Mr. Wilson And Jerry Jones

[Mr. WEO]

The basic point is that "desire to win" and a quarter won't even get you a cup of coffee. I find it funny that more than a few people laud Jones for his "desire to win" in the face of spending massive amounts of money, yet still failing. The problem with him is his ego is the problem since he thinks he can do it himself. Wilson's problem is finding the right men to run things (and yes, I know he fired Polian. Let it rest). There's a difference. Same goes for Snyder.

"Still failing"? The previous 5 seasons have been winning records and include 3 playoff appearances. If that's "failue in your book, how would you decribe the Bills last 5 years?

 

His QB is not a high priced FA, nor are his best RB and WR. That's a talented team, no question. His coach sucks, plain and simple. Jones can't bring himself to pull the trigger--hardly the imperial owner you are painting him as.

 

There is a difference: Jones is trying to maintain a winning team (he has a huge nut to cover every month now) whereas Ralph isn't even bothering to try.

 

He's very old, he's in the HOF and he correctly assumes the locals are going to forever pad his pockets.

[T master]

And who has been in the playoffs more than any other team over the last decade ?? The Pats & Colts they don't keep huge contract players to long they deal them to develop new talent

(Seymor , Moss , Vrable -- James , Harrison) If i would want to watch a team and take notes it sure ain't gonna be Jerra -- his freakin ego (& head) is as big as his bank roll .

 

Although it does take money to build a good team Dallas & Washington are not the prototypical teams to watch when taking notes that's for sure !! If you want to see how to get more bang for your buck watch Indy & N.E. -- If you want to see how to blow money & still have sub par teams watch Jerra & Snyder !!!

[Mr. WEO]

And who has been in the playoffs more than any other team over the last decade ?? The Pats & Colts they don't keep huge contract players to long they deal them to develop new talent

(Seymor , Moss , Vrable -- James , Harrison) If i would want to watch a team and take notes it sure ain't gonna be Jerra -- his freakin ego (& head) is as big as his bank roll .

 

Although it does take money to build a good team Dallas & Washington are not the prototypical teams to watch when taking notes that's for sure !! If you want to see how to get more bang for your buck watch Indy & N.E. -- If you want to see how to blow money & still have sub par teams watch Jerra & Snyder !!!

I won't argue that the Pats and the Colts are better than Dallas. But Ralph isn't taking any notes. He is getting the most bang for his buck right now, why would he emulate any other program?

 

By the way, the Colts "kept huge contract players" James and Harrison for a total of 20 years!

[filthymcnasty08]

Add the Ravens and Steelers to the list of teams to model yourself after.

 

I would kill for either F.O.

[JohnC]

Jones is welcome to draft Mallet. I've heard more bad about the kid than good.

 

PTR

 

What are you referring to? Not smart enough? Not mature enough? Bad dude? Just very curious.

Edited November 2, 2010 by JohnC

[Spiderweb]

As usual you missed the basic point. Ralph Wilson is a failure in his own right. He doesn't need to be compared to anyone else because he has his own inimitable way of failing.

 

Most people would agree that the Cowboys are underachieving, to put it mildly.. Most people would also agree that the Bills are not underachieving. They are simply a bad team.

 

It always begins as "underachieving" until (by then it's usually too late) it's realized the team is bad. The Cowboys simply are not the quality team many thought they were. As bad as the Bills? probably not, but even then they might not be that far apart in many ways. Another case of a meddling idiot owner, poor HC, and so on down throughout the team.

[JohnC]

Wilson's problem is finding the right men to run things (and yes, I know he fired Polian. Let it rest). There's a difference. Same goes for Snyder.

 

There is a very simple explanation as to why it is so difficult for him to hire the right people to run his failed organization. He is the one doing the hiring. When you don't know what you are doing your decisions are most likely not to work out.

[stony]

What are you referring to? Not smart enough? Not mature enough? Bad dude? Just very curious.

 

Yes, yes, and yes. No, no, and no. Just depends on who you ask.

 

In 2009, he was arrested at 3:47am for public intoxication as a 20yr old. Some people will say the starting QB at an SEC school should lead by example, others (myself included) will say "and your point is, he's in college."

 

Some question his accuracy on simple, short throws. He's admitted that he needs to develop more touch on passes underneath because defenses have keyed on taking the vertical passing game away from him. Some will say this reminds them of JP Losman who could throw it a mile, but not hit a guy on a simple slant pass. Others will say this is something good coaching can easily correct.

 

For a good laugh, check out his mug shot though. Funny stuff.

[JohnC]

It always begins as "underachieving" until (by then it's usually too late) it's realized the team is bad. The Cowboys simply are not the quality team many thought they were. As bad as the Bills? probably not, but even then they might not be that far apart in many ways. Another case of a meddling idiot owner, poor HC, and so on down throughout the team.

