One of the Bills supposed strengths: Safety

[Got_Wood]

In my opinion, this is one of the big reasons we continue to lose. Our safeties have terrible pass coverage abilities. Donte is consistently late to react, he takes bad angles, and doesn't know how to read the quarterback's eyes. Byrd plays too deep, doesn't look for the hit, and appears to be a bit slower after his injuries.

 

This is, in my opinion, one of the weakest positions on the team. We give up deep passes up the middle far too often, and it has cost us the game on several occasions. Just ask Todd Heap, Mercedes Lewis, Dustin Keller, Randy Moss, Jermichael Finley, and Anthony Fasano what they think of our coverage deep up the middle. It's pathetic.

 

This offseason would be a good time to let Donte hit the open market, and find ourselves another safety. We may even get a compensatory draft pick for him considering he was a top 10 pick, and may sign a decent contract somewhere else due to his big tackle numbers.

 

Just an observation that I believe needed some attention.

[PromoTheRobot]

The DB play is being compromised because they have to cheat up to help the front 7 on running plays. That makes them susceptible to trick plays like the flea flicker. It's a team game and players don't play in a vacuum.

 

PTR

[b stein 22]

This is the reason george wilson should be playing. He played great last year when donte was injured.

[Lofton80]

It is pretty obvious the opposition targets the middle of the field in the passing game, particularly in the red zone. It does seem like our defenders fall down a lot in coverage.

[Got_Wood]

The DB play is being compromised because they have to cheat up to help the front 7 on running plays. That makes them susceptible to trick plays like the flea flicker. It's a team game and players don't play in a vacuum.

 

PTR

 

I don't think this is accurate actually. You consistently see Byrd playing 15-20 yards back from the line of scrimmage, and playing a center fielder type of role. Yet he somehow can't make plays.

 

And Donte gets caught making terrible angles and overpursuing consistently. Watch the first Randy Moss TD against us. Donte for some reason decided to sprint towards the line of scrimmage as Moss runs right by him over the middle for a 7 yard TD. Same thing happened against Dustin Keller when we played the Jets. It's consistent plays like this that contribute to losing games.

[34-78-83]

I agree the safety play has been particularly horrific

[jr1]

Andra Davis has more interceptions this year than Byrd and Whitner combined

[BuffaloBillsForever]

First offensive play for the Ravens. Instead of running the ball with rice against the worse rushing defense in the league, who did they try to pick on? Donte Whitner.

 

Every team this year has noticed this and are eating us alive with their opposing tight ends. Heap had a monster game, and he wasn't even healthy.

[evilbuffalobob]

If our guys were actually so good, we should be able to play up, yet still cover. They're average at best. Very disappointing.

[vincec]

If our guys were actually so good, we should be able to play up, yet still cover. They're average at best. Very disappointing.

This.

 

They just seem lost out there. Once again though, I blame the coaching for a lot of this. They didn't seem lost last year...

[PromoTheRobot]

If our guys were actually so good, we should be able to play up, yet still cover. They're average at best. Very disappointing.

So you are suggesting a "good" safety can play up and still cover long?

 

PTR

[akm0404]

As most thinking Bills fans would have and did expect, Jairus Byrd came way back down to earth in year two. He was fortunate to get a lot of lucky breaks last year, and it looks like his luck ran out. I hoped it wasn't a fluke, but sadly it appears to have been.

 

He is completely invisible, and the only sniff of making a play that he has had all year was meekly waiting behind Todd Heap in the end zone thinking he'd have one come right to him, before Heap leaped in front of him and made the play.

 

At least Donte gets in the picture and is around the ball as he is getting smoked.

 

So you are suggesting a "good" safety can play up and still cover long?

 

I think people are suggesting that a "good" safety can either cover or tackle, some can even do both. Ours don't appear to be able to do either.

 

You can't have it both ways - if you think Byrd is being forced to play deep and that is why he doesn't make any tackles, you have to wonder why, even playing deep, he gets burned deep regularly and is rarely near the ball.

