folz

First off, I loved Mack too, he was a big part of last season, and I also wish he were still on the team. But, I think we will all miss Hollins' personality and on-field attitude more than his production. And it's tough to quantify how important a guy is in the locker room, as a teammate, etc. And I'm not discounting his blocking or special teams play either. But, I don't think he would be leading in snaps again this year. As BillsFanForever pointed out, I don't think that was the plan for Mack last year even. But with the injuries (to Samuel, Coleman, and Cooper), he was pressed into heavier service. And now with the additions of Palmer and Moore, Keon going into year two (he'll get more playing time than last year), and Samuel (hopefully healthy)---plus the amount that we throw to our RBs and TEs, there just wouldn't be much playing time or balls for Mack this upcoming season---at least on offense (42% of our passing plays last year went to RBs and TEs, not to mention that our run/pass split is already 49 run/51 pass). So, we are already a team that doesn't use their WRs as much as other teams. And you figure we'll mostly be starting Palmer, Coleman, and Shakir. Plus, we run a lot of two TEs and Jumbo packages. Then Samuel would come in as #4. So, Mack would be fighting with Moore, Shenault, Shavers, Prather, Virgil, and Hamler for WR5 snaps. How much do you want to pay for that role (even if special teams is included). Better to go with younger and cheaper. We are paying $2.5 million for Moore (we paid $2.6 million for Mack last year), and Moore brings something Mack doesn't in that role (whatever you think of his overall play). Mack got $8.4 million from NE ($3.5 million of which is guaranteed). So, even if he doesn't hit any incentives, he's still $1 million more than Moore. If he does hit incentives, he could cost 4 times as much as Moore. I won't compare him to Palmer, because Palmer is obviously the more athletically gifted...definitely an upgrade from Mack, imo. Palmer 2,287 yards and 11 TDs in 4 years; Mack 2,069 yards and 15 TDs in 8 years. And as far as Moore: 2,162 yards and 10 TDs in 4 years. Last year, fyi: Hollins had 378 yards and 5 TDs; Palmer had 584 yards and 1 TD; Moore had 538 yards and 1 TD. At his age, this could be Mack's last contract. Yes, winning a Super Bowl would be nice for any player. But, I think many older players (who haven't had huge contracts in their careers) would trade standing on the sidelines for a Super Bowl for a bigger contract that will bring his family financial security after retirement. I've seen $8.4 million everywhere, but the D&C (not sure if they are correct) said it could go up to $10.4 million max, if he hits all incentives. Mack's career earnings are $11.7 million in 8 years. He could almost double his career earnings if he plays well. Hard to turn that down, especially if the Bills were looking at WR5 money (maybe just giving him a slight boost). I mean the Bills might have been willing to go to $3.5 million for Mack, but they probably wouldn't have given him as many incentives as New England and/or he wouldn't have had as much opportunity in Buffalo to reach those incentives. So, imo, it made sense for both the player and the team to move on. But, no doubt we will all miss Mack and it's going to suck seeing him on the other side in the Pats games.

Ah yes, thanks for the correction.

Yeah, I was at that Dallas game too. The win was euphoric after what we had been through. I was sitting in the upper deck with a buddy and his dad. We had almost the entire section to ourselves. There were maybe two other guys down 7-8 rows and over 20 seats, and a couple more people maybe like 20 rows in front of us. I mean the upper deck was sparse of people. And more than a few fans at the game wore brown bags over their heads (in embarrassment of the team). No question the 17-year drought was tough and obviously longer. But, I don't think you guys appreciate how truly bad those earlier years were. 1976: We go 2-12 and coach Saban is replaced by Jim Ringo 1977: We go 3-11, and O.J. gets traded away to San Francisco 1978: We go 5-11...but there is some hope with new coach Chuck Knox. 1979: We improve to 7-9. 1980: We finally have a team, under Knox's direction, and go 11-5, making the playoffs (but losing our first playoff game in the divisional round). 1981: Success under Knox continues with a 10-6 season, a playoff berth, and our first playoff win since 1966 in the Wild Card game (lost in div round). 1982: Strike shortened year. We go 4-5. And Chuck Knox leaves Buffalo. If you youngins never lived through a strike year, let me tell you. it's not fun. Lost games, scab players, etc. A strike year alone feels like 2-3 years of the drought at least. 1983: Welcome aboard coach Kay Stevenson 🤦‍♂️. We draft Jim Kelly #14 overall and he refuses to play in Buffalo (because we're so bad). He leaves for the USFL and the Bills go 8-8. 1984: 2-14 1985: 2-14 Stevenson is dumped and we bring on coach Hank Bullough 🤦‍♂️. 1986: There is hope with the return of Jim Kelly, but we go 4-12 and change coaches mid-season, hiring some unknown coach who was a special teams coordinator for the Chiefs (Marv Levy). 1987: Marv's first (almost) full year we go 7-8, in another strike shortened year. Yes, two strikes, two shortened seasons in 6 years. [1988 would be the start of the 90s Bills team as we knew it.] So, it wasn't a playoff drought (thanks to Chuck Knox in 1980 and 1981), but it was 12 pretty rough years overall (not just two bad years). I grew up in Rochester, the stadium never sold out, so there was a TV blackout for most of the games. Which meant if you didn't go to the game, you had to listen to it on the radio. I probably heard more games than I saw during some of those years. Our winning percentage during the drought was .412%. Our winning percentage during these 12 years was .361% (despite making the playoffs 2 years). It was bad times. Six seasons with 4 or fewer wins. Seven seasons with 5 or fewer wins. Two strikes. Six different coaches in 12 years. During the drought, we only had two seasons with 4 or fewer wins. Three seasons with 5 or fewer wins (in 17 years rather than 12). Six coaches in 17 years. Both periods were rough (as was '67-'72, as OldMan pointed out, though I was not around/too young to remember those years).

