Juror#8 Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Every year, for the past 5 or so years that I've browsed this forum, an interesting phenomena happens at right around week 11. There are a contingent of folks (myself included) who advocate for a tanking of the season so that we can vastly improve our draft stock. Every year, there are just as many - if not more - voices who say: [they]"will always root for the Bills to win;" "let the draft positions fall where they may;" (and my personal favorite) "winning that insignificant game helps the team to learn how to win and promotes a culture of winning." There has been a lot of winning insiginificant games. It hasn't engendered an atmosphere of winning. Winning that insignificant Jaguars game in 2006 didn't help the team learn how to win, but what it did do was help us NOT get Patrick Willis. That feel good Miami game late in the 2010 season hasn't begotten any "winning spirit," but it was the difference between Cam Newton/Von Miller and Marcel Dareus. Last year, it felt really good to stomp Tebow in that insiginficant game after we had lost 200 games straight and we had been eliminated from the playoffs for what seemed like 2 months. Beating the Broncos didn't teach any "winning" lesson, but it did teach us that 8 and 9 is better than 10 and that we could have had Kuechly or Tannehill if we would have left well enough alone. EVEN THOUGH this is academic - cause none of us can affect how the team performs or what games they win or lose, I still want to know what value there is in winning insiginficant games? I think that I've proven why we still end up losing; can you tell me why we win? Edit: Please no "they would have messed the draft up anyway" stuff. You can't prove a negative. But what is factual is that AT LEAST those folks would have been options to choose from had our record been one game worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Because people pay for expensive tickets, parking, food, etc. in order to see an actual game. If one of the teams is trying to lose, and that includes "resting" starters in late season games, the game is a fraud and all monies should be returned to the customers who paid to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KollegeStudnet Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 To the OP, the majority does agree with you. I for one would finally like to see a franchise QB selected by this team... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills of Boston Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 The best thing, as simple as it sounds is that we don't control an ounce of it on the field. With that said, when we were 0-8 or whatever it was a few years back.. you bet your a$$ I was HEAVY QUOTES "rooting" for a loss. It doesn't make me less of a fan, its whats best for the team going forward. But a slippery slope because of all the energy and emotions the great fans of this team put forward 365 days a year (give or take a few Monday temper-tantrums). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 When each game you play is your resume, you tend to play hard regardless and not hope they draft the guy that is going to replace you. Not to mention if I ever found a team was tanking games ala the NBA, I would have a real problem watching this game and justifying the time I spend talking/watching football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swnybillsfan Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 i just can't bring myself to hope for the bills to lose out. those "insignifigant wins" are like little rays of sunshine in a season of darkness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 To the OP, the majority does agree with you. I for one would finally like to see a franchise QB selected by this team... I'd like to see them have options to take any of the top QB prospects as well. It's alarming that in the Nix risk-averse mindset how he stands pat and doesn't maneuver on draft day. So unless Nix changes his tune and is willing to move up, then we're left with picking from lesser talents. And that only works if you have talent evaluators who are versed in their trade. Right now, that doesn't seem to be the case with the 2010 and 2011 drafts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juror#8 Posted November 6, 2012 Author Share Posted November 6, 2012 (edited) When each game you play is your resume, you tend to play hard regardless and not hope they draft the guy that is going to replace you. Not to mention if I ever found a team was tanking games ala the NBA, I would have a real problem watching this game and justifying the time I spend talking/watching football. I'm more asking why people are so insistent that the Bills win every game, even insignificant ones that only hurt draft stock. Aren't you, in actuality, creating the monster that you desire so desperately to defeat by winning meaningless games. Isn't that withdrawing all your money from your 401K to pay a couple of late bills? Because people pay for expensive tickets, parking, food, etc. in order to see an actual game. If one of the teams is trying to lose, and that includes "resting" starters in late season games, the game is a fraud and all monies should be returned to the customers who paid to see it. Do you want to see a good game and a fortuitous