NoSaint Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 (edited) I guess this is nearing conclusion now. Curious to see what they do with the reinstatement of Gregg, and the conditional pick being stripped this coming draft. Also Vilmas defamation suit I've said for awhile they'd call the team penalties water under the bridge to avoid having to "fix" them and let the players off. Edited December 11, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maybe Someday Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 I guess this is nearing conclusion now. Curious to see what they do with the reinstatement of Gregg, and the conditional pick being stripped this coming draft. Also Vilmas defamation suit I've said for awhile they'd call the team penalties water under the bridge to avoid having to "fix" them and let the players off. Likely nothing. The player suspensions were vacated, not the coaches or organizational penalties. Tags basically concluded that the Saints coaches and organization were more at fault than the players…at least that’s what I took out of the comment below. "Unlike Saints' broad organizational misconduct, player appeals involve sharply focused issues of alleged individual player misconduct in several different aspects," Tagliabue said in a statement released by the league. "My affirmation of Commissioner Goodell's findings could certainly justify the issuance of fines. However, this entire case has been contaminated by the coaches and others in the Saints' organization." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 (edited) Goodell's mistake was saying the bounty pool was an "intent to injure" incentive, instead of a performance pool. just to high of a threshold to actually prove in a court of law that the intent was to injure fellow players.....(even though that is exactly what is was). Drew Brees, Jonathan Vilma and Greg Williams ( you can add in head coach and GM) are all pieces of chit. Tagliabue "The decisions have made clear that the Saints operated a bounty program in violation of league rules for three years, that the program endangered player safety, and that the commissioner has the authority under the CBA to impose discipline for those actions as conduct detrimental to the league. "Strong action was taken in this matter to protect player safety and ensure that bounties would be eliminated from football." http://espn.go.com/n...ounty-penalties Edited December 11, 2012 by papazoid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwight in philly Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 hopefully it is over, i am sick of reading about it, hearing about it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 11, 2012 Author Share Posted December 11, 2012 Likely nothing. The player suspensions were vacated, not the coaches or organizational penalties. Tags basically concluded that the Saints coaches and organization were more at fault than the players…at least that’s what I took out of the comment below. "Unlike Saints' broad organizational misconduct, player appeals involve sharply focused issues of alleged individual player misconduct in several different aspects," Tagliabue said in a statement released by the league. "My affirmation of Commissioner Goodell's findings could certainly justify the issuance of fines. However, this entire case has been contaminated by the coaches and others in the Saints' organization." neither thing has anything to do with the tags ruling today - just things that still arent resolved that will still need to be addressed moving forward. i wasnt implying letting gregg in early. his is indefinite, so whether he gets in this year is still to be resolved. itll come up eventually. the draft pick has been conditional from the start, but the terms werent made public. im curious if they stick to the original or if they let it be removed from the punishment which was a possibility when the punishment was handed down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tu-Toned Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Without reading the other comments here, the first thing that comes to my mind, is what a terribly embarrasing situation this is for the NFL, big black mark in my mind, and certaily a credibility issue for them for years to come. Maybe this will help to corral Goodell some, and keep him from straying too far from what the important issues are and will help to reign in some of his self-appointed far reaching powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 11, 2012 Author Share Posted December 11, 2012 and jonathan vilma has announced he still intends to pursue his defamation case. i think thats very interesting as continuing to force this into a court of law benefits him in almost no way now (besides reputation) but risks perjury if hes just completely lying about everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRHater69 Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 This will reflect poorly on Goodell. He went too far this time. It has not been a good stretch for him, with this and the disaster of the replacement refs at the start of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Too bad. Vilma is a complete thug, but the outcome isn't surprising. What's nauseating is his aggrieved posturing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 (edited) and jonathan vilma has announced he still intends to pursue his defamation case. i think thats very interesting as continuing to force this into a court of law benefits him in almost no way now (besides reputation) but risks