 

There are very few people who would say that the Cowboys lack talent. There is no doubt that they are a flawed team. Their OL is mediocre at best. What is apparent to most people who watch them is the lack of discipline on the team. Wade Phillips is not the type of coach who commands discipline.

 

With respect to the talent level the Bills are very distant from the Cowboys. Almost every NFL analyst had the Bills ranked near the bottom before the season even started. Their prognostications easily came to fruition. The Cowboys do have a nucleoius of good players to quickly turn it around. The Bills are far from having a critical mass of good players to turn it around in the forseeable future.

 

I am not giving the owner of the Cowboys a free pass. He, more than anyone else, is accountable for the chaotic state of affairs in Texas. What I do know for sure is that he is more driven to succeed and turn things around than the passive owner of the terrible Bills.

[Doc]

"Still failing"? The previous 5 seasons have been winning records and include 3 playoff appearances. If that's "failue in your book, how would you decribe the Bills last 5 years?

 

His QB is not a high priced FA, nor are his best RB and WR. That's a talented team, no question. His coach sucks, plain and simple. Jones can't bring himself to pull the trigger--hardly the imperial owner you are painting him as.

 

There is a difference: Jones is trying to maintain a winning team (he has a huge nut to cover every month now) whereas Ralph isn't even bothering to try.

 

He's very old, he's in the HOF and he correctly assumes the locals are going to forever pad his pockets.

With the money the Cowboys make and spend, not to mention the exposure, market and other advantages they have (eg. no state income taxes), AND the fact that his 2006 CBA was set-up to favor big market teams, winning 1 playoff game over the past 14 years is failing. And a lot has to do with the fact that HE runs the team, because he thinks he can run it, since he got lucky with the Herschel Walker deal and won a SB without JJ. At least Wilson admitted his mistake with Jauron and fired him mid-season, whereas Jones' ego can't bring himself to admit he made a mistake, as is the case with trading for and keeping Roy Williams.

 

The Bills have failed for a decade, there is no arguing that. But to say it's because the owner doesn't "want to win" or because he's intentionally trying to screw the fans is ludicrous. We've gone over this ad nauseum. All it eventually comes down to is that he fired Polian and/or hasn't spent big money on a GM or coach. Yet here we have Jones who does, and still struggles. Moverover the Bills tried to get a big name this past off-season and were rebuffed.

 

As for Jones' "nut," his investment in the team ($93M) was easily paid-off within the first decade of owning it. And no one told him he had to build a $1B stadium, $325M (at least) of which was paid for by the taxpayers, while a good chunk of the rest is being paid for by fans in the form of the highest PSL's, tickets, concessions, and parking in the league, as well as corporations (yet still no naming rights sold. Hmmm). You make it sound like he's footing the bill for everything and keeping ticket prices low, or even affordable for the average fan while Ralph is doing the opposite.

[JohnC]

Yes, yes, and yes. No, no, and no. Just depends on who you ask.

 

That's helpful. LOL

 

In 2009, he was arrested at 3:47am for public intoxication as a 20yr old. Some people will say the starting QB at an SEC school should lead by example, others (myself included) will say "and your point is, he's in college."

 

I agree with you. I'm not going to condemn a college kid for acting like a college kid. If he doesn't learn from his mistake then that is another matter.

 

Some question his accuracy on simple, short throws. He's admitted that he needs to develop more touch on passes underneath because defenses have keyed on taking the vertical passing game away from him. Some will say this reminds them of JP Losman who could throw it a mile, but not hit a guy on a simple slant pass. Others will say this is something good coaching can easily correct.

 

Do you trust our scouting department to make the right call? Supposedly, Nix's specialty is the SEC. I hope his connections can get some sound advice on him.

Edited November 2, 2010 by JohnC

[John from Riverside]

There is none. Bill is the only board member clinging to this asinine conspiracy theory.

 

In reality, Spiller was taken by Nix and co because he was the best player available, and a serious offensive threat/playmaker.

 

Bill I just dont understand why it is so hard to accept that Spiller was brought in because he was the right choice.

 

What were the things that Nix said.....he said this team needed playmakers and that he was looking for guys that actually did it in College (I am sure that was a knock against Maybin)

 

So he basically went out and did just what he said. Once Spiller starts getting more carries this is pick is gonna look a lot better.

 

To me the big difference between the two owners is one is not afraid to make moves and the other one is.

[stony]

That's helpful. LOL

 

 

 

I agree with you. I'm not going to condemn a college kid for acting like a college kid. If he doesn't learn from his mistake then that is another matter.

