buddy who is into that. Fantasy football doesn't always equate to reality football.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

people are crazy. SJ13 may be the best receiver the Bills have ever had. Could you imagine Kelly as his QB?

 

I know..... Fantasy football. I have a buddy who is into that. Fantasy football doesn't always equate to reality football.

 

Everyone who knows me and how much I love football and that I'm a stats geek, just assumes I must be into fantasy football.

 

The truth is, I've just never been able to get into it, just for that reason: it seems so divorced from reality

Edited November 24, 2013 by Hopeful

[BADOLBILZ]

Good points. I agree that the reduction in quality in the Bills' receiving threats made a big difference to the offense. But as important as that change was, I still think that the combination of the Bills' pass protection struggles + Bledsoe's slow decision-making and consequent vulnerability to the pass rush + the example set by Bill Belichick had an even greater effect.

 

The Bills' offense in the second half of 2002 was considerably more lackluster than the first half. IIRC, the second half of 2002 offense was more like the 2003 offense than like the first half of 2002 offense. In the second half of 2002, the Bills' pass protection problems had not yet fully set in.

 

I think your opinion was the more prevailing one, but the dropoff in target quality was enormous. Most fans were so thrilled about getting a first round pick for Price that they didn't want to acknowledge the impact it had on Bledsoe. Everyone knew how to attack Bledsoe by that point, and the Bills actually came out scoring early that year but then Moulds got hurt and Reed started dropping everything thrown his way. Price struggled as the clear #1 option in Atlanta but losing him was an offensive disaster for the Bills and that season was one of the great cases of subtraction by subtraction in Bills history. To a lesser extent I think the Levitre loss and inadequate replacement has lead to losses and some of the struggles of CJ Spiller. You can't re-sign all of your free agents but I think the greater lesson is that every year should be a win-now year. I think much of the league treats it that way......the Bills seem content with re-building and end up facing small windows and setting up make-or-break seasons. That doesn't work. Year one of any new regime should be seen as the most important.

[Orton's Arm]

I think your opinion was the more prevailing one, but the dropoff in target quality was enormous. Most fans were so thrilled about getting a first round pick for Price that they didn't want to acknowledge the impact it had on Bledsoe. Everyone knew how to attack Bledsoe by that point, and the Bills actually came out scoring early that year but then Moulds got hurt and Reed started dropping everything thrown his way. Price struggled as the clear #1 option in Atlanta but losing him was an offensive disaster for the Bills and that season was one of the great cases of subtraction by subtraction in Bills history. To a lesser extent I think the Levitre loss and inadequate replacement has lead to losses and some of the struggles of CJ Spiller. You can't re-sign all of your free agents but I think the greater lesson is that every year should be a win-now year. I think much of the league treats it that way......the Bills seem content with re-building and end up facing small windows and setting up make-or-break seasons. That doesn't work. Year one of any new regime should be seen as the most important.

 

> I think your opinion was the more prevailing one

 

All my opinions should be prevailing ones!

 

> but the dropoff in target quality was enormous

 

That's true, especially when taking into account the Moulds injury. But by 2004, Moulds was healthy again, and the Bills had a young deep threat in the form of Lee Evans. But the offense continued to be lackluster--so much so that the Bills parted ways with Bledsoe after the season. I'll grant that a big part of the step down from 2002 to 2003 was because of changes in quality of targets. But it's not like the 2004 offense picked up where 2002 left off.

 

Even if Price had remained with the Bills in 2003, he would have represented much less of a deep threat than he had in 2002. This is because teams would have blitzed Buffalo, confident their pass rushers would get to the Bills' QB before Price could get open deep. The only way to beat something like that is reasonably good blitz pickup--a phrase which doesn't come to mind when describing the 2003 Bills.

 

> the greater lesson is that every year should be a win-now year.

 

I disagree. TD and Marv were too shortsighted. That was their undoing. For example: in Marv's first year as a GM, he decided to treat it like a win-now year. He felt the two players he most had to have to win now were a SS and DT; which is why he focused on those two positions with his first two picks of the 2006 draft. Yes, the Bills had a large hole at DT, and a stopgap solution at center. But was John McCargo (DT) really a better pick than Nick Mangold; who went on to become the best center in the league? Was Donte Whitner really the best football player available at 8th overall?

 

In his second year as GM, Marv amped up the win-now approach even more. He used a top-12 pick on Lynch, despite having a perfectly good RB in McGahee; and despite the short careers typically associated with RBs. Both RBs and LBs are known for being able to contribute quickly as rookies; so Marv's first two picks of 2007 were consistent with the "win now" theme he'd established in 2006. The same could be said about TD's strong overemphasis on the RB position during his tenure. Two other examples come to mind of TD's win now mentality: his decision to let Antoine Winfield walk in order to overpay for Troy Vincent and Lawyer Milloy. Also, his decision to trade away a valuable first round pick for another team's aging backup QB.

