Mario Williams...Fact or Fiction...

[Max997]

I really thought that the game vs. Carolina would be a watershed moment for Mario.

 

Yet, it seems he's gone back to being just ordinary.

 

1 game Vs. Carolina, he had 5 tackles, 1 Asst, and 4.5 sacks.

 

3 Games vs. NE, NYJ, Bal. he has had 3 tackles, 3 Assts, and 1 sack total.

 

Averaging a tackle and assist per game and a registering a sack every couple of games is a headscratcher for a guy who had to have known coming into this season that he had to up his production

 

Bills need Mario to start becoming a weekly force in the backfield, especially with Buffalo's secondary on the mend.

 

did you start to have unrealistic expectations after the Carolina game?

 

even if Mario isnt getting the sacks he draws attention especially after the Carolina game and frees up other players to get pressure which we saw a lot of last week vs Baltimore

Edited October 3, 2013 by Max997

[K-9]

... No, that would be your own overreaction and jumping to conclusions. I simply stated that Mario should be actually producing for what he is being paid.

 

Never worked that way, never will. His pay is irrelevant to his play.

 

Would Mario be playing great if he was making the league minimum?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Gugny]

 

No, that would be your own overreaction and jumping to conclusions. I simply stated that Mario should be actually producing for what he is being paid.

I'm neither overreacting, nor jumping to conclusions. Your statement is vague and you're not quantifying it or supporting it with facts. Your assertion that Mario's one sack last week wasn't him "earning his keep," doesn't hold water, in my opinion, because our defense ruled the entire day. If you think that Mario Williams needs to have multiple sacks each week in order to justify his salary, I respectfully disagree.

 

If I'm misunderstanding how you believe Mario should be "producing for what he is being paid," then I ask that you clarify/quantify exactly what you believe will be his measure of success.

[Chimp]

Which analysis?

 

Are we talking about the Pressure Points article? That is only covering week 2...I must be dense since I couldn't find a 4 week total which I am sure exists somewhere. Any idea where it is?

 

I'm neither overreacting, nor jumping to conclusions. Your statement is vague and you're not quantifying it or supporting it with facts. Your assertion that Mario's one sack last week wasn't him "earning his keep," doesn't hold water, in my opinion, because our defense ruled the entire day. If you think that Mario Williams needs to have multiple sacks each week in order to justify his salary, I respectfully disagree.

 

If I'm misunderstanding how you believe Mario should be "producing for what he is being paid," then I ask that you clarify/quantify exactly what you believe will be his measure of success.

 

Read this https://www.profootb...g-productivity/

All I am saying is that for what he is paid I expect that he would be a more consistent pass rush threat like a Ware, Smith, Suggs. He isn't close.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Chimp

[NoSaint]

 

 

Go ahead and count for me the number of snaps that Mario is double teamed. Got new for you, this is the NFL and moving the LT back does not do much in disrupting an NFL quarterback. There is still a pocket to step into. It only counts if you create a pressure or a sack. Kyle Williams appears on that list in years when he didn't play with Mario Williams and Dareus was supposed to be a powerhouse inside. Most 4-3 tackles are not doubled every play so you should be able to whip a guard often enough to appear on that list.

 

 

 

No, that would be your own overreaction and jumping to conclusions. I simply stated that Mario should be actually producing for what he is being paid.

 

Part of what makes Mario effective is he doesn't just run around the outside letting the qb step up freely into a hole he created. With his size, strength and technique he does well maintaining responsibilities inside on both the run and pass game while still generating pressure

[stony]

Go ahead and count for me the number of snaps that Mario is double teamed. Got new for you, this is the NFL and moving the LT back does not do much in disrupting an NFL quarterback. There is still a pocket to step into. It only counts if you create a pressure or a sack. Kyle Williams appears on that list in years when he didn't play with Mario Williams and Dareus was supposed to be a powerhouse inside. Most 4-3 tackles are not doubled every play so you should be able to whip a guard often enough to appear on that list.

 

 

 

No, that would be your own overreaction and jumping to conclusions. I simply stated that Mario should be actually producing for what he is being paid.

 

You just gotta get over what he is being paid. He's playing well, but if he doesn't get 20 sacks will he ever be worth it? Who cares. Not our money.