perjury if hes just completely lying about everything. Vilma has every right to pursue this matter and extract whatever justice $$$$ he can for what the Commissioner put him and others through. The process in which his short career was placed in jeopardy was a sham. Vilma courageously called out Goodell and challenged him to show the evidence. RG was not forthright in doing so. Was it due to the fact that the evidence was flimsy and open to interpreation or was it due to the fact that he didn't want expose those who offered the evidence? The bottom line is that the person Goodell selected to review the evidence concluded that the punishment was unwarranted based on the evidence. In my view it is obvious why Goodell was willing to select someone to review this case. He clearly doesn't want an outside legal authority to review this case and process. What Goodell has come to recognize is that Vilma is no slouch who is going to allow a powerful figure in his profession to bully him. I congratulate Vilma for his courage. This saga is as much about the unbalanced process as it was about the bounty issue. I salute Vilma for his stance. Edited December 11, 2012 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 11, 2012 Author Share Posted December 11, 2012 Too bad. Vilma is a complete thug, but the outcome isn't surprising. What's nauseating is his aggrieved posturing. can i ask what hes done to be named a complete thug? is it just the one accusation, or is there more to the assessment? he was a 4 year college player, 3 times leading his team in tackles. he graduated with a finance degree and was a 3 time academic all conference team award winner. hes considered one of the biggest students of the game. no arrests and now with his suspension vacated hes risking perjury just to clear his reputation, with nothing else to gain. hes a pillar in the community here. and ive several times seen him out and about being among the friendliest players around. other than this one accusation hes got a pretty impressive resume for the "not thug" category. just curious where the "complete thug" arguments are coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Kudos to Tagliabue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Vilma has every right to pursue this matter and extract whatever justice $$$$ he can for what the Commissioner put him and others through. The process in which his short career was placed in jeopardy was a sham. Vilma courageously called out Goodell and challenged him to show the evidence. RG was not forthright in doing so. Was it due to the fact that the evidence was flimsy and open to interpreation or was it due to the fact that he didn't want expose those who offered the evidence? The bottom line is that the person Goodell selected to review the evidence concluded that the punishment was unwarranted based on the evidence. In my view it is obvious why Goodell was willing to select someone to review this case. He clearly doesn't want an outside legal authority to review this case and process. What Goodell has come to recognize is that Vilma is no slouch who is going to allow a powerful figure in his profession to bully him. I congratulate Vilma for his courage. This saga is as much about the unbalanced process as it was about the bounty issue. I salute Vilma for his stance. Agree 100% The more that came out about this case, the more it seemed Goodell had nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Goodell Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 hopefully it is over, i am sick of reading about it, hearing about it.. Ditto. In fact, I think we'll just destory all the files ASAP so we can focus on the healing process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Ditto. In fact, I think we'll just destory all the files ASAP so we can focus on the healing process. hahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonborn10 Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Tagliabue rode off to into the sunset with a new contract between the players and the owners. Only two owners voted against it. The media said Tagliabue came to the rescue of all the fans while a cheapskate and an old baffoon voted against the deal. Three years later the whole thing blew up and almost cost the fans real games. Now he takes the easy way out. Yes their was a bounty scandal but no I don't think the players should be suspended for it. Nice backbone their Paul. With that logic, the next thing we will hear is Ed Hoculie say is, holding against the offense, do-over, First and Ten. No crime here, nothing to see, move along... Weak... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zulu Cthulhu Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 It's easier to understand why Tagliabue simultaneously (rightfully) vacated the players' suspensions while also covering Goodell's ass the best he could when you realize Goodell is also Tags' biggest client. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddenboy Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Completely disagree. He just helped his slim chances. 1) who votes for HOF? HOF members, who are players, who will be happy Tags sided with players. And writers, who dont have a dog in the fight, but will recognize that Tags did it for the Shield, which is what you want a Commish to do. 2) He just saved the league and/or Goodell money by weakening any defamation suits. He didnt kill them, but they just took on a little water for sure. 3) ask yourself "how could Tags have improved his HOF chances by siding with Goodell?" Roger doesnt get a HOF vote, and neither do the owners (except Ralph, of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Completely disagree. He just helped his slim chances. 