 

> the Bills seem content with re-building and end up facing small windows

 

The Bills are ADHD. They lack the patience for a disciplined, long-term rebuild effort. Everything has to be right away. They've repeatedly sacrificed the long-term interests of the team in order to be better in the moment. The reason windows are so short is because in the post-Polian era, the team has lacked a core of good players/long term answers around whom to build.

[BADOLBILZ]

> I think your opinion was the more prevailing one

 

All my opinions should be prevailing ones!

 

> but the dropoff in target quality was enormous

 

That's true, especially when taking into account the Moulds injury. But by 2004, Moulds was healthy again, and the Bills had a young deep threat in the form of Lee Evans. But the offense continued to be lackluster--so much so that the Bills parted ways with Bledsoe after the season. I'll grant that a big part of the step down from 2002 to 2003 was because of changes in quality of targets. But it's not like the 2004 offense picked up where 2002 left off.

 

Even if Price had remained with the Bills in 2003, he would have represented much less of a deep threat than he had in 2002. This is because teams would have blitzed Buffalo, confident their pass rushers would get to the Bills' QB before Price could get open deep. The only way to beat something like that is reasonably good blitz pickup--a phrase which doesn't come to mind when describing the 2003 Bills.

 

> the greater lesson is that every year should be a win-now year.

 

I disagree. TD and Marv were too shortsighted. That was their undoing. For example: in Marv's first year as a GM, he decided to treat it like a win-now year. He felt the two players he most had to have to win now were a SS and DT; which is why he focused on those two positions with his first two picks of the 2006 draft. Yes, the Bills had a large hole at DT, and a stopgap solution at center. But was John McCargo (DT) really a better pick than Nick Mangold; who went on to become the best center in the league? Was Donte Whitner really the best football player available at 8th overall?

 

In his second year as GM, Marv amped up the win-now approach even more. He used a top-12 pick on Lynch, despite having a perfectly good RB in McGahee; and despite the short careers typically associated with RBs. Both RBs and LBs are known for being able to contribute quickly as rookies; so Marv's first two picks of 2007 were consistent with the "win now" theme he'd established in 2006. The same could be said about TD's strong overemphasis on the RB position during his tenure. Two other examples come to mind of TD's win now mentality: his decision to let Antoine Winfield walk in order to overpay for Troy Vincent and Lawyer Milloy. Also, his decision to trade away a valuable first round pick for another team's aging backup QB.

 

> the Bills seem content with re-building and end up facing small windows

 

The Bills are ADHD. They lack the patience for a disciplined, long-term rebuild effort. Everything has to be right away. They've repeatedly sacrificed the long-term interests of the team in order to be better in the moment. The reason windows are so short is because in the post-Polian era, the team has lacked a core of good players/long term answers around whom to build.

 

Levy didn't come in with a particularly win-now approach. He shed the roster of Lawyer Milloy and Eric Moulds and his most significant FA signing was....Robert Royal. Their offseason was the butt of many jokes around the NFL. Still, that roster he inherited wasn't bereft of talent. He just made it that way the following offseason when he let Nate Clements, London Fletcher, Takeo Spikes and Willis McGahee go. I will give your memory of the benefit of the doubt because that was in no way "amping it up".

 

I get what you are saying about the draft picks but they were just bad draft picks not an indicator of a team that was going for broke. Whitner and McCargo were just two players at positions the Bills had needs at and Marvelous came into the job with the mantra that you must draft for need. It was the opposite of what personnel men had been openly saying for decades.....but Marv was a terrbile GM so there is that. The Bills have ALWAYS over-valued RB's and DB's which lends to the rumors that the same person was making a lot of those first round picks over the past half century.

[Orton's Arm]

Levy didn't come in with a particularly win-now approach. He shed the roster of Lawyer Milloy and Eric Moulds and his most significant FA signing was....Robert Royal. Their offseason was the butt of many jokes around the NFL. Still, that roster he inherited wasn't bereft of talent. He just made it that way the following offseason when he let Nate Clements, London Fletcher, Takeo Spikes and Willis McGahee go. I will give your memory of the benefit of the doubt because that was in no way "amping it up".

 

I get what you are saying about the draft picks but they were just bad draft picks not an indicator of a team that was going for broke. Whitner and McCargo were just two players at positions the Bills had needs at and Marvelous came into the job with the mantra that you must draft for need. It was the opposite of what personnel men had been openly saying for decades.....but Marv was a terrbile GM so there is that. The Bills have ALWAYS over-valued RB's and DB's which lends to the rumors that the same person was making a lot of those first round picks over the past half century.

 

> Levy didn't come in with a particularly win-now approach.

 

Shortly after he was hired as GM, he said that if you're building for the future, you're building for someone else's future. At first I wondered whether to dismiss that as just words. Then I saw that his actions were fully consistent with what he's said.

 

> He shed the roster of Lawyer Milloy and Eric Moulds . . .

 

Lawyer Milloy was a much better fit for the Gregggg Williams/Jerry Gray defense than for Dick Jauron's Tampa 2. The plan at SS was evidently to shed an older player and replace him with a first round pick specially chosen with Jauron's defense in mind.

