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folz

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  1. Did you take a look at Matt's quads? Holy moly!
  2. Are you trying to infer that because McD started Peterman, he wasn't on board with the Josh Allen pick? That he was going to push his 5th round QB from the prior year over #7 overall Josh Allen because Peterman was his pick and Josh was Brandon's pick? lol Since McDermott brought Brandon Beane on, they have been a team. There is no way Brandon drafted a QB that McD didn't at least sign off on. And more likely, they dissected the QBs together and made the decision hand-in-hand. Peterman was starting because he had a year under his belt and Josh was a very raw rookie. Remember it was a rebuild year after a purge, they weren't expecting to go on a playoff run or anything. I guarantee you that the plan was always to work Josh into the starting line-up sometime that season, but they were hoping Peterman could buy them some time in letting Josh settle in and acclimate himself to the NFL. It's a big jump from Wyoming. Unfortunately, Nathan couldn't provide that and Josh was forced in earlier than planned. 👍 I wish we could do double emojis so I could both like and laugh at your post. 😆
  3. You guys continue to try and set parameters to fit what you want to prove (and yet there are still a couple of exceptions to your statement---see below). And sure, some of the guys on that list didn't have great luck with QBs (not every head coach does---especially on a list of guys who didn't make a SB), but let's not pretend that none of them had anything to work with at QB: Mike Sherman had Brett Favre (HOF) for 6 years Don Coryell had Dan Fouts (HOF) for 9 years Matt LaFleur had Aaron Rodgers (*HOF) for 4 years Chuck Pagano had Andrew Luck for 5 years Jim Mora had Peyton Manning (HOF) for 4 years Jack Pardee had Joe Thiesman (HOF) for 3 years and Warren Moon (HOF) for 4 years Marty Shottenheimer had Bernie Kosar for 4 years, Joe Montana (HOF) for 2 years, Drew Brees (*HOF) for 4 years, and Philip Rivers for 1 year Steve Mariucci had Steve Young (HOF) for 3 years and Jeff Garcia for 5 years Dennis Green had Warren Moon (HOF) for 3 years and Kurt Warner for 2 years Chuck Knox had Dave Krieg for 8 years and Joe Ferguson for 3 years Marvin Lewis had Jon Kitna 2 years, Carson Palmer 7 years, and Andy Dalton for 8 years Bum Philips had Archie Manning 1 year, Dan Pastorini for 5 years, and Ken Stabler for 3 years. Wade Philips had John Elway (HOF) for 2 years and Tony Romo for 4 years Mike Smith had Matt Ryan for 7 years Jason Garrett had Tony Romo for 6 years and Dak Prescott for 4 years *Future Hall of Famer Obviously not all of those QBs equate to Josh. But then posters like you always seem to forget how raw Josh was coming into the league too. His first two years were seriously on the job training. It wasn't 5 years of automatic HOF QBing from Josh for McDermott. Really, isn't 3-4 years of a HOF QB in their prime just as good (or better) than 5 years of Josh, when you weigh in his first two seasons? He wasn't bad, but how could you equate his rookie year to say Brett Favre's 10th year in the league, or Warren Moon's 12th year, or Joe Montana's...etc.
  4. Yeah, I shouldn't have included Blanton Collier. Good catch. Agree on Coryell. Should be in the HOF regardless of no ring. If Chuck Knox didn't return to the Rams for those last 3 years, he'd still be 13th overall in wins, have a .600 career win %, and in 19 years---13 winning seasons and 11 playoff berths. Great coach, but his 7-11 playoff record hurt him.
  5. I'm not sure if I totally understand what question(s) you are asking and why, but... Here are the coaches with the highest win% with no Super Bowl appearances (including only HCs with all, or the majority of their career in the SB era; active coaches in purple): Matt LaFleur (4 yrs): .712 Blanton Collier (8 yrs): .691 Sean McDermott (6 yrs): .639 Marty Shottenheimer (21 yrs): .613 Mike Sherman (6 yrs): .594 Mike Smith (7 yrs): .589 Mike Vrabel (5yrs): .585 Don Coryell (14 yrs): .572 Wade Phillips (12 yrs): .562 Mike Zimmer (8 yrs): .562 Jason Garrett (10 yrs): .559 Chuck Knox (22 yrs): .558 Joe Schmidt (6 yrs): .558 Chuck Pagano (6 yrs): .552 Frank Reich (5 yrs): .547 Jerry Burns (6 yrs): .547 Dennis Green (13 yrs): .546 Jim Mora (15 yrs): .541 Chuck Fairbanks (6 yrs): .541 Jack Pardee (11 yrs): .530 Brad Childress (5 yrs): .527 John Robinson (9 yrs): .524 Matt Nagy (4 yrs): .523 Bill O'Brien (7 yrs): .520 Kevin Stefanski (3 yrs): .520 Art Shell (5 yrs): .519 Ron Meyer (9 yrs): .519 Marvin Lewis (16 yrs): .518 Steve Mariucci (9 yrs): .518 Bum Phillips (11 yrs): .516 Here are the records/winning percentages, for NFL Head Coaches who made more than one SB, prior to their first SB appearance (there are 35 other guys who made it to a single SB, but I didn't have the time/energy to include all of them---but this should at least give you an idea of whatever you were looking for): [I did not include the four coaches who started coaching well before the Super Bowl era. McDermott is 62-35 .639 for reference.] McVay 11-5 .688 Cowher 32-16 .666 Reid 51-29 .654 Tomlin 10-6 .625 Reeves 45-28 .616 Holmgren 38-26 .594 Flores 9-7 .563 Shanahan 29-23 .558 Coughlin 93-83 .528 Carroll 58-54 .518 Gibbs 8-8 .500 Johnson 29-29 .500 Vermeil 29-31 .483 Levy 61-66 .480 Noll 33-37 .471 Parcells 22-25 .468 Belichick 45-55 .450 Grant 11-14 .440 Fox 7-9 .438 Walsh 8-24 .250 Not sure if this adds up to anything---you'll have to tell me WF. But I had fun crunching the numbers for you.