Yeah, it would be too difficult to figure out the number and importance of injuries for all teams across the board and compare. So I get saying every team gets injured and should have depth anyhow, so I'm not going to weigh injuries in too much in assessing the playoff losses (or use it as an excuse for years where the injuries weren't that many or significant). But, I would say 7/8 starters out or playing through a significant injury is probably above normal for winning playoff teams (but maybe I'm wrong)---unless the other team is as beat up as you are. And I might put a fake bet down, but I would shorten the time frame to 2021-2023. I think those three seasons we might have been above the norm in significant injuries. But, as you said, ultimately who knows. (and I don't think you're being a jerk 👍.)

Injuries are not the reason we lost all of our playoff games, but no doubt they were an important factor in certain years (a couple of the losses). It shouldn't preclude us from looking at other reasons or factors in our playoff losses though (for instance, 2021/2022: coaching/talent/defense; 2024/2025: refs, etc.). Going back to Detroit last year, they had a lot of injuries...but for some reason, even the backup players got listed in articles and posts about their injuries/losses last year. That usually doesn't happen. But, as far as their playoff game, they were missing 4 players (Hutchinson, Peko, Barnes, and McNeil) who were starters at the beginning of the year. And Anzalone was recently back from injury (so probably not at his peak). But, for instance, in '23/'24 vs. Chiefs in the playoffs, the Bills were missing 5 players (Tre White, Milano, Bernard, Benford, Gabe Davis) who were starters at the beginning of the year. And Rasul Douglas was playing with a knee injury and Taron Johnson was playing through a concussion he sustained the week before. And then if you want to talk volume (in comparison to Detroit's backup players missing, etc.), the Bills were also missing both backup safeties (Rapp and Hamlin), Jordan Phillips, Baylon Spector (normally not a big deal, but with both starting LBs out...), Damien Harris, and our punter Martin was playing injured (groin if I remember correctly). And we only lost by 3 points. Not sure how some posters still don't think injuries were not a factor that year. And, again, why does Detroit get a pass for last year, but the Bills don't get a pass for '23/'24?

The first bolded statement is a decent point. We have tended to go small on defense at certain positions (LB/Secondary) and that could be a factor in those players getting injured. And yes, we have had some injury-prone players (particularly Milano). So, no I wouldn't be surprised to see Milano or a couple of other guys injured. I do hope this is something the Bills brass has at least looked into, from all angles. But, I do think we are a much deeper team now (at most spots) that can withstand injuries a bit better than the teams from say 2020-2023. The weird thing is that the first 3-4 years of the McBeane era, we were one of the least injured teams. Then from the end of 2020 to 2023 it felt like we were one of the more heavily injured teams. Was it a change in training/conditioning staff/methods, was it the type of players we were bringing in, was it just bad luck? And of course, other teams have injuries too. But, there were particular games, Bills/Chiefs 2022 for instance, where we were missing a number of key players on defense (like 5 or 6 guys) and they were only missing like one starter or whatever. It does have an affect on the game. But yes, say in the Cincy game, they were banged up too. I guess we'd have to look back at each game to see how significant the difference was on the injury report, etc. and then how much we think those losses affected the outcomes. So, I get not wanting to lay too much of the blame on injuries, but no doubt they were a factor in at least some of the playoff games. To the second bolded statement. Yes, no question the Lions were depleted by injuries last year and it played a big role in the end of their playoff run. But that's the thing, the national media talked over and over about Detroit's injuries, and posters here too have brought it up a lot. But then when some of us say, well injuries played an issue for the Bills in some years, people say, aw you're just making excuses. Why do injuries factor in for Detroit, but not for Buffalo?

Fair points. There is that possibility too.

