It's not Just about Money: Why the fre ride for "Real refs&#3

[NoSaint]

 

 

Almost all Americans with retirement plans have them in 401k type plans. Even state employees "guarenteed benefits" are backed by large pension funds which are managed. Also, most corporations do not provide retirement benefits for part-time or perdiem workers or contractors (which the refs are).

 

First, they are part

 

 

Those changes, whenever introduced are reasonable, most fans would agree, I think. It's doubtful it's the first time the refs heard of them...

 

Star caps is viewed, if at all, as a couple of players trying to get around a drug test, American Needle means nothing to the public, bounty gate is players abusing eachother for money as far as most are concerned. The TW issue is the only one that sticks, but now is gone.

 

What America do you live in?

 

star caps is the nfl not letting players know that a supplement they took was tainted, and instead testing them for it - and getting publicly admonished by a federal judge for handling it deceitfully

 

bounty gate is the nfl messing up its processes so badly on what should be a slam dunk that they were again admonished publicly by a federal judge and the players are on the field still (many fans thinking twice on what happened)

 

the secret salary cap was dirty and atleast 4 fan bases are well aware even if most arent - and has the nfl in a federal court room AGAIN

 

time warner made people immensely angry cause they couldnt see games

 

the lockout last year was nothing pretty - again, secret salary cap, shady tv revenue deals, etc...

 

american needle most have no real idea about but its another time that someone could put on ESPN and hear "the nfl lost in federal court today...."

 

couple that with moving games overseas, selling PSLs and a list of other things.... they have done enough that i think fans are going to not immediately say "pssssh screw that guy claiming the nfl did them wrong, the nfl does the right thing even if its tough." if they ever had any semblance of that, its been immensely damaged in the last 2-3 years. that goodwill is quickly being lost, and if you ask random fans a large portion will say RG is all about money and not the quality of the game.

 

even if they are right in this case, its not going to be easy to look like the moral but firm leader in this. you only get to call "for the good of the game" and then have it blow up in your face so many times before people start to default to the opposite side even when they dont know all the facts

Edited September 25, 2012 by NoSaint

[bladiebla]

star caps is the nfl not letting players know that a supplement they took was tainted, and instead testing them for it - and getting admonished by a federal judge

 

bounty gate is the nfl messing up its processes so badly on what should be a slam dunk that they were again admonished publicly by a federal judge and the players are on the field still (players not skating innocently but any fan aware of the issues)

 

the secret salary cap was dirty and atleast 4 fan bases are well aware even if most arent - and has the nfl in a federal court room

 

time warner made people immensely angry cause they couldnt see games

 

the lockout last year was nothing pretty - again, secret salary cap, shady tv revenue deals, etc...

 

american needle most have no real idea about but its another time that someone could put on ESPN and hear "the nfl lost in federal court today...."

 

couple that with moving games overseas, selling PSLs and a list of other things.... they have done enough that i think fans are going to not immediately say "pssssh screw that guy claiming the nfl did them wrong, the nfl does the right thing even if its tough." if they ever had any semblance of that, its been immensely damaged in the last 2-3 years. that goodwill is quickly being lost, and if you ask random fans most will say RG is all about money and not the quality of the game.

 

even if they are right in this case, its not going to be easy to look like the moral but firm leader in this.

 

Add to that Goodell shutting down NFL Europe just to make a statement as new commisioner, whilst NFL Europe had shown a 20% increase in attendance that year alone.

 

IMHO Goodell is making a huge mess of things, Paul T. was a lot better.

[NoSaint]

 

 

Add to that Goodell shutting down NFL Europe just to make a statement as new commisioner, whilst NFL Europe had shown a 20% increase in attendance that year alone.

 

IMHO Goodell is making a huge mess of things, Paul T. was a lot better.

 

see, and thats not one that comes to my mind initially with this, but there are just SO MANY that everyone hits on atleast a couple things that could make them think twice when reading a press release from the commissioner - especially when they are hearing it would cost 20 cents per ticket sold to get this done and people are paying hundreds, if not thousands to go to games.