 

 

 

Do you trust our scouting department to make the right call? Supposedly, Nix's specialty is the SEC. I hope his connections can get some sound advice on him.

 

I do for the most part. We're one draft into the Nix regime, and despite those who wish to bash this past draft through 8 weeks, I think talent evaluation should be one of his strengths given his past time as a scout. Personally, I'm in the draft Luck if available and if not, go heavy on D. I just don't think Mallet has the mobility to survive in Buffalo, but, with that said, I don't hate on Mallet like some based on heresy.

[Doc]

Bill I just dont understand why it is so hard to accept that Spiller was brought in because he was the right choice.

 

What were the things that Nix said.....he said this team needed playmakers and that he was looking for guys that actually did it in College (I am sure that was a knock against Maybin)

 

So he basically went out and did just what he said. Once Spiller starts getting more carries this is pick is gonna look a lot better.

 

To me the big difference between the two owners is one is not afraid to make moves and the other one is.

Fezmid made a good point that if Spiller was a Ralph pick, he'd be playing a LOT more, and probably made the starter going into the season.

[JohnC]

I do for the most part. We're one draft into the Nix regime, and despite those who wish to bash this past draft through 8 weeks, I think talent evaluation should be one of his strengths given his past time as a scout. Personally, I'm in the draft Luck if available and if not, go heavy on D. I just don't think Mallet has the mobility to survive in Buffalo, but, with that said, I don't hate on Mallet like some based on heresy.

 

If you want to hear an interesting discussion of the qb prospects go to today's WGR55 audio fault for the Simon/Gabriel interview. Gabriel believes that Luck is the best prospect by far. His views on Mallet are more cautionary. He also discusses Locker and Newton. Very interesting discussion.

[SanJosePete]

As usual you missed the basic point. Ralph Wilson is a failure in his own right. He doesn't need to be compared to anyone else because he has his own inimitable way of failing.

 

Most people would agree that the Cowboys are underachieving, to put it mildly.. Most people would also agree that the Bills are not underachieving. They are simply a bad team.

 

Funny to see the season get to the point where we are asking ourselves the following questions?

Would you rather be like the Bills and at least be competitive with an 0-6 record?

Would you rather be like the Cowboys and underachieving with much better talent and an 0-7 record?

 

Wilson's real legacy will be what happens to the team after he kicks the bucket.

[Mr. WEO]

With the money the Cowboys make and spend, not to mention the exposure, market and other advantages they have (eg. no state income taxes), AND the fact that his 2006 CBA was set-up to favor big market teams, winning 1 playoff game over the past 14 years is failing. And a lot has to do with the fact that HE runs the team, because he thinks he can run it, since he got lucky with the Herschel Walker deal and won a SB without JJ. At least Wilson admitted his mistake with Jauron and fired him mid-season, whereas Jones' ego can't bring himself to admit he made a mistake, as is the case with trading for and keeping Roy Williams.

 

The Bills have failed for a decade, there is no arguing that. But to say it's because the owner doesn't "want to win" or because he's intentionally trying to screw the fans is ludicrous. We've gone over this ad nauseum. All it eventually comes down to is that he fired Polian and/or hasn't spent big money on a GM or coach. Yet here we have Jones who does, and still struggles. Moverover the Bills tried to get a big name this past off-season and were rebuffed.

 

As for Jones' "nut," his investment in the team ($93M) was easily paid-off within the first decade of owning it. And no one told him he had to build a $1B stadium, $325M (at least) of which was paid for by the taxpayers, while a good chunk of the rest is being paid for by fans in the form of the highest PSL's, tickets, concessions, and parking in the league, as well as corporations (yet still no naming rights sold. Hmmm). You make it sound like he's footing the bill for everything and keeping ticket prices low, or even affordable for the average fan while Ralph is doing the opposite.

The 2006 CBA favored the "big market teams"? By making them cough up 200 million for the low revenue teams? By allowing the low budget teams NOT to spend 59.5% o their revenue on players if they didn't feel like it? Look at all the "big market" SB winners since that CBA!

 

This isn't MLB, where the Yankees can simply overwhelm a player with money and own him. You obviously imagine that it is. And with JJ running the Cowboys, they have won 3 SBs.

 

No, he didn't have to build that ridiculous stadium, but I doubt, facing a 650 million dollar debt, it eases his mind to know that it's not 1 billion. He still has to pay the money back. The PSL's haven't paid the debt. The interest alone must be staggering. SO he feels the pressure to produce a winner on the field and, generally, despite your imagination, he has done so.