[thebandit27]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even when it is wrong. Are you implying that Mario Williams was more effective than Suggs in that game? That is pretty astonishing considering Mario had one sack where he chased the QB out of bounds because nothing was open.

 

So I thought I would go back and look at the passing statistics from both teams as just a quick let's see how effective the pass rush was at a basic level. Turns out if you basically multiple the Bills passing numbers by 2.2 you come up with a stat line that is almost identical. Now statistically speaking that may be off, but at a basic level you double everything because Baltimore had 50 passing attempts while Buffalo had 22. You multiply all by 2.2 and the sacks, interceptions, yards, touchdowns are all virtually the same.

 

By definition, an opinion cannot be wrong; it can be disagreed with, or run contrary to mainstream belief.

 

As to your question, I believe that Mario was at least as effective as Suggs, yes. I can say the same thing about Suggs as you said about Mario: he had one sack where he basically came un-blocked. I feel that pointing to PFF's relatively nebulous PRR stat to support the idea that Mario isn't playing as well as--for instance--Suggs, while disregarding the game stats that tell you he is, is a bit double-sided.

 

The whole game needs to be analyzed to judge a player's effectiveness. Mario is getting sacks, yes, but what's more important than that is he's creating opportunities for his teammates. For example, dive deeper into the PRR stat and notice that both Kyle and Dareus are in the top 15. That's largely because of the attention that Mario draws. Look back at the week 1 matchup against the Patriots, where they--on multiple occasions--brought in Marcus Cannon as an extra OT, lined him up at LT, and positioned starting LT Nate Solder as a TE next to RT Sebastian Vollmer. They did this on both running and passing plays in order to block Mario with two OTs; that's the kind of thing that opposing coaches are having to do to neutralize him.

 

There's a reason the team is one of the best pass-rushing teams in the NFL right now, and a lot of it has to do with Mario.

[K-9]

Which analysis?

 

 

 

Read this https://www.profootb...g-productivity/

All I am saying is that for what he is paid I expect that he would be a more consistent pass rush threat like a Ware, Smith, Suggs. He isn't close.

 

He's a COMPLETELY different type of player than those you cite. And used in completely different ways as well. How familiar are you with his career going back to his college days?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[34-78-83]

PFF is football's version of astrology. It's interesting, kinda cool... There's some conclusions that can be drawn from it at times. And that's about where it ends. Virtual Mario might not be cutting it for some, but real Mario in 2013 appears to be playing at a high level getting sacks, drawing doubles and playing the run, all while dealing with the same injury our sit-out man Byrd has , along with an ankle injury.

[Gugny]

Which analysis?

 

 

 

Read this https://www.profootb...g-productivity/

All I am saying is that for what he is paid I expect that he would be a more consistent pass rush threat like a Ware, Smith, Suggs. He isn't close.

I read it. Where does he fall on the list?

 

Also, Ware, Smith and Suggs all play for defenses that have given up more points than the Buffalo Bills' defense.

 

Isn't that what's most important? Do you think Buffalo's defense would be that effective without Mario Williams?

[dave mcbride]

I like Mario, but in the Baltimore game he bull rushed practically every play and wasn't particularly effective. He's had better games. The standard I hold him to is Bruce Smith, who could both bull rush AND get around the edge to the QB.

Edited October 3, 2013 by dave mcbride

[thebandit27]

I'd also like to point out that there are many "advanced stats" outfits out there, so PFF's isn't the only analysis into which it is worth diving. There's also:

 

Football Outsiders

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

 

Notice that not only is Buffalo's pass defense ranked 5th in DVOA, but also the team ranks 6th in the NFL in runs off right tackle (which come right at Mario) and 4th in runs around right end (on which Mario is responsible for setting the edge). Run defense counts too when evaluating players.

 

Advanced NFL Stats

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defenderstats.php?pos=DE

 

Where Mario ranks 10th in WPA

 

My point is: this stuff is all relative. If you want to see Mario's impact on the game, watch how other teams game plan against him.

 

I like Mario, but in the Baltimore game he bull rushed practically every play and wasn't particularly effective. He's had better games. The standard I hold him to is Bruce Smith, who could both bull rush AND get around the edge to the QB.