  6. Just because you don't choose to accept the merits of someone else's argument, doesn't mean they haven't put forth an argument with merit (which I think has been done by many throughout this thread). There are many reasons for wanting to keep McD and thinking a SB is still possible: Ended 17-year playoff drought .639 overall win percentage (21st overall of all coaches who ever coached in the NFL) 3 AFC East titles Playoff berth 5 out of 6 years (one with Tyrod Taylor as QB) 1 AFC Championship appearance Great culture, great locker room/team camaraderie Continuity of systems and personnel (not having to reboot with new schemes, new coaches, etc.) Family atmosphere among team and between team and fans Free agents want to come to Buffalo now Players want to come back to Buffalo after they have left McD brought Beane here In turn, they brought Josh here It was Sean's staff and culture that groomed Josh Josh backs McD This year's team is probably the deepest we've had since the 90s SB era He moved on from Frasier I cut him a lot of slack for how last year ended because I understand that a football team is made up of human beings who can only take so much at one time. ETC. And in earlier posts, I showed a list of many Head Coaches who have made and won a Super Bowl after their 6th year of coaching. (But apparently, the standard is now that he has to have had the same QB and be with the same team). Sure, you too can poke holes in each of my arguments above, but don't act like McD supporters don't have a leg to stand on. Here's a stat to look up, how many coaches were fired after 4 consecutive 10 win seasons and a playoff berth each of those years? How many coaches were fired after a 3-year stretch with a 37-12 record, with the most recent season being 13-3/14-4? You can hold on to the 5 year QB/HC stat, it just doesn't sway me to want to move on from McDermott, or make me believe it is impossible for him to win a SB.
  7. But as others have noted, there is no context for that stat. How many of those QBs started as rookies (their first 5 years in the league)? How many were as raw as Josh? How many of those coaches had prior head coaching experience? How many of those teams were in a rebuild? Or how many were already well-established teams when either the QB or HC took over? What were the circumstances those teams went through in those 5 years? Injuries, etc.? How many duos ended due to either the QB or HC retiring? Who is the owner and GM, what is their relationship with the coach, how do they handle business? ETC. None of that discounts the stat itself, or says it isn't a true stat, but it kind of shows why the stat isn't necessarily predictive of future outcomes. Because each situation is unique. Obviously, Sean will be coaching the team this year and no way Terry fires him mid-season. So, we will all have a new perspective at the end of the season. Either the Bills win the SB and we're all happy, or we will dissect the reasons for not making it or not winning it and adjust our thought processes. If the Bills fail to make the playoffs or something (without some crazy circumstances), or get crushed in the playoffs, or lose to a much lesser team in the POs, then I think you'll find a lot more people agreeing with you. But if they lose a hard-fought game to a very good team in either the AFC Championship game or SB, then you'll probably have to deal with another off-season of fans (and Terry) still backing McDermott. We'll see, but until this season plays out, this argument will just go in circles. You guys have no PROOF that Sean McDermott can't or won't win a Super Bowl, and I and other McD supporters have no PROOF that he can or will. It is all opinion and conjecture. One stat doesn't make something so. I think you are painting McDermott supporters inaccurately. Just because someone wants to stick with the coach doesn't mean they only care about regular season wins and/or don't want a Super Bowl. And no one is saying if he were fired there is no chance that someone else could come in and win a SB. It's an odds thing. For me, there are far greater odds that the next coach could set the team back, rather than win a Super Bowl. For every Siirianni and Gruden, there are 10-20 examples of it not happening. Besides Sirianni hasn't won anything yet. Now if McDermott were a mediocre or bad coach, then sure, you take that chance and make a switch. But when you have a winning coach, who built your program, you give him time (based on the circumstances of his tenure). Some of you guys act like McD walked into a Super Bowl roster and he has failed miserably for 6 years. His first year, he inherited a severely talent-needy team with a below average QB; year two's team had even less talent (as they blew things up to start again and fix the cap) with an extremely raw, but talented QB; year three, still building up talent and Josh was still no where near what he became. So, in essence, it has only been three years where the team was talented enough to really compete. Yet he has a .639 win percentage, despite a 2-3 year rebuild. We don't point out his record because we only care about regular season wins, but to show that he is actually a very good coach. You can't fake it for 6 seasons. [Currently his percentage ranks 21st of all-time for NFL head coaches, just .002 behind Andy Reid.] It is not foolish or some ploy to point out a coach's record. That is one of three main things by which a coach is judged: record, playoff appearances, Super Bowls. Sean has two out of three. I think the arrow is still pointing up. You don't. And that's fine. But at least be honest in your posts. You know McDermott's supporters don't think the way you painted them above.