win or a good team and a successful on-field product? Because with this team, the two are mutually exclusive. Edited November 6, 2012 by Juror#8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 (edited) To the OP, the majority does agree with you. I for one would finally like to see a franchise QB selected by this team... There is a better than small chance that any QB drafted in the first round is not going to be a "franchise QB"...so why wish the few wins away, for something that might happen three years from now? I generally like what the OP has to say in other threads...but I hate this attitude...everything is watered down these days...even our love of a good football game. We are becoming a wimpy sports nation too? The thing I love about sports, it is possibly, the ony avenue that I can ever be sure of myself.. wanting the Bills (along with the Sabres and Celtics) to win, no matter how putrid their season is, has become my compass...take that away, and it is just another thing not to really care about any more. Honeslty, I am not even sure how somebody can enjoy sports, while hoping their team will lose. Edited November 6, 2012 by Buftex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeHateMe Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 There is already no shot at the playoffs. They should lose out. Beating terrible teams has never given this team a sustained "culture of winning". I would have benched Fitz weeks ago for a spark. What are we really waiting for from him? There is no upside with the way things are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 I'm more asking why people are so insistent that the Bills win every game, even insignificant ones that only hurt draft stock. Aren't you, in actuality, creating the monster that you desire so desperately to defeat by winning meaningless games. Isn't that withdrawing all your money from your 401K to pay a couple of late bills? There are more than 3 good players in each draft. To think otherwise is ludicrous. They have 7 rounds for a reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 How lucky are the Colts. They get one of the best QBs to ever play the game for over a decade then suffer one craptacular season and get one of the best QB prospects to come out of college in a decade. If the above scenerio were guaranteed to happen to the Bills then yeah, I'd like to tank the season. The problem is there are no guarantees of anything and I'll never root for my team to lose. Granted, I'm not sure why it even matters as who I'm rooting for has no effect on the outcome of the game. Now, if you're suggesting that the players themselves actually should tank the season I'm going to guess you've never done anything competitive in your life. I'd want no players on my team who didn't try to win each and every game - talk about a bunch of losers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 (edited) How lucky are the Colts. They get one of the best QBs to ever play the game for over a decade then suffer one craptacular season and get one of the best QB prospects to come out of college in a decade. I don't believe it was "luck" for one second. It was calculated. They tanked it in spectacular fashion that one season so that they could go from P. Manning number one to P. Manning number 2. Edited November 7, 2012 by CodeMonkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 When each game you play is your resume, you tend to play hard regardless and not hope they draft the guy that is going to replace you. Not to mention if I ever found a team was tanking games ala the NBA, I would have a real problem watching this game and justifying the time I spend talking/watching football. The people of the city of Indianapolis want to reassure you that it's really no big deal and you will get over that "problem" real fast. However, there is no Andrew Luck coming out this season. Should they really tank for Barkley or some kid from Bama or Oklahoma? The beauty of it is that with a coaching staff of Gaileya nd Wanny--no one would ever suspect that the Bills were throwing the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 We draft poorly whether we draft first or 10th. Good players go all throughout the draft, and there is no lock pick. Believe it or not, the players are ALL available, and if theres someone you really really want, you can aggressively pursue the pick necessary to get them. Sure we didn't get Willis because he was picked before us, but Revis went right after us and we didnt pick him either. A couple years later we DID get Maybin when we couldve traded down or up. Losing on purpose is moot if you cant pick winners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Every year, for the past 5 or so years that I've browsed this forum, an interesting phenomena happens at right around week 11. There are a contingent of folks (myself included) who advocate for a tanking of the season so that we can vastly improve our draft stock. Every year, there are just as many - if not more - voices who say: [they]"will always root for the Bills to win;" "let the draft positions fall where they may;" (and my personal favorite) "winning that insignificant game helps the team to learn how to win and promotes a culture of winning." There has been a lot of winning insiginificant games. It hasn't engendered an atmosphere