[Thoner7]

Flea flicker anyone? Thanks for being so aware Byrd, and even more so Donte. I have long since thought our safetys are over rated and that Wilson is the best one. Donte also dropped a pick that could have been a TD and won us the game – but Donte couldn’t make a play to help this team win, story of his career. He has been average at best.

 

I was never impressed with Byrds deflected interceptions last season – 3ish of those were TDs if it was a good pass, 3ish were spoon fed to him, and 3ish others were good plays. But he is never in tight coverage and neither is Donte.

 

I agree with the Op and I think our best safety (GW) is on the bench, and I miss another playmaker…. Jim Leonard, he just makes plays.

[Buftex]

As most thinking Bills fans would have and did expect, Jairus Byrd came way back down to earth in year two. He was fortunate to get a lot of lucky breaks last year, and it looks like his luck ran out. I hoped it wasn't a fluke, but sadly it appears to have been.

 

He is completely invisible, and the only sniff of making a play that he has had all year was meekly waiting behind Todd Heap in the end zone thinking he'd have one come right to him, before Heap leaped in front of him and made the play.

 

At least Donte gets in the picture and is around the ball as he is getting smoked.

 

 

 

I think people are suggesting that a "good" safety can either cover or tackle, some can even do both. Ours don't appear to be able to do either.

 

You can't have it both ways - if you think Byrd is being forced to play deep and that is why he doesn't make any tackles, you have to wonder why, even playing deep, he gets burned deep regularly and is rarely near the ball.

 

Byrd had a great hit on Whitner yesterday!

 

I agree with the Op and I think our best safety (GW) is on the bench, and I miss another playmaker…. Jim Leonard, he just makes plays.

 

Leonard would look just as inept in the Bills defense as Whitner or Byrd. Our front 7 is sub-standard...I hate the Jets as much as anyone, but their defense is a complete unit.

[PromoTheRobot]

I think people are suggesting that a "good" safety can either cover or tackle, some can even do both. Ours don't appear to be able to do either.

 

You can't have it both ways - if you think Byrd is being forced to play deep and that is why he doesn't make any tackles, you have to wonder why, even playing deep, he gets burned deep regularly and is rarely near the ball.

Whatever you say, coach. You must be studying game films and know all the schemes, right? I mean why else would you be saying stuff like this? It's not like you are just some dude watching TV like the rest of us.

 

PTR

[Buftex]

I agree with the Op and I think our best safety (GW) is on the bench, and I miss another playmaker…. Jim Leonard, he just makes plays.

 

Leonard would look just as inept in the Bills defense as Whitner or Byrd. Our front 7 is sub-standard...I hate the Jets as much as anyone, but their defense is a complete unit.

[Got_Wood]

Whatever you say, coach. You must be studying game films and know all the schemes, right? I mean why else would you be saying stuff like this? It's not like you are just some dude watching TV like the rest of us.

 

PTR

 

I don't think you need to be a coach or scout to recognize the problems our safeties are having. I do think it's a little tougher on the safeties when there is no pass rush and QB's have a long time to throw the ball. We need to address the pass rush in the offseason as well. But you can see the mistakes these guys are making out there. The safeties are contributing to these losses, and it's painfully obvious.

[ThePebble19]

This might seem like sort of a cop-out, but our complete inability to put together any sort of pass rush affects the play of the rest of the defense. I think Byrd and Whitner are getting out of position, covering up for the underneath coverage not being able to hold a man in coverage for 5-6 seconds on every single play.

 

That isn't to say that they aren't playing bad, because they are. But the lack of a pass rush is not helping the safeties and corners at all.

[HurlyBurly51]

The DB play is being compromised because they have to cheat up to help the front 7 on running plays. That makes them susceptible to trick plays like the flea flicker. It's a team game and players don't play in a vacuum.

 

PTR

 

How do you explain the Heap TD? He just easily sets up in between Whitner and Scott, and they just watch him catch an easy TD. Pretty piss poor. And that's not an isolated incident.