  8. 👍 Fair enough. And yes, with Landry, it's fair to take him off my list (as an outlier---due to coaching 6 years prior to SBs). But you definitely can't equate him going to and losing an NFL Championship (in a 15-team league, the same year as SBI) the same as going to a Super Bowl. The Super Bowl actually existed that year and Landry wasn't in it. So, I'm fine taking him out of the discussion altogether on both sides. I don't know...it just seems in these discussions that the bar keeps getting set higher and higher for McDermott. The only coach who didn't win appear in a Super Bowl in 5 6 7 8 seasons, with the same team, with a top QB for more than 5 years (no discussion of how raw that QB was), when the president was a democrat, and Mercury was in retrograde. I know, I'm being a bit over the top there, but it just seems that the more variables get added, the less useful the stat is in showing any kind of true trend or to be used as any type of predictor. Look, we're all Bills fans. We all want a Super Bowl. We differ on our feelings about our head coach getting us there. It's all good.
  9. Dude, if you are going to argue a point with examples, maybe you should at least look up those examples to see if they are correct first (verify your information). And I find it interesting that early in this thread it was all about how long it took a coach to WIN a Super Bowl, and once it was shown that like 40% of Super Bowl coaches didn't win their first Super Bowl in 6 years, then the bar lowered to how long it took a coach to APPEAR in a Super Bowl. Yet if McD APPEARED in a Super Bowl and LOST, none of the McD detractors would be happy with that, they would be calling for his head for losing the Super Bowl. So, to lower the bar for your argument, but not for Sean, shows that you are grasping at straws. But, you should at least try and get your arguments correct and not just make stuff up. Here is some data I posted earlier in this thread (obviously you haven't read the whole thread): Coach Years to 1st SB appearance Years to 1st Super Bowl victory Tom Landry 11 12 Bill Belichick 7 7 Andy Reid 6 21 Tom Coughlin 12 12 Pete Carroll 8 8 Chuck Noll 6 6 Bill Cowher 4 14 Tony Dungy 11 11 Dick Vermeil 5 10 John Madden 8 8 Gary Kubiak 9 9 Bruce Arians 8 8 I see seven coaches (not just Madden) who didn't appear in a Super Bowl until after their 7th season (and please check and verify my list). And its hard to use Tom Landry as an example because he coached for 6 years before the Super Bowl existed. So, while he did win Super Bowl #6, you can't count that as his 6th year when he had actually been a head coach for 12 years already. And if you say, well he probably would have done it earlier if Super Bowls existed earlier in his career, I would counter with his win/loss record of his first 6 years (25-53). And using the fact that he made a Championship game in his 7th year, is a bit misleading as well because it was an NFL championship game in the first year of the Super Bowl, that Dallas lost to Green Bay. Green Bay would go on to play and beat the AFL Champion KC Chiefs in Super Bowl I. So, that Championship game, was more like the first NFC championship (not a Super Bowl). Also, there were only 15 NFL teams in 1966 (pre-merger) when Landry made that Championship game. A lot easier to make a Championship game (not even a SB) with 15 teams, rather than 32 teams.
  10. I don't think anyone hated Tyrod then or hates Tyrod now. It's just that at the end of his tenure, most fans could see that he wasn't going to get us where we wanted to go and wanted a change, an upgrade. It had absolutely nothing to do with race (please). It had to do with football. We have wanted to move on from every QB, white or black (including Fitz), who couldn't get it done. Most were done with Fitz by the end of his run too (and Losman and Edwards and...). Fitz just had a bigger and more likable personality, so more fans were attached to him in that way. It's laughable for anyone to pull the race card when it comes to Tyrod. 2015 League average of top 37 QBs (at least 200 pass attempts): 3,245 yards and 21 TDs Tyrod: 3,035 yards and 20 TDs [21 QBs had more yards and 16 QBs had more TDs than the league average in 2015] 2016 League average of top 33 QBs (at least 200 pass attempts): 3,582 yards and 22 TDs Tyrod: 3,023 yards and 17 TDs [19 QBs had more yards and 16 QBs had more TDs than the league average in 2016] 2017 League average of top 35 QBs (at least 200 pass attempts) 3,132 yards and 19 TDs Tyrod: 2,799 yards and 14 TDs [21 QBs had more yards and TDs than the league average in 2017] Tyrod was a below average passer: 2015: 25th in pass yards and 25th in passing TDs 2016: 25th in passing yards and 24th in passing TDs 2017: 21st in passing yards and 23rd in passing TDs And even if you add in his rushing yards, he would still be: 2015: 20th in total yards by a QB (and that's not adding in other QB's rushing stats, so could be a touch lower still) 2016: 20th in total yards by a QB (again not counting other QB's rushing stats) 2017: 21st in total yards by a QB (not counting other QB rushing stats) He was a bottom third of the league QB any way you crack it. Of course everyone was ready to move on after 3 years of that. And there was no hidden potential left to tap. That was his 5th, 6th, and 7th year in the league. That was his ceiling. I think everyone liked Tyrod as a person, just not as their starting QB. I like Tyrod and he will always be part of Bills history for being the QB when we broke the drought, but I don't revere him because his play wasn't good enough for that type of reverence.