of winning. Winning that insignificant Jaguars game in 2006 didn't help the team learn how to win, but what it did do was help us NOT get Patrick Willis. That feel good Miami game late in the 2010 season hasn't begotten any "winning spirit," but it was the difference between Cam Newton/Von Miller and Marcel Dareus. Last year, it felt really good to stomp Tebow in that insiginficant game after we had lost 200 games straight and we had been eliminated from the playoffs for what seemed like 2 months. Beating the Broncos didn't teach any "winning" lesson, but it did teach us that 8 and 9 is better than 10 and that we could have had Kuechly or Tannehill if we would have left well enough alone. EVEN THOUGH this is academic - cause none of us can affect how the team performs or what games they win or lose, I still want to know what value there is in winning insiginficant games? I think that I've proven why we still end up losing; can you tell me why we win? Edit: Please no "they would have messed the draft up anyway" stuff. You can't prove a negative. But what is factual is that AT LEAST those folks would have been options to choose from had our record been one game worse. Good post. All too often, the best QB prospects have been off the board by the time the Bills' pick came up. Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, and Ben Roethlisberger had all been drafted before the Bills' first pick of the 2004 draft. As you point out, lack of good draft position has also cost us Andrew Luck, and a number of other good quarterbacks. It is virtually impossible to win a Super Bowl without a franchise quarterback. Yes, the Bills did have a few chances to get franchise QBs with the draft picks they did have. They could have taken Drew Brees in the 2001 draft, instead of Nate Clements. They could have taken Matt Schaub in the 3rd round of the 2004 draft. Had they not squandered their first round pick in the 2005 draft on the Losman trade, they could have drafted Aaron Rodgers. Nevertheless, I would say that of the franchise QBs drafted over the last ten or so years, more than half were off the board by the time the Bills picked. Some of the others--such as Schaub--were rejected by every team in the NFL at least twice, which means that not even the best talent evaluators in the league had realized what those guys were capable of. To make a long post short, the lower your draft position, the harder it becomes to build a good team. I'd like to see at least one occasion--and perhaps more than one--in which the Bills have the very first pick of the draft. The last time that happened, they chose Bruce Smith first overall. If you could sprinkle in a few elite players--especially at QB--this would become an entirely different team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Trooth Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 If the Bills had the mumber 1pick in the draft each of the last 5 drafts, the would not be significantly better tham they are now. The entire organization, beginning from the top down does not have winning in their list of the top 5 priorities. Look at the FO and staff in place. Non of these losers were on any team's A,B, or C list of potential hires. These guys are barely adequate caretakers for a franchise who's owner retired a long time ago. So, it does not matter what draft the position or who's drafted, once they enter the one bills drive corridor, they become cross contaminated with the same losing tradition and mentality just from being surrounded by losers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 You had me at "edifying discourse." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 OP: Well written and well thought out. Post more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 This is the classic logic vs emotion discussion. The same way Men (logic) and Women (emotional) have difficulty in communication rooting for our favorite team is the same thing. On the one hand logic dictates higher pick, better player, quickest way to turn it around. Emotion dictates I want them to try hard and win because I want to feel good. Several times across several sports has "tanking" been a good thing for the team. Colts - last year NBA - the entire reason for their lottery but an article also the sport where getting 1 high impact player makes more of a difference than any other This year Shanahan and Gailey have both admitted this a strategy that is employed. Gailey's you play and try to win the first 13 weeks then evaluate where you are quote and Shanahan's start the evaluation process quote are not good indicator's that winning is number one. In my honest opinion maybe it shouldn't be. Only if and when the team has been eliminated from the playoffs. If there is still a chance to sneak in then that chance must be taken, but if eliminated? You're playing for the best draft pick possible (or should be imo). However getting the player to tank is a horrible idea. Anytime you ask them to go out and lose it sends a terrible message as well as setting them up for injury. What needs to be done (and is) is put players on ir unnecessarily (sound familiar?), start underwhelming players (Brian Brohm in the season finale perhaps), or "vanilla" play calling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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