[PromoTheRobot]

I don't think you need to be a coach or scout to recognize the problems our safeties are having. I do think it's a little tougher on the safeties when there is no pass rush and QB's have a long time to throw the ball. We need to address the pass rush in the offseason as well. But you can see the mistakes these guys are making out there. The safeties are contributing to these losses, and it's painfully obvious.

Actually yes you do...if you want to know what you are talking about.

 

PTR

 

How do you explain the Heap TD? He just easily sets up in between Whitner and Scott, and they just watch him catch an easy TD. Pretty piss poor. And that's not an isolated incident.

Okay, which TD was that? I don't have them all memorized. And also are you basing everything on the snapshot of the catch? What about what led to it? Was there a run fake? What formation was the D in?

 

PTR

[freester]

As most thinking Bills fans would have and did expect, Jairus Byrd came way back down to earth in year two. He was fortunate to get a lot of lucky breaks last year, and it looks like his luck ran out. I hoped it wasn't a fluke, but sadly it appears to have been.

 

He is completely invisible, and the only sniff of making a play that he has had all year was meekly waiting behind Todd Heap in the end zone thinking he'd have one come right to him, before Heap leaped in front of him and made the play.

 

At least Donte gets in the picture and is around the ball as he is getting smoked.

 

 

 

I think people are suggesting that a "good" safety can either cover or tackle, some can even do both. Ours don't appear to be able to do either.

 

You can't have it both ways - if you think Byrd is being forced to play deep and that is why he doesn't make any tackles, you have to wonder why, even playing deep, he gets burned deep regularly and is rarely near the ball.

I agree. Jarius Byrd is by far the most overrated player on the team. He makes no plays. I posted this back about a month ago and I was flamed by the board. Now most educated observers can see him for what he is. A mediocre safety who made a bunch of pics last year.

Edited October 25, 2010 by freester

[PromoTheRobot]

I agree. Jarius Byrd is by far the most overrated player on the team. He makes no plays. I posted this back about a month ago and I was flamed by the board. Now most educated observers can see him for what he is. A mediocre safety who made a bunch of pics last year.

Who do you think overrates him?

 

PTR

[Britbillsfan]

This might seem like sort of a cop-out, but our complete inability to put together any sort of pass rush affects the play of the rest of the defense. I think Byrd and Whitner are getting out of position, covering up for the underneath coverage not being able to hold a man in coverage for 5-6 seconds on every single play.

 

That isn't to say that they aren't playing bad, because they are. But the lack of a pass rush is not helping the safeties and corners at all.

+1

 

Schobel is definitely being missed since none of the current D can provide half the pressure he did. The LBs on our unit are especially bad.

[Got_Wood]

Actually yes you do...if you want to know what you are talking about.

 

PTR

 

PTR, I'm not trying to personally attack your stance on this. But, no you don't have to be a coach or scout to see that mistakes are being made by the safeties. Sorry. If you've played the game and have been around the game your entire life, you understand how it works. This isn't quantum physics or anything you need a graduate degree from MIT to understand. You can watch the game and see a player take a bad angle, react late, get caught out of position, overpursue, miss a tackle, or flat out get outplayed. And that is a fact.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Got_Wood

[akm0404]

Whatever you say, coach. You must be studying game films and know all the schemes, right? I mean why else would you be saying stuff like this? It's not like you are just some dude watching TV like the rest of us.

 

PTR

 

I watch the games. How blind must you be to sing the praises of Jairus Byrd and Donte Whitner - possibly the safety tandem that has made the literal least plays in the NFL this season.

 

Seriously, what are you even talking about? I must be studying game film if I say that Byrd has been completely invisible this year?

 

I also am pretty sure that no scheme has the opposing receivers running wild for free touchdowns with no safeties to be seen. But hey, maybe that makes me coaching material.

 

Actually yes you do...if you want to know what you are talking about.