 

Eric Moulds was on his last legs, and achieved almost nothing with Houston after the Bills had released him.

 

> his most significant FA signing was....Robert Royal.

 

I agree his free agent signings were a complete joke. In a number of cases he greatly overpaid for players. (Royal, Peerless Price version 2, Melvin Fowler, Triplett, Dockery, Langston Walker, etc.) Marv--or someone working for Marv--was horrible at evaluating free agents. That doesn't change the fact that Marv intended to win now. He wasn't very good at turning that intention into reality.

 

> He just made it that way the following offseason when he let Nate Clements, London Fletcher, Takeo Spikes and Willis McGahee go.

 

TD had allowed Clements' contract to expire without extending him. Then Marv slapped the franchise tag on him. That gave Marv a hypothetical one year head start over other NFL teams in negotiating a long-term deal with him. Marv didn't take advantage of that opportunity. He said, "We could offer Nate a deal now, but he wouldn't like the deal we offered. This year is his chance to prove he deserves a better deal." Which he did, to San Francisco's satisfaction. Players in the Nate Clements category can potentially be part of your team's core. Marv's decision to not pursue Clements--while instead squandering his "cash to the cap" space by wildly overpaying for third-rate free agents--is yet another indication he did not have a long-term, disciplined plan.

 

> I get what you are saying about the draft picks but they were just bad draft picks not an indicator of a team that was going for broke.

 

I did not mean to suggest that Marv seriously thought the Bills could win the Super Bowl in his first year as GM. His short-term goals were much lower than that; and mostly involved keeping the team respectable. The Bills went 7-9 his first year; so he met his short-term goal. He did so by sacrificing any long-term goals he may have had. Very little about his tenure as GM suggests he was even thinking in terms of long-term goals!

 

> The Bills have ALWAYS over-valued RB's and DB's

 

Granted. Part of that is because RBs and DBs are two of the easiest positions to evaluate. Part of it is because RBs are expected to make major contributions as rookies. TD and Marv weren't the first two shortsighted GMs the Bills have ever had.

[BADOLBILZ]

Stevie saying that he didn't train hard enough is the same category of statement as Billy Joe Hobert saying that he didn't study the playbook.

 

Hobert said later on that he was just trying to get a rise from the media, that he said that just for effect.

 

Stevie said that he trained much harder this offseason. The results? The same as before.

 

What does this mean?

 

What does it mean that Miles Austin can't stay healthy?

 

What does it mean when any athlete can't stay healthy?

 

1) Is it always from undertraining?

 

2) Isn't it just as possible that some athletes can't stay healthy due to overtraining?

 

3) Isn't it possible that some athletes simply can't stand up to the rigors of NFL football regardless of their training regimen?

 

Stevie has been extraordinarily productive for a 7th round pick.

 

I wouldn't presume to know why he can't stay healthy but if I had to guess, I'd say that he's in that quite large 3rd category.

 

You might be right......maybe he is just too fragile.....but I think the fact that these are the only injuries he has had indicate to me that he is just not a big fan of the training part of his job.

 

Oh, that and because he has said so.

 

Basically took training camp off this year too.

 

But I am ok with the explanation that is all a big misunderstanding a la Bill Joe Hobert.

 

The soft tissue injuries keep happening though......which was my point.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

You might be right......maybe he is just too fragile.....but I think the fact that these are the only injuries he has had indicate to me that he is just not a big fan of the training part of his job.

 

Oh, that and because he has said so.

 

Basically took training camp off this year too.

 

But I am ok with the explanation that is all a big misunderstanding a la Bill Joe Hobert.

 

The soft tissue injuries keep happening though......which was my point.

 

Well I'm gonna view it from the standpoint of a 7th rounder who became one of the better wide receivers in the league.

 

In other words, I think his work ethic with regards to physical training is just fine.

 

I'll stick with my suspicion that he's one of the many players who struggles to withstand the physical rigors of the league through no fault of his own.

[BADOLBILZ]

Well I'm gonna view it from the standpoint of a 7th rounder who became one of the better wide receivers in the league.

 

In other words, I think his work ethic with regards to physical training is just fine.

 

I'll stick with my suspicion that he's one of the many players who struggles to withstand the physical rigors of the league through no fault of his own.

 

If we hadn't been very publicly subjected to so many of Stevie's bad personality characteristics over the years I would say there is reason to give him the benefit of the doubt as a worker.

[Mr. WEO]

Maybe if Stevie, a guy who "struggles" with the rigors of the NFL as someone above explains, should improve himself with an off-season regimen like that of a guy like Jerry Rice, a legendary workout fanatic who lasted nearly 20 years in the league and had a dozen 16 game seasons.

