It's not Just about Money: Why the fre ride for "Real refs&#3

[Mr. WEO]

According to Mort last night the sticking points between the refs and the League aren't about money. The refs are refusing the the league's wish of additional crews and they also don' t want o be evaluated/graded in the manner that the NFL is proposing.

 

Why is everyone crying for "the League" to make a deal and end the lockout, when they are making proposals that many fans would find reasonable (wider pool of refs to train to get experience--and replace the bad ones; gradign/accountability/performance reviews that are more stringent than currently exist).

 

If the the "real refs" would step up and agree to these and other proposals (no more fixed benefit retirement plans, part time workers...), this would end tomorrow.

[Astrojanitor]

It also has a lot to do with the league changing the pension system to a 401(k). The refs are losing 3 million in guaranteed pension money. They aren't cool with having their retirement funds up to the whim of the market. Hard to blame them.

[NoSaint]

According to Mort last night the sticking points between the refs and the League aren't about money. The refs are refusing the the league's wish of additional crews and they also don' t want o be evaluated/graded in the manner that the NFL is proposing.

 

Why is everyone crying for "the League" to make a deal and end the lockout, when they are making proposals that many fans would find reasonable (wider pool of refs to train to get experience--and replace the bad ones; gradign/accountability/performance reviews that are more stringent than currently exist).

 

If the the "real refs" would step up and agree to these and other proposals (no more fixed benefit retirement plans, part time workers...), this would end tomorrow.

 

The league introduced those changes like 2 weeks before the opening kickoffs this year. A solid year into negotiations. Those extra panels would also be unpaid, unless the nflra funded them through the working officials salaries (unless that's changed since August).

 

Plus, the nfl has burned a lot of trust and good will the last 2-3 years. It's hard to get the benefit of the doubt when you have star caps, American needle, time Warner, secret salary cap suits, a federal judge admonishing them for bounty gate, the "secret stash" during the player lockout, and now this -- just off hand.

[Astrojanitor]

This piece just went up on SI, think a quote can put it all in perspective:

 

"...my colleague Peter King reported that the difference between the NFL and the refs' union is $3.3 million a year. Well, there are 256 regular season games. The NFL could have the real refs if it forked over an extra $12,891 per game.

That is less than 20 cents for every paying customer."

 

 

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/michael_rosenberg/09/25/refs-controversy/index.html#ixzz27VcQhf4K

[All_Pro_Bills]

It also has a lot to do with the league changing the pension system to a 401(k). The refs are losing 3 million in guaranteed pension money. They aren't cool with having their retirement funds up to the whim of the market. Hard to blame them.

I read somewhere yesterday that the sticking point is that issue which amounts to .11% of annual league revenue. Compared to the potential damage to the league and the product from these prime-time gaffs that seems like a small price to pay. That's $93k per team.

[billsfan89]

93k per team is peanuts to end this mess, just cave the NFL refs have proven they are worth the money and they can't be replaced so easily. The replacements are not only making more bad calls (Lets face it the reg refs blow them too) but they don't know the procedure of the game which is resulting in a slow down of the games and bad calls (Not knowing how to enforce penalties, and mismanaging time outs).

 

I am sure the NFL could get the refs to back down from one or two demands if they meet a lot of their other demands. So I don't care if the refs have some weird demands that aren't about money, if you cave on the money demands you can get them to meet you half way on some other demands.

[KD in CA]

It also has a lot to do with the league changing the pension system to a 401(k). The refs are losing 3 million in guaranteed pension money. They aren't cool with having their retirement funds up to the whim of the market. Hard to blame them.

There's a reason most other employers have already switched to defined contribution pensions (except for gov't where the unions can legally bribe corrupt politicians to keep the same system in place). Defined benefit pensions are unpredictable and unsustainable.

 

WEO is right; the refs deserve as much blame as the league.

 

 

I read somewhere yesterday that the sticking point is that issue which amounts to .11% of annual league revenue. Compared to the potential damage to the league and the product from these prime-time gaffs that seems like a small price to pay. That's $93k per team.

So the league should be held to a perpetually bad deal because it currently represents a small % of revenue (which is meaningless -- the % of profits would be a relevant #). You don't build billion dollar league using that kind of rationale.