 

heck, even the defenseless receiver stuff has a huge groundswell against it (even though i and many others think its right). its turning into a situation where the last 3 years have given a lot of easy things to say the nfl corporate office has gone off the rails.

 

and yes, bringing those to the table 2-3 weeks before the opening kick and requiring that the NFLRA funds a pool of potential replacements for itself out of its own pocket is not good faith. its a PR ploy. if the nfl wants extra crews - invest in extra crews.

Edited September 25, 2012 by NoSaint

[billsfan714]

3.3 million a year in pension costs from an industry that generates over 9 billion a year in revenue. That would be like a doctor telling their spouse they couldnt afford a magazine subscription. How much is the difference between a million and a billion? Well stop and think about this.....a million seconds is 12 days, a billion seconds is 31 years.

 

My heart just bleeds for these billionaire owners.

[MattM]

Back to this...can't agree more. This is the reason why I'm on the league's side on this one.

 

And regular refs blow calls as bad as last night, too. Don Beebe went out of bounds and came back in. Tom Brady fumbled. "Just give it to 'em." Vinny Testaverde scoring a touchdown on the one-half yard line. Etc.

 

 

Yeah, those happened over about 20 years, yet the replacements managed to add one to the "completely blown" firmament in a mere three.weeks. Just sayin'......

 

star caps is the nfl not letting players know that a supplement they took was tainted, and instead testing them for it - and getting publicly admonished by a federal judge for handling it deceitfully

 

bounty gate is the nfl messing up its processes so badly on what should be a slam dunk that they were again admonished publicly by a federal judge and the players are on the field still (many fans thinking twice on what happened)

 

the secret salary cap was dirty and atleast 4 fan bases are well aware even if most arent - and has the nfl in a federal court room AGAIN

 

time warner made people immensely angry cause they couldnt see games

 

the lockout last year was nothing pretty - again, secret salary cap, shady tv revenue deals, etc...

 

american needle most have no real idea about but its another time that someone could put on ESPN and hear "the nfl lost in federal court today...."

 

couple that with moving games overseas, selling PSLs and a list of other things.... they have done enough that i think fans are going to not immediately say "pssssh screw that guy claiming the nfl did them wrong, the nfl does the right thing even if its tough." if they ever had any semblance of that, its been immensely damaged in the last 2-3 years. that goodwill is quickly being lost, and if you ask random fans a large portion will say RG is all about money and not the quality of the game.

 

even if they are right in this case, its not going to be easy to look like the moral but firm leader in this. you only get to call "for the good of the game" and then have it blow up in your face so many times before people start to default to the opposite side even when they dont know all the facts

 

Well said....

[Green Lightning]

 

You are clueless, but thanks for the predictable answer. So as long as the NFL can "afford it", they should be made to pay up, huh? Nice logic.

 

 

Hi Mr. Wilson, glad your feeling better. Now tell your billionaire buddies to stop disgracing our game.

[jumbalaya]

There's a reason most other employers have already switched to defined contribution pensions (except for gov't where the unions can legally bribe corrupt politicians to keep the same system in place). Defined benefit pensions are unpredictable and unsustainable.

 

WEO is right; the refs deserve as much blame as the league.

 

 

 

So the league should be held to a perpetually bad deal because it currently represents a small % of revenue (which is meaningless -- the % of profits would be a relevant #). You don't build billion dollar league using that kind of rationale.