 

"Playing basketball" with his buddies as an off-season regimen is, for this sport, a joke. Stevie's not tough enough for the NFL's rigors? He can fix that, I'm confident--if someone made him. If I was Ralph (or whoever), I would compel him to do so.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Mr. WEO

[Orton's Arm]

 

 

If we hadn't been very publicly subjected to so many of Stevie's bad personality characteristics over the years I would say there is reason to give him the benefit of the doubt as a worker.

 

I have a more favorable impression of Stevie's personality than do many here.

 

The Bills aren't a perfect organization. As such, they're not going to attract perfect people. Let's say you were a WR of Stevie's caliber; and let's say you were motivated only by winning. As your first contract came to a close, would you sign an extension--or would you leave to go to a team that gave you a chance to win?

 

Stevie gave us three consecutive 1000 yard seasons. That's more than most number one WRs can say. He gets good production even against Revis. He gets open all the time.

 

Could he stay on the field more if he had a better offseason work ethic? Possibly. The day that the Bills roster is filled with perfect players, I'll be the first to say that there's no more room for Stevie. But in the meantime, we should acknowledge that Stevie is one of the best players on our roster. He hasn't robbed anyone, he hasn't raped anyone, he hasn't run anyone over with his SUV. With a guy like that, why not focus on the positives more than the negatives?

Edited November 25, 2013 by Edwards' Arm

[Dibs]

If people took the time to look at the career stats of other WRs in the NFL they would see that virtually every other starting WR in the game could also be painted with the "struggles with the rigors of the NFL" brush.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

If we hadn't been very publicly subjected to so many of Stevie's bad personality characteristics over the years I would say there is reason to give him the benefit of the doubt as a worker.

 

So your assumption is that a 7th rounder who became a star receiver isn't a hard worker?

 

Okay.

 

Maybe if Stevie, a guy who "struggles" with the rigors of the NFL as someone above explains, should improve himself with an off-season regimen like that of a guy like Jerry Rice, a legendary workout fanatic who lasted nearly 20 years in the league and had a dozen 16 game seasons.

 

"Playing basketball" with his buddies as an off-season regimen is, for this sport, a joke. Stevie's not tough enough for the NFL's rigors? He can fix that, I'm confident--if someone made him. If I was Ralph (or whoever), I would compel him to do so.

 

1) We have no idea of how hard Stevie works. You choose to believe that he doesn't work hard enough. His ascendancy as a 7th rounder made good would seem to indicate the exact opposite.

 

2) Do you think everyone can simply emulate Jerry Rice and thus ward off injuries?

 

3) You ignore the very real possibility that in a league of workaholics that Jerry Rice, the greatest receiver ever to play, was a physical freak. Do you also think that if everyone worked as hard as Jerry Rice that they would also have 20 year playing careers?

 

4) The first point you ignore is that injuries can just as easily be a function of overtraining as they can undertraining.

 

5) The second point you ignore is that some players will be injury prone regardless of their training methods. You and Badol are ignoring the truth that every individual has different genetics.

[Mr. WEO]

So your assumption is that a 7th rounder who became a star receiver isn't a hard worker?

 

Okay.

 

 

 

1) We have no idea of how hard Stevie works. You choose to believe that he doesn't work hard enough. His ascendancy as a 7th rounder made good would seem to indicate the exact opposite.

 

2) Do you think everyone can simply emulate Jerry Rice and thus ward off injuries?

 

3) You ignore the very real possibility that in a league of workaholics that Jerry Rice, the greatest receiver ever to play, was a physical freak. Do you also think that if everyone worked as hard as Jerry Rice that they would also have 20 year playing careers?

 

4) The first point you ignore is that injuries can just as easily be a function of overtraining as they can undertraining.

 

5) The second point you ignore is that some players will be injury prone regardless of their training methods. You and Badol are ignoring the truth that every individual has different genetics.

 

I know of no correlation between where a man is drafted and how hard he works or worked to be named starter. A player from a small college with modest stats will rarely be drafted in a high round, no matter how hard he works. Likewise, it is not intuitive that a guy who earns a starting job from a 7th round pick got there simply by hard work. Could be he is just very talented and this was discovered after he was drafted.

 

No, not everyone who trains like Rice will become Rice (who even would suggest this?), but it is easy to conclude that such a devotion to physical fitness year round was a key to his success. He would certainly tell you this. And it is also easy to conclude that anyone, especially someone who is as tender (for the NFL) as you claim SJ to be, could only benefit from a professional, year round training routine.

 

You might want to consider the possibility that Rice was a physical freak because of his regimen. It's only logical.

 

There is no evidence that SJ had some secret intense workout regimen (you, for instance, can only cite pickup basketball) that we don't know about--let alone such a regimen that would actually harm him with its intensity.

 

In fact, based on his own public comments and the fact that he has persistent nagging non career threatening injuries, I consider his conditioning efforts dubious.

[BADOLBILZ]

I have a more favorable impression of Stevie's personality than do many here.

 

The Bills aren't a perfect organization. As such, they're not going to attract perfect people. Let's say you were a WR of Stevie's caliber; and let's say you were motivated only by winning. As your first contract came to a close, would you sign an extension--or would you leave to go to a team that gave you a chance to win?