 

Ralph has no such worries--in fact, he could probably give away 20% of the gate and still make dollar 1. Nearly all of his costs are covered by the free money the League hands him each year from the TV contracts negotiated by his colleagues on his behalf (hint, the TV execs who shell out that money don't include Bills viewership in the calculations).

 

Jones can't bring himself to admit he made a mistake on a coach?? Well, what about his much ballyhooed (here) mea culpa regarding Chan Gailey? And Ralph doesn't get credit for firing Jauron "mid-season". You are being very disngenuous (and I know why) here. You are leaving out the part where, against all sanity, Ralph renewed DJ's contract the prior season after a 5-0 start when you and Ralph (that's why!) were convinced Jauron would be so expensive by that season's end that he had to be resigned immediately. It was a bald-faced money saving move, pure and simple. It was ridiculed uniformly (except by you) by the end of the season. It was so poor of a decision that the FO refused to admit they had done so until the end of the season.

 

 

Why do you think the Bills were rebuffed? Is it because of...the state income tax? hahahahaha.

[gobillsinytown]

As much as I hate to say it, but the Cowboys don't compare to the Bills....Jones expects to win and goes after it. As can be seen in their pursuit of quality personnel. The results may not show it this year, but at least they've been in the conversation. Wilson says he wants to win then allows 10+ years of questionable decisions to materialize.

 

What converstation? ESPN? Why should that matter? If Wade Phillips and Jason Garrett are considered "quality personell", they've got a long way to go.

I'm not defending Wilson, because with the team's track record for the last 10 years, it can't be defended. But neither can anyone defend Jones' record. which has been less than stellar. And to make things even more interesting, Jerry now has a huge bank note to pay off. The cost of building their new stadium was over 1 billion, with a significant amount of that financed. So the days of unlimited budgets for the Cowboys organization are over.

[JohnC]

Wilson's real legacy will be what happens to the team after he kicks the bucket.

 

That's because a large percentage of his half century of ownership should be forgotten.

[Big Turk]

Jerry Jones went to meet with Ralph and he said:

 

"You know Mr. Wilson...you and I, we're not so different after all..." just like Dr. Evil did with Austin Powers...hahahaha

[Bill from NYC]

Fezmid made a good point that if Spiller was a Ralph pick, he'd be playing a LOT more, and probably made the starter going into the season.

 

Doc, are you really going to tell me that running up to the podium and selecting Spiller in a minute or so was sound thinking in terms of building a football team?

The team is stuggling on both sides of the LOS, let alone the horrendous LB corps. They gave NO consideration to a tradedown whatsoever, and took a player who looked like, now AND then, a part time player.

Are you also suggesting that Ralph's comments about "adding excitement" had nothing to do with ticket sales/money in his pocket? RB was one of the only strong positions on this weak team when entering the draft.

I readily admit that Nix did try to address the defense after round 1, and I applaud this.

 

My original post was an attempt to try to point out the irony of a smug Jones, who now has similar problems to Mr. Wilson due to his inteference with football professionals.

As for the Spiller selection, you can defend it as you wish my old friend, but certainly you must admit that in terms of building a strong, suitable football team for WNY, it is getting harder to do so as time passes.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Bill from NYC

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

 

5)tRalph almost certainly brought us Spiller

 

 

Link?

 

Otherwise this would just be another baseless, undocumented rant.

[Bill from NYC]

Link?

 

Otherwise this would just be another baseless, undocumented rant.

 

Joe, it's great to hear from you.

[Doc]

The 2006 CBA favored the "big market teams"? By making them cough up 200 million for the low revenue teams? By allowing the low budget teams NOT to spend 59.5% o their revenue on players if they didn't feel like it? Look at all the "big market" SB winners since that CBA!

 

This isn't MLB, where the Yankees can simply overwhelm a player with money and own him. You obviously imagine that it is. And with JJ running the Cowboys, they have won 3 SBs.

 

No, he didn't have to build that ridiculous stadium, but I doubt, facing a 650 million dollar debt, it eases his mind to know that it's not 1 billion. He still has to pay the money back. The PSL's haven't paid the debt. The interest alone must be staggering. SO he feels the pressure to produce a winner on the field and, generally, despite your imagination, he has done so.

 

Ralph has no such worries--in fact, he could probably give away 20% of the gate and still make dollar 1. Nearly all of his costs are covered by the free money the League hands him each year from the TV contracts negotiated by his colleagues on his behalf (hint, the TV execs who shell out that money don't include Bills viewership in the calculations).