We fans who care about the quality of the game, which has obviously been compromised, do feel that the league should make a deal and end the lockout. The league's position on this is essentially nickel and diming the real refs over chump change for a multi billion dollar business. It just seems wrong. I think most people can relate to the Officials position compared to the owners. We are not talking huge money here, but a matter of principle. Taking care of people that are a bigger part of the game than maybe we ever appreciated. Why shouldn't they keep their pension plan? I mean, it's the NFL. It's not like they are being pressured by low wage workers in the Chinese Football League, right? Just because most other American workers caved in to anti-unionism and had their benefits strongarmed away does not mean they should lay down and get a**raped like everyone else. Good for them for taking a stand. And as you can see from the difference with the replacements, officiating this game is too vague and ambiguous for stringent "grading". It's more about flow, and control, and letting the players decide it while maintaining a sense of order. It's as much about what you don't call as what you do. The regular officials were graded every week and these grades determine playoff assignments, etc. It's not like there was no system. We've seen what these games look like when flags are thrown on almost every play, and it hasn't been good. The current system was fine. Perfect, no. But this game is tto fast to get it right 100% of the time. The NFL just needs to quit trying to strongarm these guys over chump change. It's devaluing the quality of the product.

 

I think you have hit on an idea. Time to break this union's back and bring in cheap Chinese labor to do it. Bring refs from China and give them about a week's worth of training. They can't be any worse than the current replacements refs and the league will save even more money that they can split among the poor owners that take all the risk running the business. The owners are barely making ends meet, what with having to use stadiums built by union labor and paid by tax payers. Might as well replace the US labor they use behind the cameras and in the concession stands while they are at it. Just think they can maximize profits while holding down warm beer prices to $10 and $5 stale popcorn. Isn't it time for the NFL to do what most of corporate America has been doing for years, source jobs from overseas, dilute your product and blame the unions for standing on principle. Heck we can then blame the Chinese for the replays we disagree with, warm beer and our national debt.

Edited September 26, 2012 by jumbalaya

[Mr. WEO]

star caps is the nfl not letting players know that a supplement they took was tainted, and instead testing them for it - and getting publicly admonished by a federal judge for handling it deceitfully

 

bounty gate is the nfl messing up its processes so badly on what should be a slam dunk that they were again admonished publicly by a federal judge and the players are on the field still (many fans thinking twice on what happened)

 

the secret salary cap was dirty and atleast 4 fan bases are well aware even if most arent - and has the nfl in a federal court room AGAIN

 

time warner made people immensely angry cause they couldnt see games

 

the lockout last year was nothing pretty - again, secret salary cap, shady tv revenue deals, etc...

 

american needle most have no real idea about but its another time that someone could put on ESPN and hear "the nfl lost in federal court today...."

 

couple that with moving games overseas, selling PSLs and a list of other things.... they have done enough that i think fans are going to not immediately say "pssssh screw that guy claiming the nfl did them wrong, the nfl does the right thing even if its tough." if they ever had any semblance of that, its been immensely damaged in the last 2-3 years. that goodwill is quickly being lost, and if you ask random fans a large portion will say RG is all about money and not the quality of the game.

 

even if they are right in this case, its not going to be easy to look like the moral but firm leader in this. you only get to call "for the good of the game" and then have it blow up in your face so many times before people start to default to the opposite side even when they dont know all the facts

 

The StarCaps case was won by the NFL on every level. It was always my belief that these guys absolutely knew that it contained the steroid masking diuretic in question. You think the Williams loads were suddenly interested in taking...diet pills? The public wasn't fooled.

 

The American Needle case was a low risk (really nothing to lose) and possibly astronomical industry shaking payoff.

 

The bountygate I don't think is truly viewed by most fans as essentially only a screwup by the League. After Vilma is resuspended, public opinion will be completely against the players for being exposed as liars.

 

In the lockout, the fans seemed to side with the owners as it dragged on. After the complete violation of D. Smith and his players with the new CBA, the public did not weep.

 

I am with you completely with the secret salary cap and in fact this is the ONLY screw up which will truly harm the NFL. They are in trouble with this one legally.

 

The League is taking all of the heat on the ref issue, but the refs are at least as culpable.

[notwoz]

This column from the Washinton Post places the blame squarely in the lap of the NFL (i.e. the owners). If they wanted to lock out the refs, they should have made sure they had competent replacements at the ready. But then, the owners have proven time and time again (charging full price for pre-season games, personal seat licenses, and on and on) that they have no shame and no regard for the fans.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/replacement-refs-incompetence-solely-the-fault-of-the-league/2012/09/25/93f3c7a6-0729-11e2-afff-d6c7f20a83bf_story.html?hpid=z2

[Offside Number 76]

Yeah, those happened over about 20 years, yet the replacements managed to add one to the "completely blown" firmament in a mere three.weeks. Just sayin'......