 

Stevie gave us three consecutive 1000 yard seasons. That's more than most number one WRs can say. He gets good production even against Revis. He gets open all the time.

 

Could he stay on the field more if he had a better offseason work ethic? Possibly. The day that the Bills roster is filled with perfect players, I'll be the first to say that there's no more room for Stevie. But in the meantime, we should acknowledge that Stevie is one of the best players on our roster. He hasn't robbed anyone, he hasn't raped anyone, he hasn't run anyone over with his SUV. With a guy like that, why not focus on the positives more than the negatives?

 

I have never seen an NFL player so openly defy an organizational edict as what Stevie did in the finale at NE 3 years ago. The most disrespectful thing I have ever seen a Bills player do.

 

Do I personally care? Not really. The organization was a joke and the behavior is a fair reflection of the amount of respect they deserved. That is why most fans gave him a pass as well.

 

But if this was a good team, competing for something of importance........he would have been one of those guys that gets you beat with his stupidity. In the abyss of losing the Bills are in, one or two games haven't been the difference.

 

But that and the terrible performance in rare clutch situations, his blackout-crazy behavior like in the Jets game this year.........he's just a f*cking idiot.

 

So do I tend to think maybe he doesn't do all he can to be all he can be? You bet. Every time. He is far from deserving of the benefit of the doubt. Especially when he says he doesn't train hard.

 

As I said in the post that started this discussion......he is an effective player when he is on the field and they can't afford to spare his talent....IF he is producing.

[Orton's Arm]

 

 

I have never seen an NFL player so openly defy an organizational edict as what Stevie did in the finale at NE 3 years ago. The most disrespectful thing I have ever seen a Bills player do.

 

Do I personally care? Not really. The organization was a joke and the behavior is a fair reflection of the amount of respect they deserved. That is why most fans gave him a pass as well.

 

But if this was a good team, competing for something of importance........he would have been one of those guys that gets you beat with his stupidity. In the abyss of losing the Bills are in, one or two games haven't been the difference.

 

But that and the terrible performance in rare clutch situations, his blackout-crazy behavior like in the Jets game this year.........he's just a f*cking idiot.

 

So do I tend to think maybe he doesn't do all he can to be all he can be? You bet. Every time. He is far from deserving of the benefit of the doubt. Especially when he says he doesn't train hard.

 

As I said in the post that started this discussion......he is an effective player when he is on the field and they can't afford to spare his talent....IF he is producing.

 

Several years ago, one of the controversies on this board was whether a seventh round pick who'd looked good in preseason deserved playing time during the regular season. The fact that the discussion has gone from that to this demonstrates how far Stevie has come.

 

As for the occasional 15 yard penalties: it's obvious that the chance to do something a little creative and/or memorable is very motivating to Stevie. I realize there are those who feel it shouldn't be; and that he should completely subsume his ego to that of the team.

 

Let's say for the sake of argument that he gets three personal fouls per year, for a total of 45 yards. Compare that to an offensive lineman who sometimes loses focus or gets sloppy; resulting in 3 holding penalties and 3 false starts per year (also 45 yards). Should Stevie Johnson's 45 annual penalty yards be judged more harshly than the offensive lineman's 45 annual penalty yards? Is it worse to get hit with penalty yards from something that feeds you energy (Stevie) or from a lack of attention and mental energy (the offensive lineman)?

 

An advocate for Stevie might say that if the prospect of autographing footballs in the end zone energizes him; then his elevated playing level would help compensate for those 45 penalty yards. On the other hand, there is no offsetting compensation for the offensive lineman's occasional lapses in focus.

 

You could argue that drawing attention to oneself in a penalty-generating way is selfish. I'm not 100% comfortable with that adjective, because I think Stevie is trying to entertain the fans and even his own teammates with those celebrations. A desire to be entertaining is not typically seen as selfish. But I don't feel that entertainment should be placed ahead of the good of the team.

 

But if Stevie isn't always a perfect example for the team; an offensive lineman with lapses in focus isn't a perfect example either.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Edwards' Arm

[mjt328]

Why So Serious?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry. I love Stevie Johnson.

[BADOLBILZ]

Several years ago, one of the controversies on this board was whether a seventh round pick who'd looked good in preseason deserved playing time during the regular season. The fact that the discussion has gone from that to this demonstrates how far Stevie has come.

 

As for the occasional 15 yard penalties: it's obvious that the chance to do something a little creative and/or memorable is very motivating to Stevie. I realize there are those who feel it shouldn't be; and that he should completely subsume his ego to that of the team.

 

Let's say for the sake of argument that he gets three personal fouls per year, for a total of 45 yards. Compare that to an offensive lineman who sometimes loses focus or gets sloppy; resulting in 3 holding penalties and 3 false starts per year (also 45 yards). Should Stevie Johnson's 45 annual penalty yards be judged more harshly than the offensive lineman's 45 annual penalty yards? Is it worse to get hit with penalty yards from something that feeds you energy (Stevie) or from a lack of attention and mental energy (the offensive lineman)?