1) who votes for HOF? HOF members, who are players, who will be happy Tags sided with players. And writers, who dont have a dog in the fight, but will recognize that Tags did it for the Shield, which is what you want a Commish to do. 2) He just saved the league and/or Goodell money by weakening any defamation suits. He didnt kill them, but they just took on a little water for sure. 3) ask yourself "how could Tags have improved his HOF chances by siding with Goodell?" Roger doesnt get a HOF vote, and neither do the owners (except Ralph, of course). That just about covers it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 For the opposite view: http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/12/view-from-new-orleans-on-tagliabues-saints-bounty-ruling/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 The best part is that moron Vilma is still going forward with his suit despite Tagliabu confirming the facts of the case against Vilma. Vilma is claiming he was "defamed" because Goodell named the wrong QB he offered money for to injur (it was Favre, not Warner). Anyway, time for a judge to dismiss the class action suit against the league for injuries players sustained. Here we have players and their union supporting the practice of incentivizing players to intentionally injur eachother. How is any of this the League's fault? These guys have no interest in "player safety". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 (edited) can i ask what hes done to be named a complete thug? is it just the one accusation, or is there more to the assessment? he was a 4 year college player, 3 times leading his team in tackles. he graduated with a finance degree and was a 3 time academic all conference team award winner. hes considered one of the biggest students of the game. no arrests and now with his suspension vacated hes risking perjury just to clear his reputation, with nothing else to gain. hes a pillar in the community here. and ive several times seen him out and about being among the friendliest players around. other than this one accusation hes got a pretty impressive resume for the "not thug" category. just curious where the "complete thug" arguments are coming from. Um, what he said before the games, which is on record? That is, offering money to take players out? Are we that jaded that this is OK?? I'm admittedly biased against Miami (although I dislike college football in general too), but so many thuggish players have come out of that program over the years that I've lost count. As for Vilma at the U: http://profootballta...a-to-bounties/. Also, http://sports.yahoo....lma_allegations . You're welcome to believe that he's a fine, upstanding citizen from a spotless program. After all, many people treat Ray Lewis as a model citizen. I simply beg to differ. Edited December 12, 2012 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 (edited) Um, what he said before the games, which is on record? That is, offering money to take players out? Are we that jaded that this is OK?? I'm admittedly biased against Miami (although I dislike college football in general too), but so many thuggish players have come out of that program over the years that I've lost count. As for Vilma at the U: http://profootballta...a-to-bounties/. Also, http://sports.yahoo....lma_allegations . You're welcome to believe that he's a fine, upstanding citizen from a spotless program. After all, many people treat Ray Lewis as a model citizen. I simply beg to differ. im familiar with boosters (especially shapiro) giving money at miami. i wouldnt qualify that as "complete thug" im also not sure how well documented you think the 10k on favre. cerullo and williams gave totally different accounts of the entire playoff run (who had physical possession of the money, what games it happened at - just wiiiiide gaps between the two of them on the story), and 10+ players and coaches have gone under oath to say that it didnt happen. vilma, with nothing to gain but his reputation, and facing legal consequences if hes lying is continuing to pursue this in court. i wont say he didnt do it, but im not going to pin "complete thug" on that. over a nearly 15 year span, i wouldnt qualify that as "complete thug" even if true unless attending "the U" was all you really needed. Edited December 12, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Roger Goodell is coming across as a douche. He talks out of both sides of his mouth. He cares about player safety, yet wanted to add more games? The guy will be getting replaced in the near future. Sucks because I want to root for a WNYer but he is someone that can't be trusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 and jonathan vilma has announced he still intends to pursue his defamation case. i think thats very interesting as continuing to force this into a court of law benefits him in almost no way now (besides reputation) but risks perjury if hes just completely lying about everything. Tags agrred with Goodell's findings regarding Vilma's bounty on Favre, didn't he? What will Vilma argue at this point?: "i put money up for the Favre bounty, but not the Warner bounty--I am therefore being defamed!"