Edited September 25, 2012 by KD in CT

[Boatdrinks]

Why is everyone crying for "the League" to make a deal and end the lockout, when they are making proposals that many fans would find reasonable (wider pool of refs to train to get experience--and replace the bad ones; gradign/accountability/performance reviews that are more stringent than currently exist).

 

If the the "real refs" would step up and agree to these and other proposals (no more fixed benefit retirement plans, part time workers...), this would end tomorrow.

We fans who care about the quality of the game, which has obviously been compromised, do feel that the league should make a deal and end the lockout. The league's position on this is essentially nickel and diming the real refs over chump change for a multi billion dollar business. It just seems wrong. I think most people can relate to the Officials position compared to the owners. We are not talking huge money here, but a matter of principle. Taking care of people that are a bigger part of the game than maybe we ever appreciated. Why shouldn't they keep their pension plan? I mean, it's the NFL. It's not like they are being pressured by low wage workers in the Chinese Football League, right? Just because most other American workers caved in to anti-unionism and had their benefits strongarmed away does not mean they should lay down and get a**raped like everyone else. Good for them for taking a stand. And as you can see from the difference with the replacements, officiating this game is too vague and ambiguous for stringent "grading". It's more about flow, and control, and letting the players decide it while maintaining a sense of order. It's as much about what you don't call as what you do. The regular officials were graded every week and these grades determine playoff assignments, etc. It's not like there was no system. We've seen what these games look like when flags are thrown on almost every play, and it hasn't been good. The current system was fine. Perfect, no. But this game is tto fast to get it right 100% of the time. The NFL just needs to quit trying to strongarm these guys over chump change. It's devaluing the quality of the product.

[TheBows]

IMO this labor dispute is a microcosm of the presidential election and political rhetoric

 

It's organized labor vs big corporation.

 

And the media is pushing their angle to make it a talking point

 

Just my .02 cents

 

The media is the reason we can't go 30 seconds in a game without a flag being thrown or being baffled by a missed call on blatent pass interference? The ref's blow. They are making the game almost unwatchable. Too much is being called and just as much is being missed (if that makes any sense). No one cares, not really, about the refs. We care about the game being enjoyable to watch again. That is all I am seeing in the media.

[GG]

Let's not forget they're part time employees who are asking for full-time benefits.

 

NFL messed up by locking them out. Just let them work under the expired deal. If refs didn't like it they could go on strike, but the league would be in a better negotiating and public relations position.

[Boatdrinks]

There's a reason most other employers have already switched to defined contribution pensions (except for gov't where the unions can legally bribe corrupt politicians to keep the same system in place). Defined benefit pensions are unpredictable and unsustainable.

 

WEO is right; the refs deserve as much blame as the league.

 

 

You are flat out wrong. This is the NFL, not Wal Mart. They can absolutely afford it. The "reason" most other employers have done away with defined benefit pensions is because they are beholden to stockholders and have chosen to give that money to executives who now are paid many hundreds of times more than the average worker instead of say, tens of times more. But the NFL has no stockholders (save maybe the Packers situation) and has revenues that increase every year with no end in sight. Crying poor just isn't a resonable argument to informed fans who understand the situation. They can afford it, it's been past practice, the Officials seem correct here.

 

Let's not forget they're part time employees who are asking for full-time benefits.

 

NFL messed up by locking them out. Just let them work under the expired deal. If refs didn't like it they could go on strike, but the league would be in a better negotiating and public relations position.

 

The league may have been better off doing this way, (the games would be better) but I believe they are going to become full time employees because the NFL wants them to be. That part of the deal has already been agreed upon.

[KD in CA]

You are flat out wrong. This is the NFL, not Wal Mart. They can absolutely afford it. The "reason" most other employers have done away with defined benefit pensions is because they are beholden to stockholders and have chosen to give that money to executives who now are paid many hundreds of times more than the average worker instead of say, tens of times more. But the NFL has no stockholders (save maybe the Packers situation) and has revenues that increase every year with no end in sight. Crying poor just isn't a resonable argument to informed fans who understand the situation. They can afford it, it's been past practice, the Officials seem correct here.

You are clueless, but thanks for the predictable answer. So as long as the NFL can "afford it", they should be made to pay up, huh? Nice logic.

 

I've seen what they've done to businesses that suddenly find themselves in decline yet, oops, they still owe millions of additional dollars every year in a defined benefit plan they can't get out of. Why don't you explain to us how define benefit pensions are working withing the confines of the New York state budget?