That will depend on if there are legitimate excuses or not. You call them excuses, I call them factors and circumstances. I mean, yeah, if we get to the playoffs and are missing 5 defensive starters, while the other team is healthy or say only missing one guy. Yeah, that is a factor. If Josh were to miss a playoff game and we lose, yeah, that is a factor. If the referees make a horrible call on a game changing play, or multiple bad calls that all go against Buffalo, yeah, that is a factor. Rookies are not excuses (outside of at QB). This team brings them along slowly and won't have them out there if they aren't performing well. But, yeah, I really hope there is nothing to point at this year in that vein too.

Yes, since 2020, I think we can honestly say that the Bills have probably been the best overall NFL team in the regular season. Beyond the EPAs you noted above, the Bills have also scored the most points (#1), while surrendering the fewest points (#1). We are #3 in offensive yards (just 27 yards behind #2 SF and 305 yards behind #1 KC, over 5 years). We are #2 in yards allowed by defense (only 9 yards behind #1 SF, over 5 years). We are #1 in defensive turnovers (by a good margin) and #2 in turnover differential (only 4 behind #1 Pittsburgh). Of course, we are #2 in wins. We have played 1 less game than K.C. and they have 5 more wins than us over those 5 years (but, at least as far as the regular season is concerned, we have the head-to-head with K.C. at 4-1---which makes the playoff losses seem even stranger). Bills are #2 in win percentage at .735 (KC is #1 at .786; the next closest team is Green Bay at #3 with .634, a significant drop). What does that all mean? Well, I think all Bills fans should be in agreement that the playoffs is obviously where the problem is. But what that problem is we can't seem to agree on. I agree with Gunner to an extent about elite players. If we had even one or two more game changers that could make a play in crunch time, that would go a long way. So do we blame drafting/free agent acquisitions for that? A lot of people will put it on coaching (bad decisions, getting outcoached, bad defensive schemes). Some will put it on overall talent, or lack of talent at certain positions (WR, for example). Many agree it is the defense that has let us down, but is that talent, coaching, scheme? I know some don't, but I personally give the team a mulligan for the 2022 playoffs. Not sure how some people act like the whole Damar situation didn't or shouldn't have affected that team. So, that is the Miami game you mentioned and the Cincy game. And beyond having KC in front of us and the Damar incident in 2022, there is also the injury issue. The Bills have not been their healthiest (at their best), particularly on defense, for at least 3-4 of those 5 seasons. 2020: Beasley playing on a broken ankle, Diggs playing through a pretty bad knee injury. 2022/2023 our defenses were decimated with injuries. Again, some will say those are excuses, but that is also a factor in the under-performance by the defense in the playoffs, defenses will tend to underperform when they are missing a number of starters. I guess you could knock Beane for depth, but how many teams are going to be as good with a certain number of back-ups in. That's why they are back-ups. And then there is the Chiefs again. One of the best offenses in the last 20 years (for most of their run)---we have faced them 4 times in the playoffs. I would venture to guess if other playoff teams had to face the Chiefs in 4 of their playoff games, their defensive stats would look a lot worse than playing say some 9-8 team in the Wild Card round (i.e., a significant drop from their regular season stats). And lastly, you can't totally discount luck and the NFL/referees either (whether it be injuries, bad bounces of the ball, bad calls, etc.). So, as you and others have noted, it is so many things plied into one that it is hard to put our fingers on just one or two things. But I agree whole-heartedly with your statement that I highlighted in purple. I mean, we are all just fans trying to figure out and fix the problem (from our armchair GM positions). Of course there will be people on the extremes of any discussion. But, where I think the ultimate disconnection is is between those who think since we haven't gotten it done in the playoffs, this regime never will and we should start looking for a change; while others look at the regular season success, and the good playoff games, and the circumstances of each season, and the fact that we've been soooo close in the games with the Chiefs, so they want to stay the course with McBeane. Hopefully, with the defensive additions, and the fact that we are moving into our new stadium next year and Josh just won the MVP, we won't need to have this conversation again next offseason. 🤞 Go Bills! [Randon Note: We are 7-5 in the playoffs since 2020. Interesting to note, playoff points for = 337; playoff points against = 267. So, we have outscored our opponents by 70 points or 6 points per game on average, despite losing 5 of those games.]