? This will reflect poorly on Goodell. He went too far this time. It has not been a good stretch for him, with this and the disaster of the replacement refs at the start of the season. Only the suspensions were vacated. All parties except Fujita were affrimed guilty by Tags. Vilma has every right to pursue this matter and extract whatever justice $$$$ he can for what the Commissioner put him and others through. The process in which his short career was placed in jeopardy was a sham. Vilma courageously called out Goodell and challenged him to show the evidence. RG was not forthright in doing so. Was it due to the fact that the evidence was flimsy and open to interpreation or was it due to the fact that he didn't want expose those who offered the evidence? The bottom line is that the person Goodell selected to review the evidence concluded that the punishment was unwarranted based on the evidence. In my view it is obvious why Goodell was willing to select someone to review this case. He clearly doesn't want an outside legal authority to review this case and process. What Goodell has come to recognize is that Vilma is no slouch who is going to allow a powerful figure in his profession to bully him. I congratulate Vilma for his courage. This saga is as much about the unbalanced process as it was about the bounty issue. I salute Vilma for his stance. Tagliabu reviewed the evidence and agreed with the league's conclusions about Vilma's actions. He disagreed with the penalty. Vilma's guilty. Putting up a bounty to take the other team's star QB is not courageous. can i ask what hes done to be named a complete thug? is it just the one accusation, or is there more to the assessment? he was a 4 year college player, 3 times leading his team in tackles. he graduated with a finance degree and was a 3 time academic all conference team award winner. hes considered one of the biggest students of the game. no arrests and now with his suspension vacated hes risking perjury just to clear his reputation, with nothing else to gain. hes a pillar in the community here. and ive several times seen him out and about being among the friendliest players around. other than this one accusation hes got a pretty impressive resume for the "not thug" category. just curious where the "complete thug" arguments are coming from. See above. Agree 100% The more that came out about this case, the more it seemed Goodell had nothing Wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 Tags agrred with Goodell's findings regarding Vilma's bounty on Favre, didn't he? What will Vilma argue at this point?: "i put money up for the Favre bounty, but not the Warner bounty--I am therefore being defamed!"? Only the suspensions were vacated. All parties except Fujita were affrimed guilty by Tags. Tagliabu reviewed the evidence and agreed with the league's conclusions about Vilma's actions. He disagreed with the penalty. Vilma's guilty. Putting up a bounty to take the other team's star QB is not courageous. See above. Wrong. i still think tags crafted his ruling very craftily given his law firm is representing the NFL in the defamation case. i maintain that i dont think its clear one way or the other whether this has actually happened. thats why im still chalking it up as an accusation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 Tags agrred with Goodell's findings regarding Vilma's bounty on Favre, didn't he? What will Vilma argue at this point?: "i put money up for the Favre bounty, but not the Warner bounty--I am therefore being defamed!"? Only the suspensions were vacated. All parties except Fujita were affrimed guilty by Tags. Tagliabu reviewed the evidence and agreed with the league's conclusions about Vilma's actions. He disagreed with the penalty. Vilma's guilty. Putting up a bounty to take the other team's star QB is not courageous. See above. Wrong. i still think tags crafted his ruling very craftily given his law firm is representing the NFL in the defamation case. i maintain that i dont think its clear one way or the other whether this has actually happened. thats why im still chalking it up as an accusation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 i still think tags crafted his ruling very craftily given his law firm is representing the NFL in the defamation case. i maintain that i dont think its clear one way or the other whether this has actually happened. thats why im still chalking it up as an accusation. Tags reviewed the coaches' statements. It seems to me that they claim Vilma did this. Those transcripts will render Vilma's claim without merit. he must prove that Goodell knew the claim was false and made it anyway. It's obvious now he can't prove this claim. The suit is dead. It's a lame continued effort for Vilma to "clear his name", when he's just dirty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 Tags reviewed the coaches' statements. It seems to me that they claim Vilma did this. Those transcripts will render Vilma's claim without merit. he must prove that Goodell knew the claim was false and made it anyway. It's obvious now he can't prove this claim. The suit is dead. It's a lame continued effort for Vilma to "clear his name", when he's just dirty. well, the nfl could release the interviews with cerullo and gregg from the appeals, but they are choosing not to. The two of them in their public statements have big contradictions. again, tags firm is representing the nfl and has repeatedly tried to get him to drop the suit (including trying to make them drop it to have someone else hear the case). sooo..... we will see. im not huge into conspiracies, but this whole thing has gotten so messy that i think its hard to say exactly what happened as an outsider. as this and taking some money in college are the only things hes ever been accused of, and he has not been a dirty player on the field (he in fact seems pretty well respected for how he handles himself around the league)..... i still stop short of the "complete thug" label given earlier and think its fair to leave this as "accusations." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 The coaches have copped to all of this. Tags believes Vilma bountied Favre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 (edited) Tags agrred with Goodell's findings regarding Vilma's bounty on Favre, didn't he? What will Vilma argue at this point?: "i put money up for the Favre bounty, but not the Warner bounty--I am therefore being defamed!"? Only the suspensions were vacated. All parties except Fujita were affrimed guilty by Tags. Tagliabu reviewed the evidence and agreed with the league's conclusions about Vilma's actions. He disagreed with the penalty. Vilma's guilty. Putting up a bounty to take the other team's star QB is not courageous. See above. Wrong. Tags was throwing RG a bone so he wouldn't look so bad. What is obvious about this fiasco that escalated into a legal challenge is that he is trying to make the issue go away. Do you think that RG wants his personal whimsical process to be exposed to the courts that would force him to open his tightly closed hand on the facts? Tags is giving RG a face saving ruling that allows him to be done with the issue that he manufactured into something bigger than it really was. This issue and "muscle" process was a sham. The purpose of having his personally selected arbitrator was to give the league's office a way to walk away from this issue without further challenge from an outside legal authority. Vilma is not totally accepting the league's let's move on offer that allows the commissioner to walk away with little to be accountable for. There are few angels in this tawdry affair. But there was a better and less onerous way to handle it. The bottom line is Vilma is excercising his rights in pursuing this matter. Roger was used to dealing with chumps. Vilma put up his dukes and said let's go at it. I salute him. Edited December 12, 2012 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 Tags was throwing RG a bone so he wouldn't look so bad. What is obvious about this fiasco that escalated into a legal challenge is that he is trying to make the issue go away. Do you think that RG wants his personal whimsical process to be exposed to the courts that would force him to open his tightly closed hand on the facts? Tags is giving RG a face saving ruling that allows him to be done with the issue that he manufactured into something bigger than it really was. This issue and "muscle" process was a sham. The purpose of having his personally selected arbitrator was to give the league's office a way to walk away from this issue without further challenge from an outside legal authority. Vilma is not totally accepting the league's let's move on offer that allows the commissioner to walk away with little to be accountable for. There are few angels in this tawdry affair. But there was a better and less onerous way to handle it. The bottom line is Vilma is excercising his rights in pursuing this matter. Roger was used to dealing with chumps. Vilma put up his dukes and said let's go at it. I salute him. i agree. at the start many argued they werent fighting it so it was proof they did it. then when they got the legal team together and fought it people complained they were whiners and should take it like a man. now the nfl says "we arent going to punish, but they did everything we said - and we are going to continue to keep the williams and cerullo testimony private (the only two that have agreed to the storyline, despite their stories not matching).... and somehow vilma still is the one that is in the hole with something to prove? i dont doubt that they were doing things in that locker room that were breaking rules, and that would sound AWFUL spoken at the dinner table with kids. I also havent seen actual proof that they went beyond the culture of just about every pro, and college locker room, if not even lower down the line. a punishment is deserved, but i still - even with player suspensions vacated- think they went waaaaaay to far with some of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 (edited) i agree. at the start many argued they werent fighting it so it was proof they did it. then when they got the legal team together and fought it people complained they were whiners and should take it like a man. now the nfl says "we arent going to punish, but they did everything we said - and we are going to continue to keep the williams and cerullo testimony private (the only two that have agreed to the storyline, despite their stories not matching).... and somehow vilma still is the one that is in the hole with something to prove? i dont doubt that they were doing things in that locker room that were breaking rules, and that would sound AWFUL spoken at the dinner table with kids. I also havent seen actual proof that they went beyond the culture of just about every pro, and college locker room, if not even lower down the line. a punishment is deserved, but i still - even with player suspensions vacated- think they went waaaaaay to far with some of this. The NFLPA signed on to an agreement that totally empowers the commissioner's office. In their view they felt that they had no choice because they needed to get back to work and back to getting paid. Having a system in which the commissioner not only is the charging official but he is also the