 

 

Those four instances came to mind immediately, with no research, no google, etc. A result-changning bad call won't happen weekly, or annually, with replacement refs or with "real" ones. Did it happen last night? Sure. Does it happen almost every season? I'd bet. The "real" refs are hardly great. One of the things the league wants is to be able to substitute better refs for poorer ones. How is that bad?

[NoSaint]

 

 

Those four instances came to mind immediately, with no research, no google, etc. A result-changning bad call won't happen weekly, or annually, with replacement refs or with "real" ones. Did it happen last night? Sure. Does it happen almost every season? I'd bet. The "real" refs are hardly great. One of the things the league wants is to be able to substitute better refs for poorer ones. How is that bad?

 

The extra 12 yards on a gamewinning overtime drive by placing the ball at the wrong 44 yard line?

 

How many extra challenges for the 9ers?

 

 

These are happening so often it's hard to keep track of week to week, or game to game right now.

[Offside Number 76]

The extra 12 yards on a gamewinning overtime drive by placing the ball at the wrong 44 yard line?

 

How many extra challenges for the 9ers?

 

 

These are happening so often it's hard to keep track of week to week, or game to game right now.

 

The small stuff happens every week with the real ones. Steelers coin flip. Extra timeouts to teams. It happens EVERY week with the real ones. That's why the NFL is insisting--and should insist--upon replacement refs in the wings.

 

I couldn't care less about the money stuff.

 

Let me make this more clear: I'm ready for the refs, this weekend, to let Brady dribble the ball backwards for fifty yards and award him two free throws and a penalty shot, and give Welker an extra base on the overthrow. I get it. The replacements suck. But so do the regular refs. And if the sticking point is whether the regulars can be replaced, I'm with the league.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Offsides Number 76

[GG]

Let's not forget that the players contract was also stuck on benefits and about $10 million difference, so I can see why the owners are holding the line with the officials. Don't forget many owners lose cash in a given year.

[NoSaint]

 

 

The StarCaps case was won by the NFL on every level. It was always my belief that these guys absolutely knew that it contained the steroid masking diuretic in question. You think the Williams loads were suddenly interested in taking...diet pills? The public wasn't fooled.

 

The American Needle case was a low risk (really nothing to lose) and possibly astronomical industry shaking payoff.

 

The bountygate I don't think is truly viewed by most fans as essentially only a screwup by the League. After Vilma is resuspended, public opinion will be completely against the players for being exposed as liars.

 

In the lockout, the fans seemed to side with the owners as it dragged on. After the complete violation of D. Smith and his players with the new CBA, the public did not weep.

 

I am with you completely with the secret salary cap and in fact this is the ONLY screw up which will truly harm the NFL. They are in trouble with this one legally.

 

The League is taking all of the heat on the ref issue, but the refs are at least as culpable.

 

It's not about any single one- it's the huge volume and chipping away at public trust. The nfl has lost a little bit each time with the average fan (and big swings in some fan bases - we've been lucky not to be hit like other franchises fans).

 

What was the last decision that was made for the joy of football, a gift to the fans, or just generally an investment in their image and not cash, cash and more cash?

 

It's coming back to bite them as the image they have built is manipulative, and money hungry and not as stewards of the game. Those things aren't mutually exclusive but I think the average fan is falling towards jaded.

[Mr. WEO]

It's not about any single one- it's the huge volume and chipping away at public trust. The nfl has lost a little bit each time with the average fan (and big swings in some fan bases - we've been lucky not to be hit like other franchises fans).

 

What was the last decision that was made for the joy of football, a gift to the fans, or just generally an investment in their image and not cash, cash and more cash?

