Disassembling the Patriots

[Dean Cain]

Shouldn't we be discussing how to kill the Patriots?

 

Looking at the 2013 Patriots free agents it's obvious the Patriots are vulnerable to mass defections at key positions of strength, and key positions where they are weak. The Bills would be wise to target the Patriots at their core.

 

Here is what I'm proposing:

 

#1 Offer our 2nd & 3rd round pick in 2014 for Ryan Mallett

#2 Sign Wes Welker WR

#3 Sign Julian Edelman WR

#4 Sign Sebastian Vollmer T

#5 Sign Aqib Talib CB

 

Now I know we aren't going to get all 5 of these guys, but the idea is we can make the Patriots weaker by: A - forcing them to pay more to retain their talent, B - taking their talent making them weaker and us stronger, & C - eliminating their depth at key positions QB, WR, T, CB while adding to ours.

 

Here is my rationale further explained:

• Quarterback: Mallett IMO is a guy they have confidence in to step in for Brady much like Cassel did in 2008. At the very least Mallett should be a guy who could play backup in Buffalo and possibly be a strong starter at a Flacco level. Also such a move would weaken New England's depth and further stretch out their resources at QB. The worse case scenario if we were to acquire Mallett would be that he sucks and we'd lose a couple of draft picks that Nix was likely to miss on anyway. Furthermore the Bills aren't likely to get Geno Smith a QB many consider to be the #1 overall pick in the draft
  
• Wide Receiver: The Patriots have so many weapons, but many of them are Tight Ends. Edelman & Welker are slot receivers who do so much for New England underneath. Further more Welker has just set an NFL record 5 100 catch seasons. Welker will be 33 next season, but he hasn't shown any signs of slowing down. Eliminating these receivers and adding them to our roster would also free up space for Johnson.
  
• Offensive Tackle: The Bills could benefit from Vollmer who is better suited at RT. The Bills have zero rushing touchdowns rushing outside of their right guard. Vollmer is valuable asset and won't come cheap. He will likely be the #2 sought after T in FA outside of Jake Long.
  
• Cornerback: The Patriots #1 weakness has been at corner the past 5 years. Taking Talib would further deplete their secondary and allow the Bills to move away from the McGee & possibly make McKelvin expendable.
  

Go Bills!

[Meathead]

#1 drop a daisy cutter on marcias house

 

thats the only way youre gonna stop them. hes a one man team and the only reason belicheat isnt the painfully mediocre surly nobody he always has been

 

no idea why that came out underlined but it does look dramatic doesnt it

[Dean Cain]

#1 drop a daisy cutter on marcias house

 

thats the only way youre gonna stop them. hes a one man team and the only reason belicheat isnt the painfully mediocre surly nobody he always has been

 

no idea why that came out underlined but it does look dramatic doesnt it

 

Your thought process is why we suck. Marcia aka Mr. Tom Brady is a system quarterback who has a strong football iq, is ultra competitive, strong armed & deadly accurate.

 

Taking away Brady's strengths Welker, Edelman, Vollmer would hurt him. Perhaps you under estimate the talent assembled around him?

 

Gronk & Hernandez would be forced to do more work & those 2 haven't proven themselves to be durable.

[ko12010]

#1 drop a daisy cutter on marcias house

 

thats the only way youre gonna stop them. hes a one man team and the only reason belicheat isnt the painfully mediocre surly nobody he always has been

 

no idea why that came out underlined but it does look dramatic doesnt it

 

I have no idea why people ever try and say something like this. If anything, Belichek made Brady, imo. Yeah Belichek was mediocre in Cleveland but seriously, who hasn't been there? Belichek is one of the best coaches ever and if Brady is drafted by any of the other 31 teams, he's out of the league in 5 years.

 

Belichek gave Brady a shot and helped develop him into a star. Brady ran with it, having that inner fortitude and motivation that all-time greats always have.

 

There's no one without the other, they both needed each other, but Belichek certainly started Brady on his current trajectory.

[bmur66]

OK

[HamSandwhich]

I like your premise, and though its probably out of the realm of the possibility, I think we should try and focus on getting some of their parts too. Not the Mallet thing though, I wouldn't do that.