officiating official is needless to say unbalanced. Then to compound the unbalanced situation he is the person who handles the appeals. Vilma's strategy was simple Let's get this issue examined by an outside authority (legal system). Goodell realized that if outside eyes reviewed the matter that his position would not be seen in a positive light. So he designated an outsider in Tags (who is really an NFL insider) to come up with a determination that allows him to close the door on this on going mess. What it comes down to is that Vilma went to RG and challenged him to show him what he had as evidence against him. RG was willing to show him a card or two but was unwilling to show him the full hand. Vilma then said the hell with you I'll get this issue to an outside authority who will force you to show your "full" hand. RG then got the legally and politically smart Tags to devise a solution that allows him to conclude this nettlesome and never ending matter with enough walk away dignity.. At least that is what he thought was going to happen. As I stated before I salute Vilma. The odds were against him but he kept punching. Edited December 12, 2012 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 (edited) im familiar with boosters (especially shapiro) giving money at miami. i wouldnt qualify that as "complete thug" im also not sure how well documented you think the 10k on favre. cerullo and williams gave totally different accounts of the entire playoff run (who had physical possession of the money, what games it happened at - just wiiiiide gaps between the two of them on the story), and 10+ players and coaches have gone under oath to say that it didnt happen. vilma, with nothing to gain but his reputation, and facing legal consequences if hes lying is continuing to pursue this in court. i wont say he didnt do it, but im not going to pin "complete thug" on that. over a nearly 15 year span, i wouldnt qualify that as "complete thug" even if true unless attending "the U" was all you really needed. My comment might be extreme, I'll admit. I will say, though, that I am fed up with the violence in the league (much of which is clearly intended to injure/hurt opponents), and the concussion stuff has really affected my views on the sport. My residual loyalty to the Bills is strong enough to keep me a fan, but I'm having a harder and harder time. The fact that Ed Reed's suspension was lifted after not one, not two, but three vicious hits in one game p8ssed me off as well. Separate issue, I know. Edited December 12, 2012 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Tags agreed with Goodell's findings but vacated the suspensions and fines because it is a management issue. That is lame. He threw Goodell under the bus. He gave twisted and winded bagged reasoning. He did not say the players were innocent but that only selected playeers were punished. With Tags it seems to be punish all or punish none. Gregg is a dirt bag, Vitt is a willing accomplice and Payton is shown to be arrogant and thought they were above the law. Goodell told the over a period of 3 years to get them to cease. The management did not stop the head coach who did not stop the defensive coordinator, , who did not stop the position coach and lastly did not stop the players. No one is innocent here and it is a black mark on the game. Other teams will learn and stop the macho crude of paying bonuses for knock out hits and the other silly stuff. Try this fellows...play the game hard, clean and with professionalism. The thug attitude that started with the Raiders in the 70s and the ESPN focus on vicious hits in game highlights starting back in the early 80s has harmed the players themselves to the point where we have a generation of men with scrambled eggs for brains. I wish this was over and we can get back to bellyaching about the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Tags did a masterful job of handling this case.....where he rightly takes issue with goodell was that when something that is percieved as wrong (bounties/money on the board incentives) that have permeated football for decades.....that goodell should have given the players a lengthy warning time period to end said behavior....before coming down with the penalty hammer...just like previous commisioners have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 My comment might be extreme, I'll admit. I will say, though, that I am fed up with the violence in the league (much of which is clearly intended to injure/hurt opponents), and the concussion stuff has really affected my views on the sport. My residual loyalty to the Bills is strong enough to keep me a fan, but I'm having a harder and harder time. The fact that Ed Reed's suspension was lifted after not one, not two, but three vicious hits in one game p8ssed me off as well. Separate issue, I know. he only had 3 fined hits over 2 seasons, not in one game. and the last one was far from vicious. it was clear hed get fined but it was very obviously just trying to separate the ball in a bam-bam kind of play that he happened to catch him high. could happen to any player. Unless ive completely missed something. i think your broad based anger is getting in the way of seeing situations related to the topic clearly. that and the fact that the 3 players youve called out by name all went to the U, which youve also called out a strong distaste for leads me to believe you are a bit agenda driven here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Tags was throwing RG a bone so he wouldn't look so bad. What is obvious about