 

Jones can't bring himself to admit he made a mistake on a coach?? Well, what about his much ballyhooed (here) mea culpa regarding Chan Gailey? And Ralph doesn't get credit for firing Jauron "mid-season". You are being very disngenuous (and I know why) here. You are leaving out the part where, against all sanity, Ralph renewed DJ's contract the prior season after a 5-0 start when you and Ralph (that's why!) were convinced Jauron would be so expensive by that season's end that he had to be resigned immediately. It was a bald-faced money saving move, pure and simple. It was ridiculed uniformly (except by you) by the end of the season. It was so poor of a decision that the FO refused to admit they had done so until the end of the season.

 

 

Why do you think the Bills were rebuffed? Is it because of...the state income tax? hahahahaha.

Did you ever wonder why the owners who crafted the CBA made the cap based on total revenue and not a higher percentage of shared revenue? And why they caved and gave the players that large a percentage increase anyway? It's obvious (to most). And you unwittingly proved my point about spending money on GM's, coaches, and players not guaranteeing anything.

 

The Cowboys won 3 SB's because of Mike Lynn's stupidity. Not because of Jerruh, or even JJ. The problem is, he thinks it was because of him.

 

The stadium is Jerruh's own fault. He gets no sympathy for his debts resulting from it and if he takes a bath on it, good. He was raking in the dough in Texas Stadium and his team having paid for itself may times over (he had no debt either). But he got greedy. The taxpayers and fans will end-up paying for about 1/3 of the stadium, but Jones will own it. The $80M Ralph demanded back in 1998 and the $2.9M a year for improvements (which Ralph has waived a few times in the past) pale in comparison to what Jerruh got, and Ralph doesn't/won't own the stadium. And ticket prices are still the lowest in the NFL, not the highest.

 

Ralph gets no credit for firing a guy mid-season, a year after giving him a large extension for a 5-0 start? And Jerruh is less of a fool in keeping Phillips when it's been obvious for years that he's not a good HC? Wow.

 

I've already mentioned the numerous reasons why the Bills were rebuffed. Nice try though.

[JohnC]

Ralph gets no credit for firing a guy mid-season, a year after giving him a large extension for a 5-0 start?

 

The dumbass owner prematurely gave DJ an extension. To make matters worse DJ was given more authority in personnel. Why should the clown owner be given credit for firing a HC who should not have been hired in the first place? To add to the insanity giving Dick more authority in the operation resulted in such cartoonish decisions as taking Whitner ahead of Ngta and drafting Maybin instead of a boatload of other better prospects.

 

The goofy owner has a habit of making decisions which set the franchise back instead of moving it forward. The Levy hire was beyond being inexplicable. It was outright odd. Maybe not quite as odd as replacing the fleeing Levy with a marketing guru. The smartest thing this very befuddled owner can do is nothing.

[Doc]

Doc, are you really going to tell me that running up to the podium and selecting Spiller in a minute or so was sound thinking in terms of building a football team?

The team is stuggling on both sides of the LOS, let alone the horrendous LB corps. They gave NO consideration to a tradedown whatsoever, and took a player who looked like, now AND then, a part time player.

Are you also suggesting that Ralph's comments about "adding excitement" had nothing to do with ticket sales/money in his pocket? RB was one of the only strong positions on this weak team when entering the draft.

I readily admit that Nix did try to address the defense after round 1, and I applaud this.

 

My original post was an attempt to try to point out the irony of a smug Jones, who now has similar problems to Mr. Wilson due to his inteference with football professionals.

As for the Spiller selection, you can defend it as you wish my old friend, but certainly you must admit that in terms of building a strong, suitable football team for WNY, it is getting harder to do so as time passes.

I believe they felt that Spiller was the BPA, after the QB, OT's, and DT's they wanted were taken. Why reach for a need, which has gotten then in trouble in the past?

 

As for trading down, there were 7 picks worth of time for someone to come calling for the pick. I doubt anyone did.

 

And again, if Spiller was Ralph's pick, he'd be starting, not a bit player.

[BuffaloBill]

As much as I hate to say it, but the Cowboys don't compare to the Bills....Jones

expects to win and goes after it. As can be seen in their pursuit of quality personnel. The results may not show it this year, but at least they've been in the conversation. Wilson says he wants to win then allows 10+ years of questionable decisions to materialize.

 

I could not disagree more. Jones has driven the cowgirls into the ground. He is an owner worse than Ralph.

[Orton's Arm]

OK.

 

I think that this team needs to be stronger on the lines and at LB, and to win football games. Levy/Jauron destroyed this team with their horrid drafts. One poster (don't remember who) said that one could give an 18 year old kid 3 draft magazines and he would have done better than these two incompetent men. I FULLY agree.

 

Ralph is a businessman. You don't see me bashing him much on this board because I respect him, and thank him for keeping the team in WNY. But, he should never be confused with a football man.