[Dean Cain]

I like your premise, and though its probably out of the realm of the possibility, I think we should try and focus on getting some of their parts too. Not the Mallet thing though, I wouldn't do that.

 

Piece by piece. Every team in the division should gang up on the Pats. In 3 years they would be decimated.

[mjt328]

Bad idea.

That team has been interchanging parts (with the exception of Brady) for the last 10+ years, and has very little dropoff.

 

I personally think Wes Welker is tremendously overrated. You could plug pretty much any fast slot receiver into his position and get roughly the same results. Somebody is going to pay the guy a ton of money, and they are going to be very disappointed.

 

I really would have liked to see us take a shot at Mallet two years ago, but I would hate to send draft picks to New England - especially higher picks than what we could have had him at two years ago.

[RealityCheck]

I have no idea why people ever try and say something like this. If anything, Belichek made Brady, imo. Yeah Belichek was mediocre in Cleveland but seriously, who hasn't been there? Belichek is one of the best coaches ever and if Brady is drafted by any of the other 31 teams, he's out of the league in 5 years.

 

Belichek gave Brady a shot and helped develop him into a star. Brady ran with it, having that inner fortitude and motivation that all-time greats always have.

 

There's no one without the other, they both needed each other, but Belichek certainly started Brady on his current trajectory.

Good stuff. Meathead's opinion is wrong but your stack of assumptions is right?

[Dean Cain]

Bad idea.

That team has been interchanging parts (with the exception of Brady) for the last 10+ years, and has very little dropoff.

 

I personally think Wes Welker is tremendously overrated. You could plug pretty much any fast slot receiver into his position and get roughly the same results. Somebody is going to pay the guy a ton of money, and they are going to be very disappointed.

 

I really would have liked to see us take a shot at Mallet two years ago, but I would hate to send draft picks to New England - especially higher picks than what we could have had him at two years ago.

 

How is Welker overated? Just set NFL record for most 100 catch seasons.

 

What are your thoughts on Talib, Vollmer, Edelman?

[BuffaloNick]

 

 

Here is what I'm proposing:

 

#1 Offer our 2nd & 3rd round pick in 2014 for Ryan Mallett

#2 Sign Wes Welker WR

#3 Sign Julian Edelman WR

#4 Sign Sebastian Vollmer T

#5 Sign Aqib Talib CB

 

Go Bills!

 

IMO.....

 

The biggest benefit would be picking up Mallet. Since I don't see anyone in the draft that would be an immediate impact.

 

Welker or Edelman will be nothing to brag about with the Bills. They are only good because of there environment and would be just another WR on a team with an average QB. Any decent WR would be good with Tom Brady. They switch WR all the time.

 

I believe in our O line but if Vollmer came cheap then I would take him.

 

We don't need that sorry CB.

[TakeYouToTasker]

Tom Brady is a system quarterback

This does not logically lead into....

who has a strong football iq, is ultra competitive, strong armed & deadly accurate.

...this.

[ny33]

Shouldn't we be discussing how to kill the Patriots?

 

Looking at the 2013 Patriots free agents it's obvious the Patriots are vulnerable to mass defections at key positions of strength, and key positions where they are weak. The Bills would be wise to target the Patriots at their core.

 

Here is what I'm proposing:

 

#1 Offer our 2nd & 3rd round pick in 2014 for Ryan Mallett

#2 Sign Wes Welker WR

#3 Sign Julian Edelman WR

#4 Sign Sebastian Vollmer T

#5 Sign Aqib Talib CB

 

Now I know we aren't going to get all 5 of these guys, but the idea is we can make the Patriots weaker by: A - forcing them to pay more to retain their talent, B - taking their talent making them weaker and us stronger, & C - eliminating their depth at key positions QB, WR, T, CB while adding to ours.