I know Einstein's Dog already replied to this, and you responded to him, but I couldn't help myself. First off, Elway was never going to pick Josh. That's why he says now it was a mistake. If he didn't take Chubb, he was going to trade us the pick for us to get Allen (they actually had a deal in place). Obviously we couldn't control Cleveland (being the number 1 pick). It all depended on them and they obviously were not giving up that pick no matter how much Beane offered (same goes for the NYG and the Jets). And everyone knew pre-draft that the Jets were all in on Darnold and Cleveland was either picking Josh or Baker. It was a very poorly kept secret. So, it looked like it was Josh or Baker for the Bills depending on Cleveland. Josh was absolutely the top of the Bills board. Everything that has come out since that draft points to the fact that the Bills were all in on Allen and were totally out on Rosen. No idea how they felt about Baker and Jackson. But I think they had Baker #2 or #3 (with Darnold) and I agree that Jackson may not have been what they were looking for in a QB. You can say it took 3 teams to make a mistake, but then didn't 9 teams make a mistake not picking Mahomes? Does that make the Mahomes pick by KC not really count or something? It's a silly argument. I mean K.C. gets credit for trading up to 10 to get Mahomes, but the Bills don't get credit for trading up to 7 (because someone still could have picked in front of them)? Can't you say the same thing about every QB who didn't go #1 overall? So, do GMs only get credited for a QB if they picked them #1? And do you really think that if McBeane didn't get Josh, they would have just thrown their hands up in the air and said, well I guess were just going to roll with Nathan Peterman for the next five years? Let's say Cleveland took Josh #1 overall. Do the Bills move up then for Baker? Or maybe Baker falls to them at 12 and we keep some of our assets (two second rounders) and pick a couple of excellent players in the second round to go with Baker. Might Baker have done better in Buffalo than he did in Cleveland in a better organization that is very good at player development? Life would have been much different, not better, but I don't think it would have been a death knell for McBeane. Now let's say Cleveland takes Josh, the Jets take Darnold, and then Denver takes Baker. Again, I don't think the Bills wanted Rosen at all. In that scenario, we would still have all of our picks. In 2018, prior to the draft day trades, the Bills had six picks in the first three rounds: 12, 22, 53, 56, 65, and 96. At that point, we could have traded back (for even more picks) and still got Lamar. Or picked another player at 12 and still been able to get Lamar at 22, then still have 4 more picks in rounds 2 and 3. Picking Josh and Tremaine, we ended up with only 3 picks in the first 3 rounds (7, 16, and 96). In this other scenario, we could have had Lamar and 5 other picks in the top 3 rounds (12, 53, 56, 65, and 96). Don't think that scenario would have got McBeane fired either. Worst case scenario, we do not come away with a QB in the 2018 draft (Josh, Baker, and Darnold gone---Bills don't want Rosen or Jackson). So, Beane keeps piling picks to draft one in future drafts. With two first rounders, basically three second rounders, and two third rounders in 2018, Beane could have moved back a number of times, still got a lot of good players to fill the roster, and increased his draft capital significantly in future drafts. Now in 2019, there wasn't much in the way of QB help in the draft. Kyler Murray went #1 overall to ARZ. But, no one else. So, we may have had to wait for 2020. But think of the draft capital that Beane could have built up by then to make a run for Burrow, Herbert, or Hurts (Tua and Love also went in this draft) that year. We may have been a year or two behind where we are (or were at the time), but I don't think it would have cost them their jobs. We still wouldn't have Josh (the unicorn MVP that makes everything better)---but we probably wouldn't suck either with say Burrow, Herbert, or Hurts. Of course, it means (outside of a trade) that we would have had to run with guys like Case Keenum, Mitch Trubisky, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Nick Foles, or Teddy Bridgewater in 2018 and 2019 (or stick with Tyrod), which really wouldn't have affected 2018 much (6-10 record---other than not getting to see Josh develop and leap over Anthony Barr), but obviously 2019 wouldn't have been as exciting a season as it was (we would have still been in QB limbo). Not to say that a Ryan Fitzpatrick, Tyrod Taylor, or Nick Foles couldn't have got us to the playoffs (first round loss that year w/Josh). It probably just wouldn't have been as much fun. And, we obviously would have lost a year or two of QB development. I mean, you can suppose anything. And yes, the NFL would look much different if the Bills didn't draft Josh. But I think McBenae would have a very good chance of still being around in any of the above scenarios. All of the above scenarios, we wouldn't have Josh. But, the talent of the team around the QB we did have (Baker, Lamar, Burrow, Herbert, Hurts) would have been higher (with using our picks and accumulating more). The overall success probably wouldn't be as high without Josh, but we would not be a bad team. And you could say the same of any GM/Head Coach---if they never got a good QB, they'd probably eventually be fired. Uh, yeah. That's why they all try so hard to get one and why Beane wouldn't have given up trying to get one even if we missed on Josh. And finally, not sure what you think is "revisionist history." I personally think Beane is a pretty straight shooter.

Good post Mikie. And I know it sounds like an excuse to some, but the one caveat I would add is Kansas City. Let's just say that over the last 6 years we swapped K.C. and San Fran. Put San Francisco in the AFC and move Kansas City to the NFC. Do you think that maybe Buffalo's and Philly's number of Super Bowl appearances and/or SB wins might be different than it is? I mean, how many more SB appearances or rings would Peyton Manning have if not for Tom Brady and the Patriots.