[Astrojanitor]

We fans who care about the quality of the game, which has obviously been compromised, do feel that the league should make a deal and end the lockout. The league's position on this is essentially nickel and diming the real refs over chump change for a multi billion dollar business. It just seems wrong. I think most people can relate to the Officials position compared to the owners. We are not talking huge money here, but a matter of principle. Taking care of people that are a bigger part of the game than maybe we ever appreciated. Why shouldn't they keep their pension plan? I mean, it's the NFL. It's not like they are being pressured by low wage workers in the Chinese Football League, right? Just because most other American workers caved in to anti-unionism and had their benefits strongarmed away does not mean they should lay down and get a**raped like everyone else. Good for them for taking a stand. And as you can see from the difference with the replacements, officiating this game is too vague and ambiguous for stringent "grading". It's more about flow, and control, and letting the players decide it while maintaining a sense of order. It's as much about what you don't call as what you do. The regular officials were graded every week and these grades determine playoff assignments, etc. It's not like there was no system. We've seen what these games look like when flags are thrown on almost every play, and it hasn't been good. The current system was fine. Perfect, no. But this game is tto fast to get it right 100% of the time. The NFL just needs to quit trying to strongarm these guys over chump change. It's devaluing the quality of the product.

 

hot damn that's funny.

 

I agree with everything you say here. There are a shocking amount of people who immediately side with the multi-billion dollar corporation over the employee. Always blows my mind.

 

 

Chinese Football League--good stuff.

[BiggieScooby]

There's a reason most other employers have already switched to defined contribution pensions (except for gov't where the unions can legally bribe corrupt politicians to keep the same system in place). Defined benefit pensions are unpredictable and unsustainable.

 

WEO is right; the refs deserve as much blame as the league.

 

 

 

 

So the leauge should be held to a perpetually bad deal because it currently represents a small % of revenue (which is meaningless -- the % of profits would be a relevant #). You don't build billion dollar league using that kind of rationale.

 

Defined Pensions work fine provided they are properly funded and invested conservatively in highly vetted & regulated securities. Guaranteed benefits have been assaulted by the greed of Wall Street for over 30 years. The reason many are now underfunded is because they were sold junk securities that were rated triple a before 2007. These investments represent the greatest ponzi scheme ever fleeced on the american people in the history of the U.S.. These ratings agencies (Standard & Poor's, Moody's, Fitch) are the same idiots who lowered the U.S. governments credit rating, yet they were rubber stamping MBS's, SIVs and CDOs as triple a investments.

Edited September 25, 2012 by BiggieScooby

[All_Pro_Bills]

So the league should be held to a perpetually bad deal because it currently represents a small % of revenue (which is meaningless -- the % of profits would be a relevant #). You don't build billion dollar league using that kind of rationale.

You don't build a billion dollar business by bullying your employees. The current situation is an unmitigated disaster. The quality and integrity of the product is now being questioned. At first by a few but now by almost all segments of the sport, coaches, players, fans, the media. Even people that don't watch football know the replacement ref's screwed the pooch last night. I'll wager its even on the evening network news shows tonight and they rarely cover sports.

 

And today the NFL issued a statement that the 'got it right'. They've got to be kidding! It shows an arrogance and contempt for integrity that is beyond words.

 

And why is it a bad deal? Perhaps you have more insight into the process here but IMO that amount of money is totally insignificant to the league. And if its profits not revenue you argue then I hope each owner is happy with an extra $93k in his pocket while watching game after game of player scrums after the whistle, indecision, inconsistency, with coaches looking to intimidate and abuse the officials. The fact is the owners will make that up 100 times over in the next TV contract so to me its got more to do with their belief they can just push anybody around that they care to rather than a quesiton of funding.

[Offside Number 76]

According to Mort last night the sticking points between the refs and the League aren't about money. The refs are refusing the the league's wish of additional crews and they also don' t want o be evaluated/graded in the manner that the NFL is proposing.

 

Why is everyone crying for "the League" to make a deal and end the lockout, when they are making proposals that many fans would find reasonable (wider pool of refs to train to get experience--and replace the bad ones; gradign/accountability/performance reviews that are more stringent than currently exist).