  11. Gabe had two targets that he didn't reel in in the Cincy game. Both passes the defender got a hand on the ball before it reached Gabe and the NFL ruled both as pass break-ups, not drops. The first one (I assume this is the one you meant) comes with :19 seconds left in the third quarter (score: Cincy 24 Bills 10). Gabe was open, if Josh leads him, it's a touchdown, but Josh under throws the ball. You can see Gabe having to slow down to wait for it and in the meantime, the defender caught up, put his arm up and the ball grazed the raised hand of the defender before it got to Gabe (which changed the trajectory a bit---as Gabe is now trying to corral the ball with the crook of his outside arm---rather than in closer to his chest). Gabe still might have caught it, but the defender then swiped it out of his arms. And this was on a cold and snowy field too. I think part of the problem with this one is Tony Romo, because on the broadcast, he first says: "That's possibly a game saving play." They show the replay again, and he says, "That's a little bit of a drop though...that ball was perfectly thrown...Gabe Davis doesn't normally..." And then they show the replay again, but most Bills fans are already screaming at Gabe for a drop. Then Tony says, "Ehhhhh, it might have tipped his finger for a second" [meaning the defender's finger] "Good form at the end by Taylor Britt." This miss was more on Josh than Gabe imo, if the ball was out in front, TD. Could Gabe have still caught it and held on, possibly...but it wasn't a "routine drop." The second one comes with 7:32 left in the 4th quarter (score: Cincy 27 Bills 10). Busted play/scramble drill. Josh's throw to the front right corner of the end zone wasn't just way behind Gabe, but it was even behind the defender who was trailing Gabe. The defender had to reach back to even get his hand on the ball and he was behind Davis. Oh and btw, Gabe did pretty good against Miami in the playoffs too (not just the KC game): 113 yards and a TD vs. the Phins. No one is saying Gabe doesn't need to clean up some of the drops from last year, but some of his detractors blame him for a lot of drops that they would forgive other receivers for. And as I have stated a number of times on the site, Gabe Davis was not the problem with the offense last year, it was interior offensive line, lack of a consistent run game, and no slot receiver. All which the team addressed. The lack of a quality slot and run game allowed many teams to bracket both Diggs and Davis. And yet despite the drops, the bracketing, the ankle, Josh's elbow, Gabe still put up excellent stats for a #2 WR. We bolstered the OL, the RBs, and the slot position. We now have 5 guys that could play a slot-like role (Kincaid, Harty, Shakir, Sherfield, Hines). All of this should help free up both outside receivers a lot more and I guarantee you that Gabe has worked like a beast in the offseason on his hands. I think a healthy Gabe, with the improvements on offense, will have a very good year this season. But, either of us could be right or wrong...we'll just have to wait and see...
  12. Is it? Gabe's playoff stats over the last two years (4 games): 18 of 26 (69.2 catch %) for 389 yards and 6 TDs On a per game average that equals: 5 of 7 for 97 yards and 1.5 TDs per game. Playoffs don't seem to be a problem for Gabe.
  13. For what it's worth, the precise number of head coaches appearing in a Super Bowl for the first time is 60 (25 head coaches made it to at least 2 SBs, with Belichick at the top with 9 appearances). There have been 306 NFL head coaches in the Super Bowl era (coached 1966 or later) There have been 57 Super Bowls 60 NFL head coaches have made a Super Bowl appearance (19.6% of all head coaches, in the SB era) 35 NFL head coaches have won a Super Bowl (only 11.44% of all head coaches, in the SB era) Just FYI to anyone who is interested.
  14. First of all, I find it interesting that you chose to include head coaches who have appeared in, but not won a Super Bowl because if McDermott took the Bills to the Super Bowl, but lost, you would be all over him saying, see he can't win the big game when it counts. From reading your posts, I am pretty sure you wouldn't be happy that he got us to a SB, you would be calling for his head because he lost it. Secondly, I haven't crunched all of your data to see if it is correct, but there have been at least 7 coaches, not 5, who didn't make their inaugural Super Bowl until after 7 seasons of head coaching (there may be more, but I'm not sure as I only looked at Super Bowl winning coaches, not all coaches who have appeared in a Super Bowl). And while your data can show some averages of what HAS happened, it is by no means predictive of what CAN or MAY happen. Here are a some coaches who (at least generally) buck your trends/averages (again, I only looked at SB winning coaches): Coach Years to 1st SB appearance Years to 1st Super Bowl victory Tom Landry 11 12 Bill Belichick 7 7 Andy Reid 6 21 Tom Coughlin 12 12 Pete Carroll 8 8 Chuck Noll 6 6 Bill Cowher 4 14 Tony Dungy 11 11 Dick Vermeil 5 10 John Madden 8 8 Gary Kubiak 9 9 Bruce Arians 8 8 Some damn fine coaches on that list.