I would have gone back only to 2018 (not 2017) and just said "Beane's drafting..." But I was responding to another poster who asked to go back to 2017 (to show the entire tenure of the current regime). Since McDermott was in control of the 2017 draft (with Whaley's scouting), I made the title McBeane (to note that I was aware that Beane was not involved in the 2017 draft). Otherwise the first handful of posts probably would have been people reminding me that Beane wasn't part of the 2017 draft. 🙂

Favorable schedule. I like that we have a couple fewer prime time games than the last couple of years. Toughest games at home and spread out across the schedule. No more than two games away at a time. Second fewest travel miles of all teams. Outside of opening day in primetime vs. Baltimore (wow, should be a great---loud---game), our early schedule seems pretty soft which should allow our defense time to gel and to get off on the right side record-wise. They kind of gave us a break with Philly too. Looked to be one of our tougher games, but 2nd last game of the year, both teams could be resting players at that point or at least their playoff berths should be set (may still be fighting for seeding). Don't love the early BYE, but then, we have gotten younger and it will give them a chance to assess and retool the defense if needed. No Miami in the heat. Last year in Rich/Ralph Wilson/The Ralph/New Era/Highmark Stadium, with a favorable schedule...would be nice to open our new stadium as champs next year. 🤞👍

This is actually an extension of a conversation from the "Beane elaborates on the process of picking Josh Allen" topic. But, I thought that I would start a new thread, so more people would weigh in (and because this will be a long post). So, in the other topic, I mentioned that some posters will point out that Philly has drafted more impact players than the Bills. And I pointed out that that isn't surprising, considering most of those impact players came in the last four years when Philly picked significantly higher than the Bills in the draft. For reference again, here are the 1st and 2nd round picks the Eagles and the Bills have had in the first two rounds over the last 4 years. They had 4 picks higher than our best pick, so not surprising that Roseman has picked more impact players over that span, imo. Philly picks: 9, 10, 13, 21, 30, 37, 51, 53 Bills picks: 23, 25, 30, 54, 59, 61. 63 I then linked an old post where I compared Beane's last 4-5 drafts with K.C.'s and Tampa Bay's drafts. Why K.C. and Tampa? Because those are the only two other teams to make the playoffs in each of the last 5 seasons (along with Buffalo). So, K.C. and Tampa are the only teams who have picked relatively close to where the Bills have picked over that same span (to have a fair comparison for Beane's drafts). Roscoe responded as follows: Well, I went through all of the drafts going back to 2017 (posted below). I can answer the average draft position question, but I'd love for people to weigh in on Roscoe's second question. Have all three teams found more impact players than the Bills in that span (and by how much)? Sometimes I think we as fans look at the Bills in a vaacum. We'll point out all of Beane's bad picks and knock him for it, but not actually compare it to the full body of work of other GMs. We just point out other GMs good picks and put them on a pedestal. We don't seem to knock other GMs (as much) for their bad picks or bad draft years. But, I'll leave it up to you guys. As Roscoe asked, here are the last 8 drafts for four of the more successful teams in the league over that span (the draft pick/number is in parentheses---and forgive me for any misspellings of player's names): San Francisco: 2017: (3) Solomon Thomas