 

If the the "real refs" would step up and agree to these and other proposals (no more fixed benefit retirement plans, part time workers...), this would end tomorrow.

 

Back to this...can't agree more. This is the reason why I'm on the league's side on this one.

 

And regular refs blow calls as bad as last night, too. Don Beebe went out of bounds and came back in. Tom Brady fumbled. "Just give it to 'em." Vinny Testaverde scoring a touchdown on the one-half yard line. Etc.

[Spiderweb]

We fans who care about the quality of the game, which has obviously been compromised, do feel that the league should make a deal and end the lockout. The league's position on this is essentially nickel and diming the real refs over chump change for a multi billion dollar business. It just seems wrong. I think most people can relate to the Officials position compared to the owners. We are not talking huge money here, but a matter of principle. Taking care of people that are a bigger part of the game than maybe we ever appreciated. Why shouldn't they keep their pension plan? I mean, it's the NFL. It's not like they are being pressured by low wage workers in the Chinese Football League, right? Just because most other American workers caved in to anti-unionism and had their benefits strongarmed away does not mean they should lay down and get a**raped like everyone else. Good for them for taking a stand. And as you can see from the difference with the replacements, officiating this game is too vague and ambiguous for stringent "grading". It's more about flow, and control, and letting the players decide it while maintaining a sense of order. It's as much about what you don't call as what you do. The regular officials were graded every week and these grades determine playoff assignments, etc. It's not like there was no system. We've seen what these games look like when flags are thrown on almost every play, and it hasn't been good. The current system was fine. Perfect, no. But this game is tto fast to get it right 100% of the time. The NFL just needs to quit trying to strongarm these guys over chump change. It's devaluing the quality of the product.

..... Jeez I'm so tired of sad, miguided, uninformed, and blantantly ignorant remrks about unions bribing government officials. The problem I have isn't that this hasn't happened, it the free pass some give big business and the rich who have infinitely larger sums of cash going to politicians. I agee with the official refs. Why should they too get raped, pillaged and plundered like the vast majority of the people in this country?

[NoSaint]

again - the real issue is that the league has been caught in public lies repeatedly the last few years. as it stands, its not about labor and unions - its that people dont take the nfl at face value.

[Mr. WEO]

It also has a lot to do with the league changing the pension system to a 401(k). The refs are losing 3 million in guaranteed pension money. They aren't cool with having their retirement funds up to the whim of the market. Hard to blame them.

 

Almost all Americans with retirement plans have them in 401k type plans. Even state employees "guarenteed benefits" are backed by large pension funds which are managed. Also, most corporations do not provide retirement benefits for part-time or perdiem workers or contractors (which the refs are).

 

First, they are part

The league introduced those changes like 2 weeks before the opening kickoffs this year. A solid year into negotiations. Those extra panels would also be unpaid, unless the nflra funded them through the working officials salaries (unless that's changed since August).

 

Plus, the nfl has burned a lot of trust and good will the last 2-3 years. It's hard to get the benefit of the doubt when you have star caps, American needle, time Warner, secret salary cap suits, a federal judge admonishing them for bounty gate, the "secret stash" during the player lockout, and now this -- just off hand.

 

Those changes, whenever introduced are reasonable, most fans would agree, I think. It's doubtful it's the first time the refs heard of them...

 

Star caps is viewed, if at all, as a couple of players trying to get around a drug test, American Needle means nothing to the public, bounty gate is players abusing eachother for money as far as most are concerned. The TW issue is the only one that sticks, but now is gone.

 

Just because most other American workers caved in to anti-unionism and had their benefits strongarmed away does not mean they should lay down and get a**raped like everyone else.

 

What America do you live in?

[The Avenger]

Let's not forget they're part time employees who are asking for full-time benefits.

 

NFL messed up by locking them out. Just let them work under the expired deal. If refs didn't like it they could go on strike, but the league would be in a better negotiating and public relations position.

 

Right. And the reduced pension funding is something the league has already imposed on some of its full time employees, making it hard to make an exception for 120 part timers.

 

In the end, I think ego factors heavily into this dispute. On the one side you have the owners, who are a group of powerful billionaires and they are going up against 120 part time employees. Powerful billionaires hate to lose or feel like someone has gotten over on them, especially part time employees. If it weren't for this dynamic I'm not sure it would have ever gotten to this.