  15. You throw a lot things out there with absolutely no context or awareness of what actually happened and why. You just look at point totals and make broad, sweeping judgements that aren't accurate. First of all, no one is comparing McD to Belichick. You really can't compare anyone to Belichick. The only reason that Belichick is in the conversation is that the OP was trying to make a case that any defensive head coach who called their own plays was not successful. They (Belichick, Carroll, and Tomlin) were brought up to show that the premise is incorrect. There have been defensive head coaches who called their own plays who were successful. None were meant to be direct comparisons to McD though. But since you brought up comparisons of contemporary coaches with good QBs: in recent posts, I showed that Sean Payton (who is considered a great coach, albeit offensive rather than defensive) only made one Super Bowl in 14 years with HOF QB Drew Brees. They missed the playoffs 5 times during that run too. And after winning a Super Bowl, Mike Tomlin went 13 years without another appearance with Ben Rothlisberger as his QB. In Tomlin's last 10 years, he has had 4 top 10 defensive finishes (by yards) with a 24th, 21st, and 18th place defensive finish in there too. In the last 6 years, McDermott's defense has 4 top 10 defensive rankings. So, some comparisons might be closer than you think (not quite so indisputable). Secondly, if you think "13 seconds" is one of the worst coaching blunders ever, then all I have to say is you must be very young and/or have not really watched that much football. And as others have pointed out in other threads, yards is a much better stat to judge a DC rather than points, as total points do not account for field position, defensive and special teams points, etc (as you'll see below). But you keep using points only because it fits your argument better. McDermott's defensive rankings by yards in Carolina (2011-2016) were: 28, 10, 2, 10, 6, 21. That is four top ten finishes in 6 years. Even counting the two down years, that equates to a 12.83 average placing. You do also realize that in 2010, the Carolina Panthers were the worst team in the league. So, Sean and Ron Rivera were coming into a total rebuild that first year. The Panthers drafted Cam Newton in the first round and traded away their second round pick. They didn't give the defense much help that first year. Also, Luke Kuechly wasn't drafted until 2012, so McD did not have him the first two years in Carolina. And you could also say that McD helped Kuechly become the player he was, so there's that too. McD's defense also revived Thomas Davis' career (Davis played 15 years and 5 of his 7 best seasons were under McD). What about Josh Norman? He had an All-Pro season under McD's development after being a late 5th round draft pick. As far as player development, you have to give McD some credit (Hyde, Poyer, Milano, Tre, Tauron, Dane, etc.). So, McDermott's two down years in Carolina were his first year, 2011, when he was coming into the worst team in the league at that time. And his last year, 2016. Let's look at the 2016 Panthers. They were coming off of losing the Super Bowl (SB hangover perhaps?). The team lost both starting CBs (Josh Norman---contract issue, and Charles Tillman---retirement). McDermott had to start two rookie CBs all year. The team also lost Safety Roman Harper, DT Dwan Edwards, and DE Jared Allen. He lost 3/4 of his secondary before the season started and they were not replaced with top-end players. Also, Kuechly missed 6 games that year, Newton missed 4 games, his rookie corners missed 6 games combined, Mario Addison missed 4 games, the O-line was plagued with injuries, etc. That team was decimated by injuries on top of their off-season losses. As to the Super Bowl, you do realize that the #1 Carolina offense committed 4 turnovers and only scored 10 points right? One turnover was a sack-strip fumble by Newton that was returned by Denver for a TD (do those 7 points go against McD's defense?). Another turnover was a second sack-strip fumble that Denver recovered on Carolina's 4-yard line. The Panthers special teams also gave up a 61-yard punt return. So, for 18 of Denver's 24 points, the Broncos offense needed to gain a total of 18 yards. But no, you're right, it was all McDermott's fault, choking in the post season again. Basically, McD's defense gave up 6 points and the Carolina offense and special teams gave up 18 points. Do you see why point total is not the best stat to use when looking at a defense? Also, in the previous game, the NFC Championship, Carolina held Arizona to 15 points. Besides, since 1990, 26 of 34 Super Bowl winning teams scored 24 points or more. In the last 10 years, only 1 Super Bowl winning team was held under 23 points. So, 24 points isn't some massive defensive failure, when going up against playoff/Super Bowl caliber teams, even if the points had all been on the defense. And guess what, in that 2013 playoff loss, the Panther's offense also only scored 10 points. Newton had two interceptions and the Panthers turned the ball over on downs once. In the 2014 playoffs, the Panthers held Arizona to 16 points in the Wild Card round, then lost to Seattle 31-17. The first three offensive possessions for the Panthers in the first half of that game were a punt, a Newton interception near mid-field, and then a Newton fumble on their own 28-yard line. Carolina's first three possessions of the 2nd half were a punt, punt, Newton interception returned 90 yards for a TD. Hardly seems like you can put that game on the defense either. You always need context when looking at stats. McDermott's time in Carolina was actually very successful, proven by him being a top HC candidate in 2017---because the people who hire head coaches obviously look a lot deeper than points against.
  16. Yes, it appears that Tomlin created the defensive gameplans and called his own plays for at least 2015-2021, possibly a few years prior to that also (2012/3-2014) if the previous Pittsburgh DC is to be believed. And even as the new DC took over last year, the reports were that it was believed that the new DC would call most of the plays. So... https://www.steelernation.com/steelers-mike-tomlin-relinquish https://steelersdepot.com/2022/01/mike-tomlin-called-plays-during-final-years-of-dick-lebeau-era-says-keith-butler/ https://sports.yahoo.com/controlling-steelers-defense-nothing-hc-185211010.html Similar to Reid in KC (and others) with offense, I think there have been many defensive head coaches who have had a "Coordinator" in title, but were really the one controlling the defense. I think this sometimes gets confused for two reasons, 1. There is a stigma amongst some media and fans that it is too much for a Head Coach to also take on coordinator duties, and 2. it is a courtesy to the "named" coordinator to not say they aren't actually in full charge (for future opportunities, pride, etc.). So, it isn't something that you necessarily advertise. But, when you promote young guys from within (like Tomlin has), it's usually because they are there to run your defense. A guy like Leslie Frasier is different. He has been a DC and HC before. It is a much bigger pride/ego issue to not let him call the defense (be in charge in a way). Similar to Mike Tomlin inheriting Dick LeBeau. It appears that LeBeau called the defense early on in their time together, but at some point Tomlin took over the play calling duties (LeBeau's last couple of years). Then LeBeau leaves for Tennessee and Tomlin twice promotes from within, but obviously he had full control of the defense. McDermott just doesn't have someone titled "defensive coordinator" on staff now, but I suspect that "Senior Defensive Assistant" Al Holcomb will fill a similar role as DCs whose defensive head coach is really running the show. And at least with McDermott making it clear that he is in charge and calling plays, there will be no confusion or rumors or whatever. Everyone knows the defense...and the whole team, rests squarely on his shoulders.