 

Here is my rationale further explained:

• Quarterback: Mallett IMO is a guy they have confidence in to step in for Brady much like Cassel did in 2008. At the very least Mallett should be a guy who could play backup in Buffalo and possibly be a strong starter at a Flacco level. Also such a move would weaken New England's depth and further stretch out their resources at QB. The worse case scenario if we were to acquire Mallett would be that he sucks and we'd lose a couple of draft picks that Nix was likely to miss on anyway. Furthermore the Bills aren't likely to get Geno Smith a QB many consider to be the #1 overall pick in the draft
  
• Wide Receiver: The Patriots have so many weapons, but many of them are Tight Ends. Edelman & Welker are slot receivers who do so much for New England underneath. Further more Welker has just set an NFL record 5 100 catch seasons. Welker will be 33 next season, but he hasn't shown any signs of slowing down. Eliminating these receivers and adding them to our roster would also free up space for Johnson.
  
• Offensive Tackle: The Bills could benefit from Vollmer who is better suited at RT. The Bills have zero rushing touchdowns rushing outside of their right guard. Vollmer is valuable asset and won't come cheap. He will likely be the #2 sought after T in FA outside of Jake Long.
  
• Cornerback: The Patriots #1 weakness has been at corner the past 5 years. Taking Talib would further deplete their secondary and allow the Bills to move away from the McGee & possibly make McKelvin expendable.
  

Go Bills!

 

 

If the Patriots think Mallett is actually a good QB, there is zero chance they are trading him within the division. This idea is ludicrous.

[Storm Front]

None of these guys would play well anywhere else. Whenever players and coaches from the Pats go to another team they do not have the same success as they did in the Pat's "system." Mark my words, we'll be lucky if we get 4 or 5 sacks out of Mark Anderson.

[Mr. WEO]

I blame ralph for this thread. So sad....

Edited December 20, 2012 by Mr. WEO

[zow2]

I always liked Mallett and was PO'd that the Bills didn't select him. It's kinda' rough for Mallett too as i think he could be starting right now for a handful of teams (including Buffalo) instead of sitting on the bench indefinitely behind the Legend that is Tom Brady. I seriously doubt the Pats would trade him in-division.

[Dean Cain]

This does not logically lead into....

 

...this.

 

The idea of my OP was to have an intelligent discussion on how to take away Brady's weapons.

 

I believe the reason why Brady is good in the Patriots system is because he possesses those qualities. In no way does that make him the same QB as Manning or Rodgers. Brady is not the same down the field passer that Brees, Manning, or Rodgers are. Brady completes most of his passes underneath and beats you deep when you get tired of being bludgeoned to death with all the short passes and runs.

 

But no feel free to say he is not a system quarterback and while your at it neither is Matt Cassel.

 

Let's call the Patriots bluff. If they are so enamored with Mallett then they won't trade him. If they decide he is movable as they did Drew Bledsoe then we will benefit & the Patriots will be without their #2 QB.

Edited December 20, 2012 by BigCountryBills

[Billsrhody]

I'm not sure why Talib is on that list.. the patriots just signed him a few weeks ago and he is in no way an integral part of the team.

I wouldn't want to pay Welker the kind of money he will demand on the open market.

Edelman is the 6th receiving option on that team, at best. He would not be missed in the offense.

 

Mallet is an interesting one.. although its probably the least likely of all of them.

Volmer would be a welcome addition, but I doubt the pats are willing to part with him.

[C.Biscuit97]

IF you take Brady off the Pats, the AFC might have a below .500 team win the division. The Bills averaged 30+ against them. How many teams can go 2-0 giving up more than 30 points to a team? Brady is a feminine snob but he is one of the greatest QBs to ever play this game. I laugh at people trying to say Brady isn't that good. He's played with a lot of crappy receivers and wins every year. He is the single reason Belichick became a genius after being Jauron like in Cleveland. The PAts drafts may have been worse than the Bills the last 5 years.

 

I think Fitz gets too much blame but if you swap QBs, we're the playoff team and the Pats are 5-9 at best. It's really that simple.

[ko12010]

Good stuff. Meathead's opinion is wrong but your stack of assumptions is right?

 

 

Yep! Great analysis of my post, buddy. Although just so you know, 'imo' means 'in my opinion'. As this is a message board, anything posted is going to be, of course, opinion.

 

Thanks for the Reality Check though.

[T master]

I don't think there is enough money in Buffalo to sign all of those players , but i guess it doesn't hurt to dream !!

 

We may be able to get a couple of them which could help out a ton !!