 

So Mario has to be as good as one of the three greatest defensive ends of all time (obviously Reggie and Deacon are the others) in order to have a good game?

[Kirby Jackson]

It has been said on here 100 times but Mario is having a really good year. The consistent double teams that he has drawn have let other guys get loose and make plays. If you are questioning his performance I question whether or not you really understand what you are watching. He has been tough against the run and a factor in the passing game. The stats will come but stats are not nearly as important as the impact that a particular player makes.

[thebandit27]

It has been said on here 100 times but Mario is having a really good year. The consistent double teams that he has drawn have let other guys get loose and make plays. If you are questioning his performance I question whether or not you really understand what you are watching. He has been tough against the run and a factor in the passing game. The stats will come but stats are not nearly as important as the impact that a particular player makes.

 

I don't think it's an issue of not understanding it so much as not paying really close attention to it...it's easy, as a fan, to get lost in following the play and the ball and not focus on the play of a particular lineman.

[NoSaint]

I'd also like to point out that there are many "advanced stats" outfits out there, so PFF's isn't the only analysis into which it is worth diving. There's also:

 

Football Outsiders

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

 

Notice that not only is Buffalo's pass defense ranked 5th in DVOA, but also the team ranks 6th in the NFL in runs off right tackle (which come right at Mario) and 4th in runs around right end (on which Mario is responsible for setting the edge). Run defense counts too when evaluating players.

 

Advanced NFL Stats

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defenderstats.php?pos=DE

 

Where Mario ranks 10th in WPA

 

My point is: this stuff is all relative. If you want to see Mario's impact on the game, watch how other teams game plan against him.

 

 

 

So Mario has to be as good as one of the three greatest defensive ends of all time (obviously Reggie and Deacon are the others) in order to have a good game?

 

Which is a prime example of Suggs rushing the passer well on a defense that gave up 200 more rushing yards. I think people forget we have a big strong 300 lbs de that can also get to the qb - not just a pure edge rusher

[BigBuff423]

I realize with all the money thrown at him to come to Buffalo he will be under greater scrutiny, but let's be fair...the Defense as a whole is the main concern. He could be getting 10 sacks a game, and if the Defense was playing horribly, it truly wouldn't matter. However, he could have 5 sacks on the season but if the Defense was in the top 5, there would be no discussion because somewhere in the middle of all that, he would be doing his job as directed by the coaching staff, since having a top 5 Defense requires 11 players (and their subs) to be playing as one coehesive unit. That said, I understand the frustration of not seeing a playmaker make plays....but let's look at the totality of circumstances before we start fitting him for the cross of crucifixion.

[RealityCheck]

Which is a prime example of Suggs rushing the passer well on a defense that gave up 200 more rushing yards. I think people forget we have a big strong 300 lbs de that can also get to the qb - not just a pure edge rusher

This says it all. Mario is far more disruptive overall, down after down, than most of these other premier DEs and OLBrs. Playing the run at his level is proving to be a thankless job for some fans. To appreciate what he is doing this year, you really have to zero in on the guy for an entire drive. It's impressive. The man is working.

[K-9]

This says it all. Mario is far more disruptive overall, down after down, than most of these other premier DEs and OLBrs. Playing the run at his level is proving to be a thankless job for some fans. To appreciate what he is doing this year, you really have to zero in on the guy for an entire drive. It's impressive. The man is working.

 

^Yep.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

I don't think it's an issue of not understanding it so much as not paying really close attention to it...it's easy, as a fan, to get lost in following the play and the ball and not focus on the play of a particular lineman.

 

Well said, that is what I was trying to get at. You articulated it much better. You cannot check the box score Monday morning to determine the kind of game that Mario had. This year, he has been exactly what we hoped for and some are still complaining. He has been a disruptive force that teams have to gameplan for. It has been a long time since we had someone like that. Even though Schoebel was a good pass rusher, he was bad against the run. Mario is a complete player and a guy that I am glad is on this team.

[Captain Hindsight]

5.5 sacks in 4 games and he sucks

 

 

Mario has played very well this year and was getting held on every play against the Jets. I have no complaints about his play.

 

People forget this is exactly who he was in Houston. Don't know when he turned into Bruce in peoples minds because he isn't Bruce