DE, (31) Reuben Foster LB, (66) Ahkello Witherspoon CB, (104) C.J. Beathard DB, (121) Joe Williams RB, (146) George Kittle TE, (177) Trent Taylor WR, (198) D.J. Jones DT, (202) Pita Taumoepuna CB, (229) Adrien Culbert DB. 2018: (9) Mike McGlinchey T, (44) Dante Pettis WR, (70) Fred Warner LB, (95) Tarvarius Moore S, (128) Kentavius Street DT, (142) D.J. Reed CB, (184) Marcell Harris S, (240), Richie James WR, (223) Julian Taylor DT. 2019: (2) Nick Bosa DE, (36) Deebo Samuel WR, (67) Jalen Hurd WR, (110) Mitch Wishnowsky P, (148 Dre Greenlaw LB, (176) Kaden Smith TE, (183) Justin Skule T, (198) Tim Harris CB. 2020: (14) Javon Kinlaw DT, (25) Brandon Aiyuk WR, (153) Colton McKivitz T, (190) Charlie Woerner TE, (217) Juan Jennings WR. 2021: (3) Trey Lance QB, (48) Aaron Banks OL, (88) Trey Sermon RB, (102) Ambry Thomas DB, (155) Jaylon Moore T, (172) Deommodore Lenoir CB, (180) Talanoa Hufanga S, (194) Elijah Mitchell RB. 2022: (61) Drake Jackson LB, (93) Tyrion Davis-Prince RB, (105) Danny Gray WR, (134) Spencer Burford OL, (172) Samuel Womack CB, (189) Nick Zaken OL, (220) Kalia Davis DT, (221) Tariq Castro-Fields CB, (262) Brock Purdy QB. 2023: (87) Ji'Ayir Brown S, (99) Jake Moody K, (101) Cameron Latu TE, (155) Darrell Luter CB, Robert Beal LB, Dee Winters LB, (247) Brayden Willis TE, (253) Ronnie Bell WR, (255) Jalen Graham S. 2024: (31) Ricky Pearsall WR, (64) Renardo Green DB, (86) Dominick Puni OL, (124) Malik Mustapha DB, (129) Isaac Guerendo RB, (135) Jacob Cowing WR, (215) Jarrett Kingston OL, (251) Tatum Bethune LB. Philadelphia: 2017: (14) Derek Barnett DE, (43) Sydney Jones CB, (99) Rasul Douglas CB, (118) Mack Hollins WR, (132) Donnel Pumphrey RB, (166) Shelton Gibson WR, (184) Nathan Gerry S, (214) Elijah Quails DT. 2018: (49) Dallas Goedert TE, (125) Avonte Maddox CB, (130) Josh Sweat DE, (206) Matt Pryor T, (233) Jordan Mailata T. 2019: (22) Andre Dillard T, (53) Miles Sanders RB, (57) J.J. Arcega-Whiteside WR, (138) Shareef Miller DE, (167) Clayton Thorson QB. 2020: (21) Jalen Reagor WR, (53) Jalen Hurts QB, (103) Davion Taylor LB, (127) K'Von Wallace S, (145) Jack Driscoll G, (168) John Hightower WR, (196) Shaun Bradley LB, (200) Quez Watkins WR, (210) Prince Tega Wanojho T, (233) Casey Tolhill DE. 2021: (10) Devonta Smith WR, (37) Landon Dickerson OL, (73) Milton Williams DL, (123) Zech McPherson DB, (150) Kenneth Gainwell RB, (187) Marlon Tuipulota DL, (191) Tarron Jackson DE, (224) Jacoby Stevens S, (234) Patrick Johnson DE. 2022: (13) Jordan Davis DT, (51) Cam Jurgens OL, (83) Nakobe Dean LB, (181) Kyron Johnson DE, (198) Grant Calcaterra TE. 2023: (9) Jalen Carter, (30) Nolan Smith LB, (65) Tyler Steen OL, Sydney Brown DB, (105) Kelee Ringo DB, (168) Tanner McKee QB, (249) Moro Ojomo DE. 2024: (22) Quinyon Mitchell CB, (40) Cooper Dejean DB, (94) Jalyx Hunt DE, (127) Will Shipley RB, (152) Ainias Smith WR, (155) Jeremiah Trotter, Jr. CB, (185) Johnny Wilson WR, (190) Dylan McMahon OL. Kansas City: 2017: (10) Patrick Mahomes QB, (59) Tanoh Kpassagnon DE, (86) Kareem Hunt RB, (139) Jehu Clesson WR, (183) Ukeme Eligwe LB, (218) Leon McQuay RB. 2018: (46)Breeland Speaks DE, (75) Derrick Nnadi DT, (100) Dorian O'Daniel LB, (124) Armani Watts S, (196) Tremon Smith WR, (198) Khailil McKenzie DT. 2019: (56) Mecole Hardman, (63) Juan Thornhill S, (84) Halen Saunders DT, (201) Rashad Fenton CB, (214) Darwin Thompson RB, (216) Nick Allegretti OL. 2020: (32) Clyde Edwards-Helaire RB, (63) Willie Gay, Jr. LB, (96) Lucas Niang T, (138) L'Jarius Snead S, (177) Michael Danna DE, (237) Thakarius Keyes CB. 2021: (58) Nick Bolton LB, (6) Creed Humphrey OL, (144) Joshua Keindoh DE, (102) Noah Gray TE, (181) Cornell Powell WR, (226) Trey Smith OL. 2022: (21) Trent McDuffie CB, (30) George Karlaftis III DE, (54) Skyy