 

An advocate for Stevie might say that if the prospect of autographing footballs in the end zone energizes him; then his elevated playing level would help compensate for those 45 penalty yards. On the other hand, there is no offsetting compensation for the offensive lineman's occasional lapses in focus.

 

You could argue that drawing attention to oneself in a penalty-generating way is selfish. I'm not 100% comfortable with that adjective, because I think Stevie is trying to entertain the fans and even his own teammates with those celebrations. A desire to be entertaining is not typically seen as selfish. But I don't feel that entertainment should be placed ahead of the good of the team.

 

But if Stevie isn't always a perfect example for the team; an offensive lineman with lapses in focus isn't a perfect example either.

 

Your argument here is very thin.

 

Post play personal/conduct fouls are completely preventable and only hurt your team. An in-play violation can be an action that is uncalled many times for the once it is called. Those uncalled times can result in a wealth of gains for the team. Example: "holding or hands to face" that opens up a running lane or allows a QB to make a play. I am assuming you just didn't think this thru but this is as clear as day. Dead ball fouls are all bad.

 

And wanting to entertain people at the expense of your team success is selfish. I hope I cleared that up for you.

 

Why So Serious?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry. I love Stevie Johnson.

 

You are welcome to that.

 

I don't feel that personally about the players. I cheer for the laundry and the fans.

 

What is funny though is that this argument that people try to make about how Stevie is such a great guy because he was a seventh round pick and became a good player............how wonderful does that make Jason Peters then?

[mjt328]

 

 

Your argument here is very thin.

 

Post play personal/conduct fouls are completely preventable and only hurt your team. An in-play violation can be an action that is uncalled many times for the once it is called. Those uncalled times can result in a wealth of gains for the team. Example: "holding or hands to face" that opens up a running lane or allows a QB to make a play. I am assuming you just didn't think this thru but this is as clear as day. Dead ball fouls are all bad.

 

And wanting to entertain people at the expense of your team success is selfish. I hope I cleared that up for you.

 

How many "celebration" penalties has Stevie had in his career?

[BADOLBILZ]

How many "celebration" penalties has Stevie had in his career?

 

In all fairness the deadball fouls are usually just in divisional games like NYJ and NE. The dropped passes/failures to secure tough throws are more universal.

[mjt328]

 

In all fairness the deadball fouls are usually just in divisional games like NYJ and NE. The dropped passes/failures to secure tough throws are more universal.

 

OK. How many dropped passes does he have in his career then?

 

There are lots of great receivers that drop big ones from time to time. We are watching one tonight (Welker). You don't just boot them off your team.

 

We all remember the Steelers game 4 years ago. I refuse to hold one mistake against a player for his whole career.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

What is funny though is that this argument that people try to make about how Stevie is such a great guy because he was a seventh round pick and became a good player............how wonderful does that make Jason Peters then?

 

?

 

I brought up the 7th round issue to illustrate that he had to work hard and overcome the bias against lowly-drafted players in order to establish himself.

[Orton's Arm]

 

 

Your argument here is very thin.

 

Post play personal/conduct fouls are completely preventable and only hurt your team. An in-play violation can be an action that is uncalled many times for the once it is called. Those uncalled times can result in a wealth of gains for the team. Example: "holding or hands to face" that opens up a running lane or allows a QB to make a play. I am assuming you just didn't think this thru but this is as clear as day. Dead ball fouls are all bad.

 

And wanting to entertain people at the expense of your team success is selfish. I hope I cleared that up for you.

 

 

 

You are welcome to that.

 

I don't feel that personally about the players. I cheer for the laundry and the fans.

 

What is funny though is that this argument that people try to make about how Stevie is such a great guy because he was a seventh round pick and became a good player............how wonderful does that make Jason Peters then?

 

> Your argument here is very thin.

 

At least that's better than it being overweight!

 

> I am assuming you just didn't

> think this thru but this is as clear as day.

 

You forget to whom you speak!

 

Of course I thought it through! I wrote that those particular penalties on the offensive lineman occurred because of sloppiness or lapses in concentration. I acknowledge that going a little beyond what the rules allow can also be part of a deliberate strategy. But my example wasn't about that; except insofar as the deliberate strategy in question was rendered necessary by the initial lapses in concentration or sloppiness.

 

To return to the question of Stevie Johnson: there's a certain . . . confidence, arrogance, and/or swagger regarding some of the stuff he does. The unstated message is that if he costs the team 15 yards in a celebration penalty, he's good enough to get that 15 yards right back. To make it seem like a drop in the bucket.

 

You want your team to have that kind of attitude. Trent Edwards could have had a much better career if he'd had more of that attitude. I'm not saying you want guys taking needless penalties left and right--that's going too far--but you want guys who think they could take those penalties and still win. When you do something at an elite level--when you're better than your competition--you can feel invincible. The Bills need more of that feeling, not less.