 

You are right in that I offer no concrete proof that he was heavily involved in that pick but again, Mr. Wilson is a money man. Flashy players sell seats, beer, jerseys, etc. Making millions is the expertise of Mr. Wilson. He isn't an expert at building a good football team and got rid of those who were.

I fully agree with the bolded text--especially as it relates to the Levy era. In fact, I would think it's self-evident that a kid with a draft guide would have done a better job of drafting than Levy did. Levy's only two success stories--including both the draft and free agent signings--were Poz and Kyle Williams, with an emphasis on Williams. Give that 18 year old kid two drafts with which to work, some money to spend on free agents, and sign him up to receive the reports of National Scouting Service, and if he was reasonably intelligent and motivated he'd probably do better than just that.

 

But either things improved in 2008, or else the mistakes made that year haven't yet become fully evident. (Or some combination of the two.) Potential success stories from that year include the following players:

• McKelvin
  
• Corner
  
• Demetrius Bell
  
• Steve Johnson

Of those four guys, probably only two or three will turn into long-term answers at starting positions. That's a pace of about 2.5 answers per year, as opposed to the one answer per year we saw under Levy.

[Mr. WEO]

Did you ever wonder why the owners who crafted the CBA made the cap based on total revenue and not a higher percentage of shared revenue? And why they caved and gave the players that large a percentage increase anyway? It's obvious (to most). And you unwittingly proved my point about spending money on GM's, coaches, and players not guaranteeing anything.

 

The Cowboys won 3 SB's because of Mike Lynn's stupidity. Not because of Jerruh, or even JJ. The problem is, he thinks it was because of him.

 

The stadium is Jerruh's own fault. He gets no sympathy for his debts resulting from it and if he takes a bath on it, good. He was raking in the dough in Texas Stadium and his team having paid for itself may times over (he had no debt either). But he got greedy. The taxpayers and fans will end-up paying for about 1/3 of the stadium, but Jones will own it. The $80M Ralph demanded back in 1998 and the $2.9M a year for improvements (which Ralph has waived a few times in the past) pale in comparison to what Jerruh got, and Ralph doesn't/won't own the stadium. And ticket prices are still the lowest in the NFL, not the highest.

 

Ralph gets no credit for firing a guy mid-season, a year after giving him a large extension for a 5-0 start? And Jerruh is less of a fool in keeping Phillips when it's been obvious for years that he's not a good HC? Wow.

 

I've already mentioned the numerous reasons why the Bills were rebuffed. Nice try though.

We've been over this. Very few players saw a "raise" in their salaries after the new CBA raised the cap--you have already conceded this. Why you are going back to your previous position is bizarre. The "big market owners" pushed for the increased cap so they could outspend all the "small market teams"?? Really? Is that what's "obvious"?

 

Let's see, in 2006, the top spending team was...the Colts. Only one "big market" team in the top 5 actually--the rest are small markets: Minny, Cincy, Baltimore. 2007?: NO, Buff, KC--all tiny towns in the top 5. 2008?: Oakland, Cleveland, NO, Minny. So it seems that the "small market teams were a lot more happy to spend the extra money than the big bad "big market teams". In fact NO was in the top 5 in spending for the past 3 years and they went form bag on the heads to SB champion in that time. Don't tell me what's "obvious"---you further your misunderstanding of the CBA every time you post on it.

 

No one has sympathy for Jones and no one thinks that simply spending money will bring success in the NFL. You are pretty good at shooting down arguments no one is making, though. The point is that Jones is too involved in his quest for team success. Ralph is not in such a quest at all.

 

Jones seems to fill that stadium despite the high price. Ralph will struggle to fill his stadium in December despite the price of his tickets. Go figure.

[Doc]

We've been over this. Very few players saw a "raise" in their salaries after the new CBA raised the cap--you have already conceded this. Why you are going back to your previous position is bizarre. The "big market owners" pushed for the increased cap so they could outspend all the "small market teams"?? Really? Is that what's "obvious"?

 

Let's see, in 2006, the top spending team was...the Colts. Only one "big market" team in the top 5 actually--the rest are small markets: Minny, Cincy, Baltimore. 2007?: NO, Buff, KC--all tiny towns in the top 5. 2008?: Oakland, Cleveland, NO, Minny. So it seems that the "small market teams were a lot more happy to spend the extra money than the big bad "big market teams". In fact NO was in the top 5 in spending for the past 3 years and they went form bag on the heads to SB champion in that time. Don't tell me what's "obvious"---you further your misunderstanding of the CBA every time you post on it.

 

No one has sympathy for Jones and no one thinks that simply spending money will bring success in the NFL. You are pretty good at shooting down arguments no one is making, though. The point is that Jones is too involved in his quest for team success. Ralph is not in such a quest at all.