Moore WR, (62) Bryan Cook S, (103) Leo Chenal LB, (135) Joshua Williams CB, (145) Darian Kinnard T, (243) Jaylen Watson DB, (251) Isiah Pacheco RB, (259) Nazah Johnson S. 2023: (31) Felix Anudike-Uzomah DE, (55) Rashee Rice WR, (92) Wanya Morris OL, (119) Chamarri Conner DB, (166) BJ Thompson DE, (194) Keondre Coburn DT, (250) Nic Jones CB. 2024: (28) Xavier Worthy WR, (63) Kingsley Suamataia OL, (131) Jared Wiley TE, (133) Jaden Hicks DB, (211) Kamal Hadden DB, (248) C.J. Hanson OL. Buffalo: 2017: (27) Tre White CB, (37) Zay Jones WR, (63) Dion Dawkins OL, (163) Matt Milano LB, (171) Nathan Peterman QB, (195) Tanner Vallejo LB. 2018: (7) Josh Allen QB, (16) Tremaine Edmunds LB, (96) Harrison Phillips DT, (121) Taron Johnson CB, (154) Siran Neal DB, (166) Wyatt Teller OL, (187) Ray Ray McCloud WR, (258) Austin Proehl WR. 2019: (9) Ed Oliver DT, (38) Cody Ford OL, (74) Devin Singletary RB, (96) Dwson Knox TE, (147) Vosean Joseph LB, (181) Jaquan Johnson CB, (225) Darryl Johnson DE, (228) Tommy Sweeney TE. 2020: (54) A.J. Epenesa DE, (86) Zack Moss RB, (128) Gabe Davis WR, (167) Jake Fromm QB, (188) Tyler Bass K, (207) Isaiah Hodgins WR, (239) Dane Jackson CB. 2021: (30) Greg Rousseau, (61) Boogie Basham DE, (93) Spencer Brown OL, (161) Tommy Doyle OL, (203) Marquez-Stevenson WR, (212) Damar Hamlin S, (213) Rachad Wildgoose CB, (236) Jack Anderson OL. 2022: (23) Kaiir Elam CB, (63) James Cook RB, (89) Terrell Bernard LB, (48) Khalil Shakir WR, (180) Matt Araiza P, (185) Christian Benford CB, (209) Luke Tenuta OL, (231) Baylon Spector LB. 2023: (25) Dalton Kincaid, (59) O'Cyrus Torrence OL, (91) Dorian Williams LB, (150) Justin Shorter WR, (230) Nick Broeker OL, (252) Alex Austin DB. 2024: (33) Keon Coleman WR, (60) Cole Bishop S, (95) DeWayne Carter DT, (128) Ray Davis RB, (141) Sedrick Van Pran-Granger OL, (160) Edefuan Ulofoshio LB, (168) Javon Solomon De, (204) Tylan Grable OL, (219) DaeQuan Hardy CB, (221) Travis Clayton OL. 2016-2024 Team Record Number of Picks Avg. Draft Number Playoff Appearances Conf Champ Appearances SB Appearances SB Wins San Francisco 72-76 66 133.6 4 4 2 0 Philadelphia 90-57 57 121.9 7 3 3 2 Kansas City 112-36 54 126.9 8 7 5 3 Buffalo* 93-54 61 134.3 7 2 0 0 *Obviously McBeane were not here in 2016, when the Bills went 7-9, which is included in the overall record above. But I kept that in because it affected our 2017 draft position. So, over McBeane's tenure, Philly (and KC) have still picked higher than both Buffalo and San Fran on average (obviously, some of that were trades, etc. as Philly had a similar overall record to the Bills and KC had a better record). But, the biggest thing that jumps out to me from that table is Kansas City's record---112 wins, 7 Conference Championship games. People like to knock the Bills for not making the Super Bowl yet, and praise Philadelphia. But, hasn't the Eagles (and Niners) path to the Super Bowl from the NFC been quite a bit easier than Buffalo's, without Kansas City being in their way? I mean Roscoe named San Fran as the other biggest NFC contender over that span and despite two Super Bowl appearances, they don't even have an above .500 record over that stretch. But, let me know what you guys think in regards to drafting impact players, or comparing Beane's drafts overall to the other three teams (if you actually took the time to read this very long post. 😬🙂). Obviously, each GM has their misses (even in the first two rounds). Interesting to note, all four teams got a franchise QB over that stretch. And I honestly think (may be my Bills bias), you could argue that Buffalo was either first or second in at least three of those eight drafts (despite a couple of clunker years from Beane---but the other GMs had some clunkers too). Go Bills!