 

[Bill from NYC]

I disagree. TD and Marv were too shortsighted. That was their undoing. For example: in Marv's first year as a GM, he decided to treat it like a win-now year. He felt the two players he most had to have to win now were a SS and DT; which is why he focused on those two positions with his first two picks of the 2006 draft. Yes, the Bills had a large hole at DT, and a stopgap solution at center. But was John McCargo (DT) really a better pick than Nick Mangold; who went on to become the best center in the league? Was Donte Whitner really the best football player available at 8th overall?

 

In his second year as GM, Marv amped up the win-now approach even more. He used a top-12 pick on Lynch, despite having a perfectly good RB in McGahee; and despite the short careers typically associated with RBs. Both RBs and LBs are known for being able to contribute quickly as rookies; so Marv's first two picks of 2007 were consistent with the "win now" theme he'd established in 2006. The same could be said about TD's strong overemphasis on the RB position during his tenure. Two other examples come to mind of TD's win now mentality: his decision to let Antoine Winfield walk in order to overpay for Troy Vincent and Lawyer Milloy. Also, his decision to trade away a valuable first round pick for another team's aging backup QB.

 

> the Bills seem content with re-building and end up facing small windows

 

The Bills are ADHD. They lack the patience for a disciplined, long-term rebuild effort. Everything has to be right away. They've repeatedly sacrificed the long-term interests of the team in order to be better in the moment. The reason windows are so short is because in the post-Polian era, the team has lacked a core of good players/long term answers around whom to build.

 

Sorry my friend but I gotta respond to your comments about 2006.

 

Marv turned down many trade down offers(I heard him say this) for the #8 selection. That draft was stocked with players at positions of need, serious need for the Bills.

 

Levy used the #8 on a small, not so highly rated safety. After trading up for a dreadful McCargo, don't forget that his next 2 selections were Youboty and Ko Simpson. Win now? Really? I contend that he made these idiotic moves due to a philosophical devotion to the secondary. He hurt the team for many years with this approach and brought in his clone in Jauron, who hammered some more nails in the Bills coffin.

 

To put it in context, I am currently as happy as I have been in many, many years with the secondary. Yet, I am going to give some credit for this to the DL and of course Pettine. A pass rush sure makes life easier for DBs. Otoh the Levy/Jauron tandem obviously believed otherwise. They wanted to build a team through DBs and RBs which is of course impossible.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Bill from NYC

[BADOLBILZ]

OK. How many dropped passes does he have in his career then?

 

There are lots of great receivers that drop big ones from time to time. We are watching one tonight (Welker). You don't just boot them off your team.

 

We all remember the Steelers game 4 years ago. I refuse to hold one mistake against a player for his whole career.

 

We really don't have to go thru and re-document Stevie's drops/failures to make tough catches do we? There have been many, the most recent being the drop in the opener against NE that he received a lot of much deserved criticism for. I didn't suggest booting him off the team. Quite the opposite. Do I want the ball going to him in the clutch though? No. I think he has created a psychological barrier for himself in big situations and I don't trust him.

[BADOLBILZ]

> Your argument here is very thin.

 

At least that's better than it being overweight!

 

> I am assuming you just didn't

> think this thru but this is as clear as day.

 

You forget to whom you speak!

 

Of course I thought it through! I wrote that those particular penalties on the offensive lineman occurred because of sloppiness or lapses in concentration. I acknowledge that going a little beyond what the rules allow can also be part of a deliberate strategy. But my example wasn't about that; except insofar as the deliberate strategy in question was rendered necessary by the initial lapses in concentration or sloppiness.

 

To return to the question of Stevie Johnson: there's a certain . . . confidence, arrogance, and/or swagger regarding some of the stuff he does. The unstated message is that if he costs the team 15 yards in a celebration penalty, he's good enough to get that 15 yards right back. To make it seem like a drop in the bucket.

 

You want your team to have that kind of attitude. Trent Edwards could have had a much better career if he'd had more of that attitude. I'm not saying you want guys taking needless penalties left and right--that's going too far--but you want guys who think they could take those penalties and still win. When you do something at an elite level--when you're better than your competition--you can feel invincible. The Bills need more of that feeling, not less.

 

If you have an OL that has 9 false starts.....the equivalent of three personal fouls......yeah, you have an issue with that OL. He probably isn't playing for you next year. But even in that instance a false start can be the byproduct of many perfect get-offs that protect your QB and help create big plays. Dead ball fouls are something different altogether.

[Orton's Arm]

Sorry my friend but I gotta respond to your comments about 2006.

 

Marv turned down many trade down offers(I heard his say this) for the #8 selection. That draft was stocked with players at positions of need, serious need for the Bills.

 

Levy used the #8 on a small, not so highly rated safety. After trading up for a dreadful McCargo, don't forget that his next 2 selections were Youboty and Ko Simpson. Win now? Really? I contend that he made these idiotic moves due to a philosophical devotion to the secondary. He hurt the team for many years with this approach and brought in his clone in Jauron, who hammered some more nails in the Bills coffin.