[ny33]

The idea of my OP was to have an intelligent discussion on how to take away Brady's weapons.

 

I believe the reason why Brady is good in the Patriots system is because he possesses those qualities. In no way does that make him the same QB as Manning or Rodgers. Brady is not the same down the field passer that Brees, Manning, or Rodgers are. Brady completes most of his passes underneath and beats you deep when you get tired of being bludgeoned to death with all the short passes and runs.

 

But no feel free to say he is not a system quarterback and while your at it neither is Matt Cassel.

 

Let's call the Patriots bluff. If they are so enamored with Mallett then they won't trade him. If they decide he is movable as they did Drew Bledsoe then we will benefit & the Patriots will be without their #2 QB.

 

If they decide he is movable, and trade him to Buffalo, we'll probably have traded a second rounder for a mediocre QB. The guy's been on the roster long enough for the Patriots, and only the Patriots, to have a good idea of his capabilities. He is staying on that team until the last year of his contract at the least.

[Al Cowlings]

Shouldn't we be discussing how to kill the Patriots?

 

Looking at the 2013 Patriots free agents it's obvious the Patriots are vulnerable to mass defections at key positions of strength, and key positions where they are weak. The Bills would be wise to target the Patriots at their core.

 

Here is what I'm proposing:

 

#1 Offer our 2nd & 3rd round pick in 2014 for Ryan Mallett

#2 Sign Wes Welker WR

#3 Sign Julian Edelman WR

#4 Sign Sebastian Vollmer T

#5 Sign Aqib Talib CB

 

Now I know we aren't going to get all 5 of these guys, but the idea is we can make the Patriots weaker by: A - forcing them to pay more to retain their talent, B - taking their talent making them weaker and us stronger, & C - eliminating their depth at key positions QB, WR, T, CB while adding to ours.

 

Here is my rationale further explained:

• Quarterback: Mallett IMO is a guy they have confidence in to step in for Brady much like Cassel did in 2008. At the very least Mallett should be a guy who could play backup in Buffalo and possibly be a strong starter at a Flacco level. Also such a move would weaken New England's depth and further stretch out their resources at QB. The worse case scenario if we were to acquire Mallett would be that he sucks and we'd lose a couple of draft picks that Nix was likely to miss on anyway. Furthermore the Bills aren't likely to get Geno Smith a QB many consider to be the #1 overall pick in the draft
  
• Wide Receiver: The Patriots have so many weapons, but many of them are Tight Ends. Edelman & Welker are slot receivers who do so much for New England underneath. Further more Welker has just set an NFL record 5 100 catch seasons. Welker will be 33 next season, but he hasn't shown any signs of slowing down. Eliminating these receivers and adding them to our roster would also free up space for Johnson.
  
• Offensive Tackle: The Bills could benefit from Vollmer who is better suited at RT. The Bills have zero rushing touchdowns rushing outside of their right guard. Vollmer is valuable asset and won't come cheap. He will likely be the #2 sought after T in FA outside of Jake Long.
  
• Cornerback: The Patriots #1 weakness has been at corner the past 5 years. Taking Talib would further deplete their secondary and allow the Bills to move away from the McGee & possibly make McKelvin expendable.
  

Go Bills!

 

No one wants to come to Buffalo. Why in the world would Wes Welker decide to end his career here? The only way to get anyone here is to really over pay for them-see Mario Williams. he to probably regrets the fact that he signed here.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

That's what really scares me about this. How's Cassel done since he's left NE?? But I'd probably take the chance for a 2nd and 3rd in 2014 if you could pull that off.

 

Welker I think is too old for the money he's going to likely get. Edelman and Talib part I like as those are two spots that need improvement though what we really need at WR is a guy with big guy with speed. Is Edelman really that or are we getting more of another SJ?? At RT we have two guys that are both decent, as I've said about almost any area of the team WR, LB line, etc, you don't need great players at all positions. Assuming they resign AL you have four solid positions. In fact I'd much rather see whatever $$ you're going to pay Vollmer, instead give it to Andy L.

 

It's great to "disassemble the Pats", but only if you're absolutely certain it does improve the Bill's. Some of these suggested moves may be more done to spite them!