  17. The same thing that these three do (or have): Bill Belichick, Pete Carroll, Mike Tomlin...
  18. He had 14 seasons in New Orleans with one of the greatest QBs ever (Drew Brees). He did win a Super Bowl of course, but he also missed the playoffs 5 times (with Brees as his QB) and his playoff record was 9-8 with Drew. And you want a comparison to McDermott? How about New Orleans losing in the divisional round of the 2017-18 playoffs on the last play of the game (the Minnesota Miracle) and then losing again the following year to the Rams in OT. New Orleans led on the scoreboard the entire game, until the Rams tied it up with a field goal with 15 seconds left in the game. The Rams went on to win the game in OT. [And both of those seasons, NO was probably most people's favorite to at least represent the NFC in the SB, if not win it.] Not sure why those things get forgiven for other coaches (Payton, Reid, etc.) but not McD. Doesn't mean Sean Payton is overrated or not a great coach, but it does point out that even a very good coach with an elite QB doesn't just waltz into the Super Bowl every year. Only one Super Bowl appearance in 14 years with an all-time, HOF QB.
  19. I appreciate you responding with actual examples. 👍 But, hard to compare other sports leagues. So, I'll stick to the NFL. So, ok, you gave me two NFL examples. Two coaches still doesn't make it standard to fire a winning coach, but let me counter further. Marty Shottenheimer was in his 21st year as a HC at 64 years old with no SB appearances (as opposed to MCD's 6 years at 49 years old). In 5 years in SD (where he was fired from), Marty made the playoffs 2 years and missed the playoffs 3 years (McD's made 5 of 6). Shottenheimer's career playoff record at that point was 5 and 13 (McD is 4-5). Marty also had a 4-12 and an 8-8 season during that stint. And his last two years in SD: missed the playoffs, lost in Wild Card round to the Jets. Marty was 0-2 in the playoffs in 5 years with SD. Sean has 4 playoff wins. Dungy is probably a better comp. Fired after his sixth season in TB. He made playoffs 4 of 6 years. But his playoff record was only 2-4. Win percentage including playoffs in their first 6 years is Dungy (.549) and McD (.622). And though he had some good records and playoff appearances, Dungy's last three seasons in Tampa were 11-5, 10-6, 9-7 with a 21-3 Wild Card loss to Philly (2000) followed by a 31-9 Wild Card loss to Philly (2001)---no playoff wins in last two seasons. I could see how an owner might see that as being on the decline. McD's last three years were 13-3, 11-6, 13-3 with two playoff wins and then a 42-36 Divisional round loss to KC and a 27-10 loss in the Divisional round to Cincy. Still kind of a different picture between the two. So, even granting these two examples, as I said, it is still few and far between (NFL coaches who are winning getting fired); but even looking at these two examples, both have a much better case for being fired than McDermott does at this point.
  20. Ridiculous. How did he go from how he handled the Damar situation last year and all of his players, the media, and fans praising him for that, from every player talking about how great team chemistry is in Buffalo, and players wanting to return to the team (Cole, John Brown, Jordan P, Shaq, Poyer), etc. to a toxic culture? Because one, ONE, player, who I love, but has shown to be a bit of an out-spoken player in the past, had a bit of an issue about something? And Drama King? Please. Stefon and the media caused the drama, not McD. But he's a drama king because when a reporter specifically said, "how concerning is it?" He answered "very concerning." It's a loaded question. If he says he's not concerned then people are upset with him that he's not taking the Diggs situation seriously, if he answers that he's concerned, then he's creating drama. No doubt Stef had an issue that the team needed to address, but everything else was just media hype (because they want dramas to talk about). Or maybe it's because one former GM with a podcast is intimating that Frasier left because McD is some dictator. Sounds to me more like a, "I wasn't fired, I quit" kind of thing...if even true or coming from Frasier in the first place. Well, that's taking it to the extreme. If you are talking standards, then yes, coaches get fired all of the time without the replacement being set, but most of those coaches were fired for having losing seasons, missing playoffs, etc. I don't think that it is standard to fire a coach who just completed a three-year run of 13-3, 11-6, and 13-3 seasons. Would love to see an example of a coach who was fired immediately after a three-year run like that (my guess is that they are very few and far between). These are your opinions, not facts. If Terry fired Sean at the end of last season because he felt like some of you do, I guarantee that McDermott would have another HC gig either this year or next. A guy who turned around a team who was in a 17-year playoff funk to go to the playoffs 5 of 6 years, has a .639 win percentage, and headed the staff that drafted and developed Josh Allen. Easy hire for a number of teams. When you say "the bills," who do you mean. Are we talking Terry and Beane? If so, I doubt there are many coaches that they would dump McDermott for (if any) at this point. Well you and Ross Tucker agree on that, but again, not a fact...just two opinions. Many people would have Sean McDermott as a top 10 coach in the league right now. Over the last 5 years, the Bills have the third best record in the NFL (only 1 win behind second place New Orleans). In the last nine years, there were 114 playoff spots filled by teams. That means 114 chances for head coaches to "not come up short" and win a Super Bowl. But in those 9 years, only 6 Head Coaches have won a Super Bowl. That means 95% of head coaches who made the playoffs over the last nine years also came up short.