 

To put it in context, I am currently as happy as I have been in many, many years with the secondary. Yet, I am going to give some credit for this to the DL and of course Pettine. A pass rush sure makes life easier for DBs. Otoh the Levy/Jauron tandem obviously believed otherwise. They wanted to build a team through DBs and RBs which is of course impossible.

 

> Marv turned down many trade down offers(I heard his say this) for the #8 selection.

 

I read several articles indicating that Denver was eager to trade up to 8th overall. The veracity of those articles was reinforced by the fact that Denver did in fact trade up to take Cutler.

 

> That draft was stocked with players at positions of need, serious need for the Bills.

 

Agreed. But I remember Marv saying that he wanted his first two draft picks to be used on an SS and a DT; in no particular order. Going into the draft, the Bills had more needs than just at SS and DT. So why was Marv focused on getting the best combination of SS and DT he could with his first two picks? I think that decision was the result of the following thought process:

1) The Bills needed to be respectable in Marv's very first year.

2) The first step toward getting respectable is to build a reasonably solid defense.

3) The two puzzle pieces most needed for a solid defense were SS and DT. The defense could maybe get away with some of its other weaknesses for the time being, but those two positions had to be fixed right away!

 

One of the reasons Marv didn't take Ngata 8th overall was because he felt that Ngata at 8th overall + a late first round SS would be a worse SS/DT combination than Whitner + McCargo. Also, Ngata wasn't seen as a good fit for Jauron's Tampa 2.

 

> I contend that he made these idiotic moves due to a philosophical devotion to the secondary.

 

Agreed. But that doesn't contradict what I've written above. Marv was short-sighted and he was overly devoted to the secondary.

 

> They wanted to build a team through DBs and RBs which is of course impossible.

 

Also agreed. But if a GM is shortsighted, he becomes that much more likely to use a first round pick on a running back. RBs contribute a lot as rookies, satisfying his need for instant gratification. They have short careers; but the GM doesn't care about that because he's shortsighted.

 

Also, there is this: if a GM wants to upgrade the running game, he needs either to upgrade the OL or the RB position. Five draft picks are required to upgrade every starter on the OL; as opposed to one pick to upgrade your starting RB. Using a first round pick on a RB makes a GM feel like he's doing something to upgrade the running game, without necessarily having to replace every weak link on the offensive line. This kind of thinking also demonstrates short-term focus. A GM with a long-term vision for the team would realize that a good, solid OL needs to be part of that vision. Even if he couldn't achieve the entirety of that goal in one year, he wouldn't let himself get discouraged. He'd keep making additions to the OL's talent, until eventually the OL looked the way it should.

[BADOLBILZ]

?

 

I brought up the 7th round issue to illustrate that he had to work hard and overcome the bias against lowly-drafted players in order to establish himself.

 

The point is that where he was drafted should be irrelevant to his current or future status with the team. There is this belief that he must have worked incredibly hard to make an impact having been a lowly seventh round pick........and the reality is that Buffalo had an epically inexperienced wr corps in Chan's first year.......Stevie was actually the highest pedigree WR on the field much of the time with Donald Jones and David Nelson having been UDFA's. Perhaps Stevie was just a talented player who flew under the radar because of limited opportunities in college....he only had 2 seasons in division 1 and only one season as a starter......and he emerged when he did due to an excess of opportunity.

[mjt328]

 

 

We really don't have to go thru and re-document Stevie's drops/failures to make tough catches do we? There have been many, the most recent being the drop in the opener against NE that he received a lot of much deserved criticism for. I didn't suggest booting him off the team. Quite the opposite. Do I want the ball going to him in the clutch though? No. I think he has created a psychological barrier for himself in big situations and I don't trust him.

 

Stevie gets criticized (heavily by some Bills fans) for three things: excessive celebrations in the end zone, dropping passes and injuries. I think all issues are highly overblown.

 

From my recollection (correct me if I'm wrong), Stevie has drawn exactly TWO celebration penalties over his 6 seasons in the NFL. The Plaxico Burress-Gun imitation, and the Happy New Year writing on his t-shirt a few weeks later. Both happened 2 seasons ago, and we haven't seen ANY excessive celebrations since. Meanwhile, Victor Cruz can do a salsa dance practically every week and Gronkowski can imitate a British guard, and get no criticism.

 

The injury criticism is even more ridiculous. Until 2013, Stevie hasn't missed a single start because of injury. He's a very tough player, who guts it out for his team. Fred Jackson does the same thing - gets injured and plays hurt every other week, But he gets praised because of it.

 

Dropped passes? Probably the only legitimate issue with Stevie. But the truth is, everyone drops passes (even Jerry Rice and Calvin Johnson). Stevie has had 2 big ones in his career - Pittsburgh 2010 and New York 2011. It's not like he's got a chronic dropping problem. He's just had the unfortunate luck to lose them at very memorable times.