 

: Mallett IMO is a guy they have confidence in to step in for Brady much like Cassel did in 2008.

[Dean Cain]

We have ZERO rushing touchdowns to the right outside of our right guards right shoulder. That lends me to believe we can't run right like Derek Zoolander can't turn left.

 

Vollmer or Jake Long would be welcome additions. Wes Welker would be a solid #2 slot receiver.

 

Mallett has a cannon & a strong arm & by all accounts a high football IQ. It would be worth a gamble for a few picks.

 

Talib is a solid corner who would combine with Gilmore to press receivers.

 

We have a $120 million salary cap to work with & we will likely release: Fitz, Kelsay, Pears, McGee if these deals can be made.

 

Pull these moves off & we could also possibly get Manti T'eo as well.

Edited December 20, 2012 by BigCountryBills

[gumby]

You can't take away Brady's weapons. They'll just be replaced with new WR and suddenly they will become stars. It's Brady that makes those receivers go not the other way around.

[section122]

I don't get this thread...

 

We are going to make the Pats* weaker by taking their depth, and then trade a 2nd and 3rd round pick for their backup qb?!?!?!?! Wouldn't that give them the ammunition to refill their depth? What am I missing here?

[Dean Cain]

I don't get this thread...

 

We are going to make the Pats* weaker by taking their depth, and then trade a 2nd and 3rd round pick for their backup qb?!?!?!?! Wouldn't that give them the ammunition to refill their depth? What am I missing here?

 

This is a 2 pronged attack.

 

First, Let's find out what Mallett is worth. If we are going to spend a 1st, 2nd or 3rd in the '13 draft on a rookie don't you think it be worth investigating Mallett, a guy who has 1st round potential but teams shied away from due to off-field issues? We will find out in '13 if Mallett is worth the risk. If he busts than we likely get Johnny Football. If he performs and I believe he will, then will have acquired a solid starter for years.

 

Second, why not acquire players from the Patriots or force them to over spend to retain them? This is what the Yankees & Red Sox having been doing to each other for years. It's time to compete.

Edited December 20, 2012 by BigCountryBills

[section122]

This is a 2 pronged attack.

 

First, Let's find out what Mallett is worth. If we are going to spend a 1st, 2nd or 3rd in the '13 draft on a rookie don't you think it be worth investigating Mallett, a guy who has 1st round potential but teams shied away from due to off-field issues? We will find out in '13 if Mallett is worth the risk. If he busts than we likely get Johnny Football. If he performs and I believe he will, then will have acquired a solid starter for years.

 

Second, why not acquire players from the Patriots or force them to over spend to retain them? This is what the Yankees & Red Sox having been doing to each other for years. It's time to compete.

No I don't. He was passed over multiple times by every team in the league. I would prefer someone without off field baggage and a 1st/2nd rounder. As for your second paragraph forcing them to overspend is not a bad idea - giving them draft picks to reload with is - which is what is suggested in the op. It doesn't deplete them of anything.

[KeisterHollow]

I admire your intention. However, I believe any expense of energy not solely concentrated on how to fix our own team, how to make it as sound and strong as possible, would be a misuse of our resources. There are too many good teams to base your strategy on adapting to one or a few; it's more sustainable and, I believe, more successful, to get good enough at what you do to force opposing teams to adapt to you. It's more than the talent on the field, its the attitude and level the players and coaches hold themselves to.

[ProbablyWrong]

Talib would be the.most valuable with mckelvin in the nickel/returning kicks. Vollmer.would also be an upgrade.

 

I see no reason to go for Mallett over any other QB backup/FA, and the WRs really won't give us a great upgrade with welker aging and no deep threat.

[JPS]

#1 drop a daisy cutter on marcias house

 

thats the only way youre gonna stop them. hes a one man team and the only reason belicheat isnt the painfully mediocre surly nobody he always has been

 

no idea why that came out underlined but it does look dramatic doesnt it

You are absolutely correct. Take away Edelman and Welker and Brady will make a Naaman Roosevelt or some other nobody a household name. He's that good.

[Dean Cain]

You are absolutely correct. Take away Edelman and Welker and Brady will make a Naaman Roosevelt or some other nobody a household name. He's that good.