 

It's coming back to bite them as the image they have built is manipulative, and money hungry and not as stewards of the game. Those things aren't mutually exclusive but I think the average fan is falling towards jaded.

 

I think in times like these (exactly like the the lockout last year) fans focus on the greed/cash story. When everything returns to normal again with the 'real refs' back on the field, fans will no longer care about any of this. We saw this last season.

 

It has been well documented elsewhere that fans prefer to stay home for their football. They watch as many games as they want on Direct TV on their massive, ever less expensive and technologically superior flat screen TVs while participating in one or more fantasy leagues. Going to the game means little to the vast majority of a team's fans so ticket prices have become largely irrelevant. Nearly every fan with cable can see at least 5 games a week at home or at a bar with other fans.

 

An argument can be made that the league is, in general, delivering exactly what fans want--more so than ever in the past. (current difficulties excluded). The NFL, you and I all know that the public has a blissfully short memory.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Mr. WEO

[KD in CA]

Defined Pensions work fine provided they are properly funded and invested conservatively in highly vetted & regulated securities. Guaranteed benefits have been assaulted by the greed of Wall Street for over 30 years. The reason many are now underfunded is because they were sold junk securities that were rated triple a before 2007. These investments represent the greatest ponzi scheme ever fleeced on the american people in the history of the U.S.. These ratings agencies (Standard & Poor's, Moody's, Fitch) are the same idiots who lowered the U.S. governments credit rating, yet they were rubber stamping MBS's, SIVs and CDOs as triple a investments.

Yeah, they're working just fine for New York State, aren't they? No issues there. No impact at all from decades of rampant union greed.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

The argument that even "regular" officials make mistakes totally misses the fact that the replacement officials have done a horrible job and that the product has been damaged. Except for those who can't really appreciate a good product (can't discern quality), many of these games have been rendered virtually unwatchable by the poor officiating. I have yet to see a well-officiated game by the replacements and most of the games have been heinously bad.

 

Just because the regular officials make occasional mistakes doesn't justify the piss poor officiating that the NFL has chosen to implement.

 

Also, the NFL's belief that they can foist minor league officials upon the players, media, and paying fans in order to win a labor dispute is the height of arrogance. They really feel like they can take the fans for granted. The NFL makes money on we the fans but treat the fans to epically bad officiating which mars the product which we pay for.

 

There was a time in this country when the people who ran baseball, boxing, and horse racing believed that they too, were omnipotent. The NFL should re-think what a victory in this labor dispute should look like.

 

The owners could have approached this labor dispute in a much more considered way but they have opted to not bargain in good faith. While using questionable tactics in their dispute with the officials (changing the terms/issues), they are at the same time damaging the product, eroding goodwill among fans and media, irritating players, and allowing the media to feed on the dissent.

 

Whether one believes that the NFL is right or wrong in this dispute, it would take a strange or dishonest person to hold the opinion that the NFL has handled this labor situation well.

[BillsWatch]

It is not black and white as some try to make it. And it is silly to complain about things like PSLs, cost of beer and pre-season game costs while at same time claiming all those funds as reason for referees to deserve more as part time employees then full time employees get.

 

All of the owners are not billionaires and exaggeration is a tool of those dishonest on argument. If you use a tool like exaggeration or illegal cameras it is because you see a benefit to using it.

[Rob's House]

I haven't formed a strong opinion b/c the devil is in the details (actually the devil is in my pants ) & I'm light on those, but it seems most, including everyone at ESPN take sides based on who has deeper pockets. It's awfully simple minded to say the league should capitulate to any deal demanded by refs that represents a relatively low % of profits. They should only cave if the deal is fair.

 

I'd rather have them back but I'm enjoying this season as much or more than any I can remember.

[Boatdrinks]

Yeah, they're working just fine for New York State, aren't they? No issues there. No impact at all from decades of rampant union greed.

 

Umm KD the NYS pension fund is one of only a few in the country that IS well managed and fullt funded, by the way. I know because I am in it. But nevermind. I'm just part of the problem in Limbaugh Hannityland or whatever....