billsfan89 Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Its getting to a point where if the NFL doesn't get a deal done soon I am only going to watch the Bills game (On illegal stream non the less) and not watch any other NFL games. I love the Bills so I can't stop watching them but I can stop watching the other NFL games. It sickens me to think a league THAT IS DOING BETTER THAN EVER is pinching pennies when it comes to something as important as officiating games. The regular refs have proven their value meet them half way pay their pension and work out a compromise with the other sticking point of the replacement crews. I am sure if you cave financially they will give you a good deal on the other end. Yes the regular refs get a ton of calls wrong or questionable, BUT its nowhere near as bad as what we have now. The Replacement Refs don't know the procedure of the game and it results in other wise routine calls taking minutes to explain and enforce. In addition to that the refs don't have control over the players either which results in scrums and further delays. The refs are also making bad calls each and every week at a far greater pace than the old refs. It makes me sick how the league has let this happened, as a consumer I hate it and I will do what I can to not stand for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 This piece just went up on SI, think a quote can put it all in perspective: "...my colleague Peter King reported that the difference between the NFL and the refs' union is $3.3 million a year. Well, there are 256 regular season games. The NFL could have the real refs if it forked over an extra $12,891 per game. That is less than 20 cents for every paying customer." Read more: http://sportsillustr...l#ixzz27VcQhf4K It is not that simple (and is never is). The NFL as an organization went from a guaranteed pension scheme to a 401(k) plan for all their employees. They want the NFL referees (as NFL employees) to follow suit and the Refs are not budging..They want their guaranteed 30K whereas the 401(k) would restrict the contribution to 16K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offside Number 76 Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 The argument that even "regular" officials make mistakes totally misses the fact that the replacement officials have done a horrible job and that the product has been damaged. Except for those who can't really appreciate a good product (can't discern quality), many of these games have been rendered virtually unwatchable by the poor officiating. I have yet to see a well-officiated game by the replacements and most of the games have been heinously bad. Just because the regular officials make occasional mistakes doesn't justify the piss poor officiating that the NFL has chosen to implement. The reason that regular officials' mistakes are relevant is because one of the key issues in the dispute is how to deal with poor officiating by regular refs. As the OP and topic state, it isn't just about money. The NFL is trying to improve the on-field product long-term (and let's face it, the mistakes by the regulars are more than occasional), and in the short term, we're suffering through more mistakes than usual. It's a "it'll get worse before it gets better" situation. I'm fine with it as long as it eventually gets better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 26, 2012 Author Share Posted September 26, 2012 Umm KD the NYS pension fund is one of only a few in the country that IS well managed and fullt funded, by the way. I know because I am in it. But nevermind. I'm just part of the problem in Limbaugh Hannityland or whatever.... No, it's not: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-07/new-york-state-pension-71-billion-underfunded-empire-center-report-says.html http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/editorials/pension_fund_shortfall_yosJKPxmQlNEuR2JasgdUM http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/21/public-worker-pensions-government_n_1365716.html The argument that even "regular" officials make mistakes totally misses the fact that the replacement officials have done a horrible job and that the product has been damaged. Except for those who can't really appreciate a good product (can't discern quality), many of these games have been rendered virtually unwatchable by the poor officiating. I have yet to see a well-officiated game by the replacements and most of the games have been heinously bad. Just because the regular officials make occasional mistakes doesn't justify the piss poor officiating that the NFL has chosen to implement. Also, the NFL's belief that they can foist minor league officials upon the players, media, and paying fans in order to win a labor dispute is the height of arrogance. They really feel like they can take the fans for granted. The NFL makes money on we the fans but treat the fans to epically bad officiating which mars the product which we pay for. There was a time in this country when the people who ran baseball, boxing, and horse racing believed that they too, were omnipotent. The NFL should re-think what a victory in this labor dispute should look like. The owners could have approached this labor dispute in a much more considered way but they have opted to not bargain in good faith. While using questionable tactics in their dispute with the officials (changing the terms/issues), they are at the same time damaging the product, eroding goodwill among fans and media, irritating players, and allowing the media to feed on the dissent. Whether one believes that the NFL is right or wrong in this dispute, it would take a strange or dishonest person to hold the opinion that the NFL has handled this labor situation well. I have an eye for quality and I see the obvious difference between the real refs and their replacements. I also have an eye for shrill hyperbole and describing most of the games are heinous and unwatchable fits that descriptor. Perhaps the height of arrogance was is the ref union assuming that the NFL would simply agree to any demand they put on the table--that the NFL was bluffing and would never replace them with substitutes. I'm not claiming that the NFL has achieved a good outcome so far (obviously they haven't), but in a labor dispute they were faced with either accepting a position which they think is unacceptable or moving forward with the season as best they could (where else were they going to get more refs from?) with what they had on hand as negotiations continue. The "real refs" need to explain their resistance to the deal instead of sitting back and drinking in all of the unbelievable hysteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fischer Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 No doubt the new anti-ref push start on talk radio. Good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 There's a reason most other employers have already switched to defined contribution pensions (except for gov't where the unions can legally bribe corrupt politicians to keep the same system in place). Defined benefit pensions are unpredictable and unsustainable. WEO is right; the refs deserve as much blame as the league. So the league should be held to a perpetually bad deal because it currently represents a small % of revenue (which is meaningless -- the % of profits would be a relevant #). You don't build billion dollar league using that kind of rationale. Who put the gun to the NFLs head and forced them to make that deal? The NFL is trying to reneg on a deal they made. If it's a bad deal for the league who's fault is that? They can give new hires the new deal. You tell me the NFL can't ride out the old timers with $9B in revenues? I know you have a bug up your azz for unions but this is about living up to a deal they made. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 26, 2012 Author Share Posted September 26, 2012 Who put the gun to the NFLs head and forced them to make that deal? The NFL is trying to reneg on a deal they made. PTR No, they are not. That "deal" ended with the expiration of the last CBA. The are negotiating a new CBA. Wow. Anyway... ESPN chimes in: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-07/new-york-state-pension-71-billion-underfunded-empire-center-report-says.html The sticking point is not the salaries. It's the issue of additonal refs (essentially "replacements" of poorly functioning refs) and the pension. It is absolutley ridiculous for the part time employees to demand retirement benefits that full timers don't get. They are already getting pensions from their other jobs no doubt--now they want a guaranteed fixed benefit for their side job. Take about greedy. Why should the league agree to this--because the game will not go on without these great men? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnbillsbacker Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 (edited) It also has a lot to do with the league changing the pension system to a 401(k). The refs are losing 3 million in guaranteed pension money. They aren't cool with having their retirement funds up to the whim of the market. Hard to blame them. Do you realize that they are part time emplyees with other jobs? Do you know they make up to $180,000 for a job that requires them to ref one game a week and participate in a conference call once a week? Also worth noting, they are asking for $35,000 to added to their 401K every year. Most other people working in the NFL just lost their pensions, so the refs are not getting any sympathy from the teams. I realize they are better than the current officials, but this is mainly due to experience. I have no problem with the lockout. Edited September 26, 2012 by auburnbillsbacker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 The reason that regular officials' mistakes are relevant is because one of the key issues in the dispute is how to deal with poor officiating by regular refs. As the OP and topic state, it isn't just about money. The NFL is trying to improve the on-field product long-term (and let's face it, the mistakes by the regulars are more than occasional), and in the short term, we're suffering through more mistakes than usual. It's a "it'll get worse before it gets better" situation. I'm fine with it as long as it eventually gets better. then tell the nfl to finance extra crews, instead of having the guys rotated out being unpaid (unless the nflra takes their own funds to pay the spots). how would you like an unpaid bench at your job? This story of course not being huge, again, but its the kind of thing that wears on fan perception when they are frequent, and happen in a wide array of negotiations. true or not, significant or not, it hurts the image. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/26/john-lynch-says-nfl-duped-fox-into-going-easy-on-replacements/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrojanitor Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Do you realize that they are part time emplyees with other jobs? Do you know they make up to $180,000 for a job that requires them to ref one game a week and participate in a conference call once a week? Also worth noting, they are asking for $35,000 to added to their 401K every year. Most other people working in the NFL just lost their pensions, so the refs are not getting any sympathy from the teams. I realize they are better than the current officials, but this is mainly due to experience. I have no problem with the lockout. So what? The issue is the NFL cutting benefits when they are more profitable than ever. The money is nothing to the NFL and everything to their employees. The refs should be standing up to this kind of behavior. Loyalty used to be rewarded in this country and now we are expected to cave to the whims of the company. The NFL is completely out of line here and, as a result, the comsumer is getting an inferior product. As much as I enjoy the chaos these scab refs are causing, no thinking person (and/or non millionaire) should be supporting the actions of the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnbillsbacker Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 I respect your point of view, I just feel the refs are compensated very well by the nfl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 (edited) Who would have expected a Bills forum to turn into an argument about Socialism and Capitalism. I think anyone who doesn't think the owners have a right to draw a line in the compensation sand is just a little bit loco. Likewise, I think anyone who doesn't think the refs have a right to demand the moving of that line are also a little crazy. America is all about negotiated agreements. I don't know if "right" and "wrong" really apply here. Each side has a valid POV. Personally, though, I wish America was more of a meritocracy. Service men and women who risk their lives to defend our nation get paid $30,000 per year. Teachers who instruct and guide our children get paid $35,000. Police officers who protect us and our families get paid $40,000. But almost anyone associated with NFL gets rich. Players - who are simply talented entertainers - and the club owners all get millions. Officials who work maybe 20 weekends a year get six figure salaries. The whole thing is warped. As much as I love the Bills, sometimes I remind myself that it's just a game. So in the end I don't care which side gives in, I just want the "real" refs back. Edited September 26, 2012 by hondo in seattle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrojanitor Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 I respect your point of view, I just feel the refs are compensated very well by the nfl. Should also mention the NFL wants the officials to become full time employees while cutting their benefits and not compensating them for their wages from their other job. So they will work more, make less money and have their benefits cut all while their skillset has contributed to the NFL turning record profits. A skillset that is clearly not easily replaced, as we have all seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibuya Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 It's about pension mostly... And I support the real refs in this argument.. a $9 billion industry should have 0 issues providing this.