 

That's right, Welker just beat Jerry Rice's NFL record and moved into sole possession with five 100 catch seasons. Yep Welker is a nobody. He is easily replaced in the Patriots offense.

 

Question: How many catches did Welker have in 2008 with Matt Cassel?

Answer: 111

Edited December 20, 2012 by BigCountryBills

[AReed Deep For6]

I would like this post more if it was "Disemboweling the Patriots"

[ny33]

Jake Long will get big money to be someone's LT. He will not be a RT at a salary we can afford.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

We already have a solid #2 in Stevie Johnson. We need a #1 I like SJ, he's way over achieving, but he's really a #2

 

 

Wes Welker would be a solid #2 slot receiver.

[Doc]

The Pats will most likely lose Welker this off-season. So that's one less weapon. As for the Bills, they need a real starting QB and they'll have a chance every time.

 

Speaking of the Pats, that loss to the 49'ers basically killed their chances at a first-round bye. They're 10-4, while 12-2 Houston will beat Minny at home and/or Indy on the road, while the 11-3 Broncos will easily beat the Browns and Chefs.

[Jim in Anchorage]

I admire your intention. However, I believe any expense of energy not solely concentrated on how to fix our own team, how to make it as sound and strong as possible, would be a misuse of our resources. There are too many good teams to base your strategy on adapting to one or a few; it's more sustainable and, I believe, more successful, to get good enough at what you do to force opposing teams to adapt to you. It's more than the talent on the field, its the attitude and level the players and coaches hold themselves to.

Exactly.The NE obsession here is near psychotic. Lets say for the NE conspiracy buffs here the NFL just awards NE 16 wins a season. The Bills could still be 14-2 IF THEY GOT THEIR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER.

[Dean Cain]

Exactly.The NE obsession here is near psychotic. Lets say for the NE conspiracy buffs here the NFL just awards NE 16 wins a season. The Bills could still be 14-2 IF THEY GOT THEIR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER.

 

Maybe because the Patriots kick our ass every year?

 

Even with Brady out in 2008 we managed to get beat twice by them finish 7-9 while New England went 11-5. In 2009 Brady's first year back from injury the Patriots went 10-6. How is it that Matt Cassel posted a better record then Brady?

 

There are too many Bills fans that simply sum up the difference between the Patriots & Bills as they have Tom Brady, or Bill Belichick.

 

Look at the drafts since 2000. Look at the facts, understand how they build their team using the draft & free agency. You can learn a lot by emulating your enemy. Does coaching play a part? of course, but by and large I will contend that New England has a winning formula that we haven't yet decoded.

 

Since 2000 New England is 149-57 with 5540 points scored to 3867 against. 11 double digit winning seasons.

Since 2000 Buffalo is 81-125 with 3975 points scored to 4691 against. 0 double digit winning seasons.

 

In order to take down New England once and for all we need to attack them on and off the field. We simply need to start challenging them.

 

But lets simply sum this up as Belichick is a genius and / or Brady is a god.

[Jim in Anchorage]

Maybe because the Patriots kick our ass every year?

 

Even with Brady out in 2008 we managed to get beat twice by them finish 7-9 while New England went 11-5. In 2009 Brady's first year back from injury the Patriots went 10-6. How is it that Matt Cassel posted a better record then Brady?

 

There are too many Bills fans that simply sum up the difference between the Patriots & Bills as they have Tom Brady, or Bill Belichick.

 

Look at the drafts since 2000. Look at the facts, understand how they build their team using the draft & free agency. You can learn a lot by emulating your enemy. Does coaching play a part? of course, but by and large I will contend that New England has a winning formula that we haven't yet decoded.

 

Since 2000 New England is 149-57 with 5540 points scored to 3867 against. 11 double digit winning seasons.

Since 2000 Buffalo is 81-125 with 3975 points scored to 4691 against. 0 double digit winning seasons.

 

In order to take down New England once and for all we need to attack them on and off the field. We simply need to start challenging them.

 

But lets simply sum this up as Belichick is a genius and / or Brady is a god.

You missed my point entirely. We can't even beat the Jets. Let's fix the team BEFORE we set sights on the big kid on the block.