 

Jones seems to fill that stadium despite the high price. Ralph will struggle to fill his stadium in December despite the price of his tickets. Go figure.

The only thing I "conceded" was your "every team didn't spend up to the new (59.5% of total revenues) cap limit." Which was moot because they never had before either (when it was 54.3% of total revenues). What was important was the (~5%) percentage increase, and I showed you the facts and figures to prove it, not tossing out some baseless statement like "it was going to rise anyway." Apparently we didn't go over this enough.

 

You're best off not talking about the CBA, doc. It's abundantly clear you have zero understanding of it, as evidenced by the above and your "it was a good deal...until the situation changed." You are a party of one in thinking that that CBA was a good deal at any time. And talking about just the top-5 teams is a nice misdirection by you. I never claimed that the biggest markets would occupy every slot at the top of the payroll list. Talk about shooting down arguments that don't exist.

 

As for Jones' alleged "desire," it's little more than talk. His motivation for having a winning team has more to do with making himself more money and covering his nuts than anything else. I mean, it's not like he broke the bank for his current GM and coach, or that he's going to give the fans their money back for the Cowboys' dismal performance this year. The fact that the Bills are usually in the top-10 in payroll should tell you that Ralph cares about winning, since if he didn't, the Bills would annually have one of the lowest payrolls. Do you think that if Jones had been the owner of the Bills, they'd have stayed in Buffalo this long?

 

You mean it's harder to fill an open-air stadium in December than a climate-controlled dome? Did you know water is wet? They sold-out this season LAST year, so that means little. But I'd be surprised if everyone shows up to see a 1-15 team.

[Mr. WEO]

The only thing I "conceded" was your "every team didn't spend up to the new (59.5% of total revenues) cap limit." Which was moot because they never had before either (when it was 54.3% of total revenues). What was important was the (~5%) percentage increase, and I showed you the facts and figures to prove it, not tossing out some baseless statement like "it was going to rise anyway." Apparently we didn't go over this enough.

 

You're best off not talking about the CBA, doc. It's abundantly clear you have zero understanding of it, as evidenced by the above and your "it was a good deal...until the situation changed." You are a party of one in thinking that that CBA was a good deal at any time. And talking about just the top-5 teams is a nice misdirection by you. I never claimed that the biggest markets would occupy every slot at the top of the payroll list. Talk about shooting down arguments that don't exist.

 

As for Jones' alleged "desire," it's little more than talk. His motivation for having a winning team has more to do with making himself more money and covering his nuts than anything else. I mean, it's not like he broke the bank for his current GM and coach, or that he's going to give the fans their money back for the Cowboys' dismal performance this year. The fact that the Bills are usually in the top-10 in payroll should tell you that Ralph cares about winning, since if he didn't, the Bills would annually have one of the lowest payrolls. Do you think that if Jones had been the owner of the Bills, they'd have stayed in Buffalo this long?

 

You mean it's harder to fill an open-air stadium in December than a climate-controlled dome? Did you know water is wet? They sold-out this season LAST year, so that means little. But I'd be surprised if everyone shows up to see a 1-15 team.

You said:

AND the fact that his 2006 CBA was set-up to favor big market teams,

 

 

It seemed to me that you meant that it favored them because they could afford to, and would, spend more money than the small market teams. I've shown you this is not true. Small market teams jumped at the chance to spend more. (I thought listing the top 5 was a good was to show the obvious false nature of your argument---it's clear you have a problem with this). The big market teams' costs actually went up af the CBA even if they didn't spend more on players because they were on the hook for a 5 fold increase in the welfare they would have to pay out to low revenue teams. Anyway, I'm with the 30 billionairish types who thought the CBA was good business (and the cash register agrees with us) to sign the CBA when they did. It cost Ralph absolutley nothing--he knew this all along (he was just angling for extra welfare money). In fact, he made over $100 million after the ink dried. You don't seem to understand this, but ol' Ralphie does.

 

Good teams with rabid fan bases fill the stands even in cold weather doc. Very weak.

 

Gee, if Jones were the Bills owner he would have never put them in Buffalo in the first place. Good point though.

 

Perhaps there is some other reason why the CBA was set-up to favor the big market teams other than player salaries?

[NaPolian8693]

You know what's the difference between Jerry Jones and Ralph Wilson?

 

Super Bowl Rings.

[34-78-83]

I believe they felt that Spiller was the BPA, after the QB, OT's, and DT's they wanted were taken. Why reach for a need, which has gotten then in trouble in the past?

 

As for trading down, there were 7 picks worth of time for someone to come calling for the pick. I doubt anyone did.

 

And again, if Spiller was Ralph's pick, he'd be starting, not a bit player.