 

PTR

 

 

Okay, which TD was that? I don't have them all memorized. And also are you basing everything on the snapshot of the catch? What about what led to it? Was there a run fake? What formation was the D in?

 

PTR

 

Wow, I usually think you are a bit overly filled with home-town bluster for my tastes, but you are really outdoing yourself in this thread. It is starting to get uncomfortable...

[GG]

This could be a faulty recollection but I thought safeties looked bad on two Heap TDs. On one, Byrd took a bad angle to get the INT instead of forcing an incomplete (priority one). He was in a good position to force a break up. On the other, Whitner was late off his break towards Heap, after Flacco threw the ball.

[justnzane]

Jesus Christ you guys. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that a good pass rush makes everyone behind them look good. Now since the Bills have a total of 8 sacks on the season, that is indicative of a piss poor pass rush that really could have used an Aaron Schobel. It is a lot easier for a quarterback to pass when he is not getting pressured much.

[Kelly the Dog]

If you give a QB all day to throw, 90% of the throws are going to be on target after waiting for WRs and TEs to get open. When you get pressure and hits and force him to hurry the pass or hit him as he throws, then passes are bad and teams/players get INTs. It's pretty simple. This is the worst pass rush I have ever seen. I mean that. We get SO little pressure it's astounding.

[akm0404]

The Bills aren't even last in the NFL in sacks this year, let alone the worst pass rush of all time. Just saying.

[PromoTheRobot]

I watch the games. How blind must you be to sing the praises of Jairus Byrd and Donte Whitner - possibly the safety tandem that has made the literal least plays in the NFL this season.

 

Seriously, what are you even talking about? I must be studying game film if I say that Byrd has been completely invisible this year?

 

I also am pretty sure that no scheme has the opposing receivers running wild for free touchdowns with no safeties to be seen. But hey, maybe that makes me coaching material.

 

 

 

Wow, I usually think you are a bit overly filled with home-town bluster for my tastes, but you are really outdoing yourself in this thread. It is starting to get uncomfortable...

Your ability to comprehend words must be limited. I never said I was defending anyone, just pointing out how absurd your statements are. You sit at home or in a bar watching TV and you can deduce all that from the snapshot of the receiver making a catch? You can tell everything seeing the DBs entering the picture at that split second? Because that's what you are essentially saying.

 

PTR

[Got_Wood]

If you give a QB all day to throw, 90% of the throws are going to be on target after waiting for WRs and TEs to get open. When you get pressure and hits and force him to hurry the pass or hit him as he throws, then passes are bad and teams/players get INTs. It's pretty simple. This is the worst pass rush I have ever seen. I mean that. We get SO little pressure it's astounding.

 

I definitely agree with you that this is one of the reasons we're struggling. Should be one of the top priorities in the offseason.

 

However, take a look at the Bucs for instance. Lowest sack total in the league at 5, yet they have 10 Ints. Something needs to change with this scheme and these players. We only have ONE interception in 6 games. And it was made by Andra Davis, not a DB. And it's funny that our OLB's, who are supposed to be the pass rushers, have only one sack as well. And it was a fluke that Kelsay even got full credit for the sack.

 

A lot to improve on with this unit.

[Kelly the Dog]

The Bills aren't even last in the NFL in sacks this year, let alone the worst pass rush of all time. Just saying.

 

Actual sack totals are not a good indicator of how good a pass rush is or isn't. Please name me a time when the Bills have gotten less pressure on an opposing team's QB on a play by play basis as this year. Virtually 4 out of every 5 passes there is no pressure at all. I've been watching the Bills since 64-65. There are at least a few Bills teams that were way worse than this version. This isn't the worst defense we have fielded by far. I don't ever remember, however, less pressure from rushers. It's possible I could be forgetting some that were worse. But for six straight games we have been absolutely abysmal getting pressure on the QB.