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 26, 2012 Author Share Posted September 26, 2012 So what? The issue is the NFL cutting benefits when they are more profitable than ever. The money is nothing to the NFL and everything to their employees. The refs should be standing up to this kind of behavior. Loyalty used to be rewarded in this country and now we are expected to cave to the whims of the company. The NFL is completely out of line here and, as a result, the comsumer is getting an inferior product. As much as I enjoy the chaos these scab refs are causing, no thinking person (and/or non millionaire) should be supporting the actions of the NFL. Whims of the company? Do you even know issues in dispute? They are asking their part time employees (who at other "comapnies" would get no retirement funding) to accept what their full time employees---in fact, what nearly all privately emplyed Americans--have, which is a 401k type plan. My employer only offers me only this option, not a lifetime of guaranteed increases in benefits. Should I and all of my colleagues at the largest employer in this city demand a guaranteed benefits fund? These refs are fgtting 6 figures for a part time dream job, a hobby. They are are getting a second retirement fund (I bet almost all of them do not have a guaranteed benefit fund through their primary job), yet it's suddenly not enough. They are being offered annual salary increases and first class air travel to all games, yet that is suddenly not enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrojanitor Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Whims of the company? Do you even know issues in dispute? They are asking their part time employees (who at other "comapnies" would get no retirement funding) to accept what their full time employees---in fact, what nearly all privately emplyed Americans--have, which is a 401k type plan. My employer only offers me only this option, not a lifetime of guaranteed increases in benefits. Should I and all of my colleagues at the largest employer in this city demand a guaranteed benefits fund? These refs are fgtting 6 figures for a part time dream job, a hobby. They are are getting a second retirement fund (I bet almost all of them do not have a guaranteed benefit fund through their primary job), yet it's suddenly not enough. They are being offered annual salary increases and first class air travel to all games, yet that is suddenly not enough? I don't understand this logic. Most people get a raw deal when it comes to their retirement money so everyone should get a raw deal? NFL has more than enough to take care of their employees and is choosing not to. To what end? So they save what amounts to pocket change for them? And you may consider the officials are just indulging in a hobby, but I call them skilled labor. We have seen the difference in quality over and over again. The officials are being asked to turn full time with a salary increase that does not equal the amount they earn from their second job. They are expected to lose their guaranteed pension. All so the owners can literally save pennies. $10 for a beer and suddenly there is no money to compensate their employees? NFL expects us to pay big money to experience an elite product, but they won't pay to put that quality on the field? And no one should accept that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Jeeeeze .... These guys already get paid between $300 and $600 per hour for a part time job. I'll do that job for that pay with out a pension. By the way, I am 35 what is a pension? The masses of people that refuse to save their own money for their own retirement and would rather make that someone elses problem baffle me. If you don't like maket volitility there are investment options available for that in 401ks too. This baby boomer entitlement generation has completely bankrupted so many companies. Counties, states and countries it's absurd. Refinancing and taking cash out of their home to pay their $300/mo cable bill they must have, or their new car every five years they "deserve" along with their 3000 Sqft home they can't afford. Now it's time to bankrupt football? I say take that 3 million in entitlement denands and develop a state of the art training program that develops any 20/20 eyed, halfway football smart person off of the street into a capable ref. absolutely subject them to peer review of performance and fire those who don't perform. Let those whiners go find some other part time gig that pays $600/hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 (edited) Keep in mind, it's not simply about the refs. If they give it to the refs, then what do they say to the rest of their employees? These guys have a union...you don't. So...now what is the cost per game to give every full time NFL employee a pension? Then what about the team employees who work on Sundays part-time like the refs. Why don't they get a pension? NFL expects us to pay big money to experience an elite product, but they won't pay to put that quality on the field? And no one should accept that. You consider the regular refs "quality"? Edited September 26, 2012 by jeremy2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrojanitor Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Keep in mind, it's not simply about the refs. If they give it to the refs, then what do they say to the rest of their employees? These guys have a union...you don't. So...now what is the cost per game to give every full time NFL employee a pension? Then what about the team employees who work on Sundays part-time like the refs. Why don't they get a pension? You consider the regular refs "quality"? Valid point. They should. If the money is there the league should take care of its own. And yes, I do consider the regular refs quality. Have you not been watching the last couple weeks? They have control over the game and keep things running smoothly. There may be the odd error here and there, but things like that are going to happen every time you hire humans to do something. If we wanted perfection we'd all just pay to watch Madden simulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Locked-Out Refs Could Return Soon http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8427652/locked-nfl-referees-return-early-week-sources Let's hope so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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