  21. 😆 Not too far wrong: Dolphins won 10 AFC East championships in 15 years (from 1971-1985) Buffalo won 6 AFC East titles in 8 years (from 1988-1995) New England won 19 AFC East titles in 24 years (from 1996-2019) Tough to be a Jets fan: Team # of AFC East titles* Pats 22 Phins 13 Bills 13 Colts 6 (Balt/Ind was only in the AFC East from 1970-2002) Oilers 4 (haven't played in the AFC East since 1969) Jets 4 (they do have their Broadway Joe, historic Super Bowl though) *From Wikipedia, counting from 1960 (starting as the AFL Eastern Conference). I actually like that the division got tougher and won't be a cakewalk. Should make for some good, old school football, where division games are heavyweight bouts. We haven't seen that in the AFC East since before the rise of Tommy and the Hoodie at the turn of the century. And in the long run, hopefully it will just make the Bills more battle-tested for the playoffs.
  22. McNabb and Reid I think a lot of people are underestimating Donovan McNabb. I'm not saying he was better than Josh, but he was no slouch (or not worse enough to use that as some kind of argument). McNabb was selected #2 overall in the 1999 draft. Played 13 years, 6 Pro Bowls, was MVP and offensive player of the year in 2000; and is still currently 27th on the all-time QB passing yards list and 33rd on the all-time QB TD passes list. He also had almost 3,500 rushing yards (10th most for QBs) and 29 rushing TDs. I mean, he was good enough for a lot of people to at least debate if he deserves to be in the HOF. He won't make it in, but just saying, Reid wasn't working with some journeyman QB all those years in Philly. Reid had prime McNabb for 5 of his first 6 years. McDermott has had prime Josh for 3 of his first 6 seasons. Reid got his franchise QB year 1 rather than year 2, and McNabb was much more pro-ready than Josh was coming in. Sure, Reid made a Super Bowl appearance (not a win) and more conference championship appearances in his first 6 years than McDermott, but if you look at an overall snapshot, there are definitely some comparisons. First 6 years: Coach overall record win % Playoff record Reid 64-32 67% 7-5 McDermott 62-35 64% 4-5 13 seconds People just need to get over the 13 seconds already. The way that game was going, whoever had the ball last (in regulation or OT) was going to score. Neither defense was stopping either of those offenses all day long. Ok, so let's say we squib it. We take off what 2 seconds, but KC probably has the ball somewhere between the 20-40. So, could have been about the same or worse and not enough time elapsed to stop Mahomes from doing what he did. We could have tried to pin them deep, but KC had Tyreek back as a returner and he had already earlier gashed us with a big punt return. Say he takes it at the 10 and takes it out to the 40, only wasting a handful of seconds or brings it back all the way. Or who is to say if we did pin them on the 7 yard line, Mahomes doesn't still come up with 2-3 miraculous plays to get them in field goal range. It was as much fate/destiny as it was bad coaching. It was a heartbreaker, but y'all gotta get over it. Not to mention that coaches also learn from their mistakes and get better. Obviously, we can agree to disagree about the Cincinnati loss being understandable due to what the team had to endure last year. Sean Payton And to the other posters who taut Sean Payton, yes, he won a Super Bowl. But, he had 14 years with one of the greatest QBs of all time and only had the one Super Bowl appearance. His overall win percentage is 63% (lower than McD's). His team (with Drew Brees) missed the playoffs 6 of those 14 years. His playoffs record was 9-8 in those years, and 6 of those 8 losses were in the Wild Card or Divisional round. It's Not That Easy I don't point all of this out to put down Sean Payton or Andy Reid, they are both great coaches. Just trying to point out that winning a Super Bowl, even with an elite, or all-time QB isn't as easy as some of you posters make it out to be. Aaron Rodgers has one Super Bowl appearance (and win) in an 18-year career. Drew Brees has one Super Bowl appearance (and win) in a 20-year career. Two of the greatest of all-time, 38 years, 2 SB appearances. A ton of things need to go right to win a Super Bowl, beyond having a great QB, and if you don't win one, it doesn't mean you suck either. [I posted this in a thread a while back for those who think you can't win a SB as a HC after year 6.] "14 of 33 Super Bowl winning head coaches (42.42% of them) had not won a Super Bowl by the end of their 6th season as head coach, including: Bill Belichick, Tom Landry, Andy Reid, Tom Coughlin, Pete Carroll, Chuck Noll, Bill Cowher, Tony Dungy, Hank Stramm, Dick Vermeil, John Madden, Gary Kubiak, and Bruce Arians. 12 of those 14 took at least 8 seasons (on up to Reid's 20 years) before winning the big game." And finally, beyond talent, coaching, chemistry, etc., there is also the element of luck in football that so many don't seem to want to acknowledge for some reason (crazy circumstances, injuries, refs, bad bounces, etc.). Remember the Minnesota Miracle? The Diggs catch that probably kept New Orleans from going to and winning another Super Bowl. Is that on Sean Peyton, like so many put the 13 seconds on McD? What about all of Reid's so-called blunders in the NFC championship games early in his career? Was that Reid or luck? Maybe it was just bad luck for Reid and Peyton, but obviously bad coaching for McDermott. I don't know, there always seem to be excuses for other coaches that aren't allowed for McDermott. And according to some posters, everything McD has done is due to Josh Allen, but when it comes to Belichick, Reid, Peyton, etc. I never hear the only reason they have a good record is because they had an elite QB. You can't have it both ways. Only 3 other active coaches have a higher winning percentage than Sean (LaFleur, Belichick, and Reid). Sean (.639%) falls between Reid (.641%) and Tomlin (.638%). Sean McDermott has more than earned a couple more cracks at this thing (barring any sort of major collapse), imo. P.S. Sorry for the novel-like length, for any of you who actually read this. 😊