[akm0404]

Your ability to comprehend words must be limited. I never said I was defending anyone, just pointing out how absurd your statements are. You sit at home or in a bar watching TV and you can deduce all that from the snapshot of the receiver making a catch? You can tell everything seeing the DBs entering the picture at that split second? Because that's what you are essentially saying.

 

PTR

 

*sigh* You really have a terrible attitude, buddy. First off, here is an idea for you: go f yourself.

 

People that watch football have the ability to comprehend whether a player is playing well or poorly from watching the game. I don't need to be a coach to tell when a player has a good performance or a poor one. And you don't either. Are you telling me that Jairus Byrd is playing well this year? I know you aren't a coach either, but it's ok. I won't tell anyone if you want to have an opinion too.

[Punch]

*sigh* You really have a terrible attitude, buddy. First off, here is an idea for you: go f yourself.

Jeez, you guys are being pretty hypocritical here. All of the name calling and telling this guy to leave and critiquing the size of his genitals isn't what I'd call mature and reasonable discourse.

 

You admonish posters in another thread and then you turn right around and hypocritically start flinging insults (not the first time for you, either)... for what, because Promo disagrees with you? Come on man, I agree with some of the points you make but you seem to be sitting around the corner with a sniper rifle taking shots at any potentially optimistic Bills fan in every single thread. Try and relax, you don't win a prize for bludgeoning everyone until they agree with you.

[John from Riverside]

To me the problem is we are not getting pressure.....you cannot ask a secondary to hold down receivers when the QB has all day to throw the ball.

[akm0404]

I agree with some of the points you make but you seem to be sitting around the corner with a sniper rifle taking shots at any potentially optimistic Bills fan in every single thread. Try and relax, you don't win a prize for bludgeoning everyone until they agree with you.

 

I thought the point of this place was to discuss your opinions on the Buffalo Bills. Aren't we supposed to be debating the team? My opinion is that people were overrating Jairus Byrd, and I believe his play this year has in some way proven my opinion to be correct. If people can't handle that without resorting to insults, they get the ol' f you.

[Got_Wood]

Actual sack totals are not a good indicator of how good a pass rush is or isn't. Please name me a time when the Bills have gotten less pressure on an opposing team's QB on a play by play basis as this year. Virtually 4 out of every 5 passes there is no pressure at all. I've been watching the Bills since 64-65. There are at least a few Bills teams that were way worse than this version. This isn't the worst defense we have fielded by far. I don't ever remember, however, less pressure from rushers. It's possible I could be forgetting some that were worse. But for six straight games we have been absolutely abysmal getting pressure on the QB.

 

I agree. I think part of the problem is that the offense almost always knows which players are rushing the passer. It's about as vanilla as it gets with our scheme. We line up 4 or 5 guys, and they're all trying to get to the passer. We're hardly ever mixing it up. It's very easy as an offensive lineman to know your assignments when the defense telegraphs their moves. If you watch the Jets or Steelers play defense, they sometimes have 7 guys lined up on the line of scrimmage and you have NO IDEA which guys are rushing the passer or dropping into coverage. And you see corners and safeties blitzing. We're just not doing that this year.

[Ever Since '86]

George Wilson was nothing short of a bum yesterday...period

[akm0404]

To me the problem is we are not getting pressure.....you cannot ask a secondary to hold down receivers when the QB has all day to throw the ball.

 

Does the fact that Tampa Bay has the fewest sacks in the league but is tied for #4 with 10 interceptions sway your opinion at all? The Bills also had a pretty terrible pass rush last year when they recorded their high number of interceptions.

 

Edit: I do think some pressure would help, but I also don't think that defensive pressure puts safeties in the position to make plays.

Edited October 25, 2010 by akm0404

[atlbillsfan1975]

Heaps two touchdowns were directly on the shoulders of the safeties. And the flea flicker was all Whitner biting. That play hardly ever works to that degree. He was wide open by a god 7-10 yds.

I dont dislike Whitner, but he is not a good safety. He is more or less a reserve in my opinion. If he was not such a leader, you would probably have seen him cut by now.