 

Thats just it. I wish we could get access to every team's draft boards cuz I doubt ANY of them had the 3rd offensive tackle rated anywhere near as high as Spiller, let alone other positions. He was easily the BPA at the time of selection.

[Doc]

You said:

 

 

 

It seemed to me that you meant that it favored them because they could afford to, and would, spend more money than the small market teams. I've shown you this is not true. Small market teams jumped at the chance to spend more. (I thought listing the top 5 was a good was to show the obvious false nature of your argument---it's clear you have a problem with this). The big market teams' costs actually went up af the CBA even if they didn't spend more on players because they were on the hook for a 5 fold increase in the welfare they would have to pay out to low revenue teams. Anyway, I'm with the 30 billionairish types who thought the CBA was good business (and the cash register agrees with us) to sign the CBA when they did. It cost Ralph absolutley nothing--he knew this all along (he was just angling for extra welfare money). In fact, he made over $100 million after the ink dried. You don't seem to understand this, but ol' Ralphie does.

 

Good teams with rabid fan bases fill the stands even in cold weather doc. Very weak.

 

Gee, if Jones were the Bills owner he would have never put them in Buffalo in the first place. Good point though.

 

Perhaps there is some other reason why the CBA was set-up to favor the big market teams other than player salaries?

I'm done explaining the CBA to you, doc. The fact that the owners killed it just 2 years after signing it says all anyone needs to know about it. And ask Jerry Jones if a lockout now is better for him than a lockout back in 2006 (not that it would have happened then, whereas now it looks like a foregone conclusion).

 

The Bills have had a handful of seasons where they've sold out every game, doc. And during the SB years, they never even got close to selling more than 60K season tix, for an 80K seat stadium. While now fans will sell their tix to the fans of opposing teams so they can recoup their already low investment in season tix. You're indicting Bills fans more than anything else here.

 

Buffalo was a thriving city when the team was first placed there. That however wasn't the point. You keep deflecting the fact that Jones is primarily in it to make money. As are all the owners. You see, Ralph is not alone in that regard. But Ralph hasn't demanded hundreds of millions from Erie County or gouged the fans, while he's spent money on players (oh wait, that's right, another gem of yours was "fans don't care about players.").

[Bill from NYC]

Thats just it. I wish we could get access to every team's draft boards cuz I doubt ANY of them had the 3rd offensive tackle rated anywhere near as high as Spiller, let alone other positions. He was easily the BPA at the time of selection.

 

The importance of Spiller being the BPA fades when your team is dreadful up front, horrid at LB, and strong at running back. They rushed up to the podium to select a situational player at #9, not even considering a tradedown.

I make the case that the Bills were too weak to be entitled to this luxury.

[Mr. WEO]

I'm done explaining the CBA to you, doc. The fact that the owners killed it just 2 years after signing it says all anyone needs to know about it. And ask Jerry Jones if a lockout now is better for him than a lockout back in 2006 (not that it would have happened then, whereas now it looks like a foregone conclusion).

 

The Bills have had a handful of seasons where they've sold out every game, doc. And during the SB years, they never even got close to selling more than 60K season tix, for an 80K seat stadium. While now fans will sell their tix to the fans of opposing teams so they can recoup their already low investment in season tix. You're indicting Bills fans more than anything else here.

 

Buffalo was a thriving city when the team was first placed there. That however wasn't the point. You keep deflecting the fact that Jones is primarily in it to make money. As are all the owners. You see, Ralph is not alone in that regard. But Ralph hasn't demanded hundreds of millions from Erie County or gouged the fans, while he's spent money on players (oh wait, that's right, another gem of yours was "fans don't care about players.").

Of course Jones is in it to make money! But his huge ego makes losing, especially now, a source of personal embarrassment. That alone motivates him to put a winning team together, which he has done in the past. This year is surprising to many. Ralph shows no such desire or embarrassment. Instead he sells home games to canadians and announces THIS year that it will be another (arbitrarily chosen) 3 years before we are a contender again.

 

Ralph did demand money be spent on "Ralph Wilson Stadium" and threatened to move if they didn't. HE didn't offer to help with the costs, despite being the single main beneficiary of the stadium's existence.

 

Prior to the Jags game, the Bills had sold out 26 straight home games.

Edited November 3, 2010 by Mr. WEO

[Doc]

You know what's the difference between Jerry Jones and Ralph Wilson?

 

Super Bowl Rings.

To paraphrase Jerruh himself, "any owner could have won those SB's with that team."

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Joe, it's great to hear from you.

 

 

Nice to be heard. Got that link?

[Bill from NYC]

Nice to be heard. Got that link?

 

Get your meds adjusted buddy. It's worth a try.