  23. I don't know, the posters that call themselves realists seem to throw just as much speculation and opinion out there as any so-called homers do. But if you are negative and say you are a realist then apparently your opinions and speculation are more factual than others. I won't debate the emotional toll of last year (as it has been debated endlessly and nothing will seem to change opinions either way). But, there is a very real human element to sport that I think some are discounting too easily. But I'll agree to disagree there. But what forms your bolded "opinion" above? You make it sound like McD is so afraid of losing his team or job that he hires lesser quality coaches to protect himself (like some paranoid dictator). First of all, that is total speculation/opinion on your part. But just to counter a bit: McD has hired three former NFL head coaches, a former NFL assistant head coach, and a head coach from Alabama. Plus he hired Brian Daboll who left Buffalo to become a head coach. He's had many assistants (at lower positions) that have been former NFL coordinators. And Dorsey could be considered by some as an up-and-coming offensive coach. Maybe you don't like his coaching hires and think there are some young, hot-shot coaches out there that we should have hired...but I can see no evidence that McD is purposely choosing lesser assistant coaches to protect himself. We get it, you don't like McDermott as the head coach of the Bills, you don't like Dorsey, and you're luke-warm on Beane. Yet, we are enjoying a resurgence of Buffalo Bills football because of McD and Beane. We wouldn't have Josh Allen without McD and Beane. We wouldn't have the culture and family-atmosphere that includes the fans without Beane and McD, etc., etc. I know, you don't think McDermott can take us all the way...and at this point, that is a fair argument (I disagree, but that's ok). All I'm saying (to end with a couple of cliches) is be careful what you wish for because the grass isn't always greener. And besides, McDermott is not getting fired this year and probably not next year either (unless the Bills have a total collapse of some sort), so in a way, you just have to suck it up and enjoy the ride anyhow, regardless of how you feel about him.
  24. No question they have had a hard time putting a solid 5 together on the O-line over the years. There always seems to be one or two weak links. But, Cowherd kind of intimates that they have ignored the offense (to any viewers who aren't paying attention), just because we didn't sign a big name like Hopkins. But when you compare the losses and gains on the offense, it is hard to push a narrative that they aren't trying to help Josh. Of course, we have to wait to see if it all works out, but they tried to improve the three major areas of weakness from last year (and each with multiple options): interior O-line, the run game, and the slot receiving position. Gabe Davis (WR #2) wasn't the problem with the offense last year, it was the three areas just mentioned. And the Bills addressed those without breaking the bank (as we were up against the cap). But, when you're looking in from the outside (but not really paying attention---like Cowherd), all you know are the big names and big deals that happen, but ignore all of the other signings and the context and reasons for those signings. Losses Gains Trubisky K. Allen McKenzie Kincaid Harty Sherfield Shorter Singletary Harris Murray Hines (added late last year) Saffold Torrence McGovern Edwards Broeker Shell Boettger (out all last year)
  25. I'm not saying Gabe is as good as Moore (or deserves 20 mil/yr), I am only pointing out that their stats for 2022 were the most similar across the board. Of course, I also noted that Moore was the only WR I listed that didn't have a top QB throwing him the ball (which matters too). Was just trying to see where Gabe slotted in with other receivers stat-wise last year to get an idea of what his value might be or what his agent might argue for. But of course, stats are not the end all be all. But if you break last year's WRs down into tiers of similar production, then Gabe's stats place him in a tier of 11 players (who ranked 25-35 in rec yards last season): Now, this is just my gut opinion, but I think Gabe would be valued more highly than guys like Zay Jones (8mil), Jakobi Meyers (11 mil), and Donovan Peoples-Jones (870,000). But what about the rest of the group (are they all above Gabe?): Allen Lazard (11 mil), George Pickens (rookie deal), Courtland Sutton (15 mil), Drake London (rookie deal), Diontae Johnson (18.355 mil), D.J. Moore (20.628 mil), and Mike Williams (20 mil). That's quite a range of payments for similar production. So what do you think? Below the top three, but above the bottom 4? So, somewhere between 12 and 17 mil for Gabe? If so, what would people think of Gabe getting say 12-15 million/year. And if you expect him to be paid less, what's the reasoning (JuJu only getting 8.5 mil, or other ideas)?
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