this fiasco that escalated into a legal challenge is that he is trying to make the issue go away. Do you think that RG wants his personal whimsical process to be exposed to the courts that would force him to open his tightly closed hand on the facts? There are few angels in this tawdry affair. But there was a better and less onerous way to handle it. The bottom line is Vilma is excercising his rights in pursuing this matter. Roger was used to dealing with chumps. Vilma put up his dukes and said let's go at it. I salute him. The "personal whimsical process" is exactly and explicitly what the NFLPA and the players bargained for in the CBA. This is what they wanted. It may be unbalaced, but they had no problems signing onto to this system. The NFLPA signed on to an agreement that totally empowers the commissioner's office. In their view they felt that they had no choice because they needed to get back to work and back to getting paid. Having a system in which the commissioner not only is the charging official but he is also the officiating official is needless to say unbalanced. Then to compound the unbalanced situation he is the person who handles the appeals. Vilma's strategy was simple Let's get this issue examined by an outside authority (legal system). Goodell realized that if outside eyes reviewed the matter that his position would not be seen in a positive light. So he designated an outsider in Tags (who is really an NFL insider) to come up with a determination that allows him to close the door on this on going mess. What it comes down to is that Vilma went to RG and challenged him to show him what he had as evidence against him. RG was willing to show him a card or two but was unwilling to show him the full hand. Vilma then said the hell with you I'll get this issue to an outside authority who will force you to show your "full" hand. RG then got the legally and politically smart Tags to devise a solution that allows him to conclude this nettlesome and never ending matter with enough walk away dignity.. At least that is what he thought was going to happen. As I stated before I salute Vilma. The odds were against him but he kept punching. Do you salute the system that Vilma was a part of where players were incentivized by eachother and the coaching staff to injure other players? Look at that NO/Vikes game. You don't think what they did to Favre affected the outcome of that game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 The "personal whimsical process" is exactly and explicitly what the NFLPA and the players bargained for in the CBA. This is what they wanted. It may be unbalaced, but they had no problems signing onto to this system. Do you salute the system that Vilma was a part of where players were incentivized by eachother and the coaching staff to injure other players? Look at that NO/Vikes game. You don't think what they did to Favre affected the outcome of that game? 1) you know i agree that the NFLPA has no one to blame but themselves for agreeing to the terms. it was an amateur style mistake really. embarassing on their leaderships part. 2) the legal hits i support 100% and many of those were legal. the illegal hits have penalties in the form of fines, flags, and suspensions. the sytem the saints had in place penalized illegal hits additionally even, and when bobby mccray picked up a flag in that game he was taken out and CHEWED out on the sidelines (i was at the game and saw it). lets not act like they went leaps and bounds beyond hard physical football - which is exactly what you want out of any defense. pressure the qb, rattle him and he will make mistakes. ESPECIALLY favre. every game plan for the last decade against favre read "hit favre early and often" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 (edited) The "personal whimsical process" is exactly and explicitly what the NFLPA and the players bargained for in the CBA. This is what they wanted. It may be unbalaced, but they had no problems signing onto to this system. The players had little leverage on this issue. They gave up a lot of authority to the commissioner's office to get a deal done. But although they agreed to this "unbalanced" relationship that doesn't necessarily mean that they agree with all the inconsistent and unfair decisions stemming from their weak position. In this case Vilma fought against the stronghold of the commissioner's office, and he won. The system was stacked against him, yet he still won. What does that say about RG,s judgment?. Do you salute the system that Vilma was a part of where players were incentivized by eachother and the coaching staff to injure other players? Look at that NO/Vikes game. You don't think what they did to Favre affected the outcome of that game? Let's not be naive here. Do you really believe that the behavior of the Saints' players was much different from how players on other teams behaved? Roger Goodell elevated this "tawdry" affair to a level that made it seem as if it rose to a historically bad level. Taglabue reviewed all the evidence. His conclusion is that the players who acted so egregiously bad should have no punishment. What the hell? The league fines players because their socks don't conform to the rules. But in this case that supposedly rose to a historical level the arbitrator determines that the players should suffer no sanctions.The Goodell judgment was a colossal sham. Tags was brought in to clean the mess. And he did. Edited December 12, 2012 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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