I agree that Ed has never quite reached his draft status. At pick 9, yes, you're hoping for an Aaron Donald or the like---which Ed is not. But, he is still an excellent player in my opinion. Not elite, but very good. And I have a feeling he may have a big year, with a better line around him. But yes, you can knock the pick a bit because we could have traded back and still had Christian Wilkins, Dexter Lawrence, or Jeffrey Simmons. So, it could have been a better pick, but it was by no means a bad pick. And a challenge, huh? I already did K.C. (for 2021-2024) in the post I linked. But adding the Eagles and SF and going back to 2018 or 2017 (probably 2018 is the better choice, as 2017 wasn't a Beane draft), might take some time. The reason I included Tampa is because Buffalo, K.C., and Tampa are the only three teams to make the playoffs in each of the last 5 years, so they have relatively been drafting in the same range over that time. So, my purpose was to compare Buffalo's drafts to teams that were drafting in the same range as us to determine if Beane does better or worse on average with those teams. Again, I think it is an unfair comparison to compare Beane's drafts with teams that are drafting significantly higher than us.

And that helped us to get Josh Allen and Ed Oliver. Two excellent players who have been with the team for 7 and 8 years now. The reason I only went back 4 years with Philly is because those are the years that they drafted the "impact" players that people talk about. I don't think we'd want to count Philly's 2019 1st-rounder Andre Dillard (19 starts for the Eagles in 6 years---backup O-lineman), or their 2020 1st-rounder Jalen Reagor, who only spent two years in Philly. Not quite "impact" players. I guess every GM makes mistakes. People bring up Philly often, but they actually aren't a good comparison because of where they have drafted in comparison to the Bills over the last 4 years. I made a post a while back showing that the better comparisons are K.C. and Tampa, as they have drafted closer to where Buffalo has. In the post I compare the first 3 rounds of the last four drafts of those three teams (Buffalo, K.C., and Tampa) if you care to check it out.

They were also a 4-win team in 2020 and a 9-win team in 2021. [13-19 record compared to the Bills 24-9 record those two years.]

It seems you have a lot of negatives for a very good team. But, I'll just address the two bolded. How are you so sure about Coleman yet? He was a rookie who had a pretty bad injury. You didn't seem to mention his injury, hmmm. He was out for 4-1/2 games. In the meantime, Hollins got more playing time, Samuel was finally healthy enough to get more snaps, and Amari was getting more snaps (after his addition). The offense adapted and changed with Keon out. And they were still being successful, so they ran with what they were doing (which meant fewer snaps for Keon on his return). Now, it also appears that something happened after the injury too. Sounds like maybe he either got a bit skittish or didn't work hard enough coming back from the injury (or a combination of both), based on what McD said at the end of the year. But, again, he was a rookie coming back from his first major injury to a diminished role. Give the kid some time to mature. The two games before the injury he had 170 yards and a TD. I don't think you should write off Keon so easily or so early. And you do realize that Brandon was in an interview and was being asked questions right? Rich Eisen asked him specifically about drafting Josh, so he spoke about it. You make it sound like Beane went on with some agenda or something. If Reid or Roseman were asked about drafting Mahomes and Hurts in an interview, I'm sure they would answer. And do you watch all of the K.C. and Philly media? Have you seen all of Reid's and Roseman's interviews since drafting said players? I'm sure they've talked about drafting those guys plenty of times. Seriously, the lengths some of you guys go to to try and knock Beane...

Getting to 7 was not that easy. It took two separate trades, giving up 4 picks and a player to do so. And as others have said, no one in the top 6 was willing to budge. I'm sure they offered quite a bit to the Giants to try and get up to #2. But were denied. But you somehow fault Beane (or call him lucky) for not giving up more assets to get higher? You have no idea what they offered to move up. Plus, the only luck was Cleveland not taking Josh at one. And if they had, that wouldn't have been on Beane, you are not getting a QB-hungry team out of the first spot in what was considered an all-time QB draft (at the time). Everyone knew the Jets were in on Darnold and no one in the top 6 besides Cleveland wanted a QB. Maybe Denver debated about it, but ultimately they went with Chubb (obviously were not totally sold on Josh). Elway was going to trade the pick to Buffalo if Chubb wasn't there, so they were NOT picking Josh. How about you? You knock Beane for not being more aggressive to get Josh. [Still got him btw.] Was he your first pick QB in that draft? And if I remember correctly (and I think I do), there was an image that came out after the draft at some point that showed Josh was actually at the top of their board of the QBs. You can deny it, but everything points to the Bills wanted Allen most of all of the QBs that year (unlike most Bills fans at the time). As to a TON of VERY disappointing 1st and 2nd round picks, well, let's take a look: 1st round: Josh Allen, Ed Oliver, Tremaine Edmunds, Greg Rousseau, Kaiir Elam, Dalton Kincaid 2nd round: Cody Ford, AJ Epenesa, Boogie Basham, James Cook, O'Cyrus Torrence, Cole Bishop, Keon Coleman 13 picks total. I see 3 Busts (Ford, Elam, Boogie). I wouldn't be surprised if you looked at other teams last 13 1st and 2nd round picks, you would probably find at least 3 busts as well--or more (and many of those teams were drafting higher than us). So, 3 busts, 2 studs (Josh and Jimbo), 3 players close to stud-level (Rousseau, Oliver, Torrence), 2 players that it's still too early to tell (Coleman and Bishop), and 3 players that are solid players, but didn't quite reach their draft status (Edmunds, Epenesa, Kincaid---though I still think Kincaid will). It's not a homerun by any means (outside of Josh and Jimbo), but it's also not as bad as you make it out to be. Plus, with the three busts, Beane at least turned them into a 5th and two 6ths (got something for nothing at least). Those picks turned into Justin Shorter, Jordan Hancock, and Dorian Strong. Shorter was not a great pick, but if Hancock and Strong do well, at least we didn't come away with nothing. Oh and btw, no matter how bad we think he is, Ford is still a starting offensive lineman in the league (so a bust for us, but not a total washout in the league). And not that it says much, but Kaiir and Boogie are still in the league too (probably won't be starters though, obviously---or have a long career it appears). Again, you must have context to things. For instance, people bring up Howie Roseman and the Eagles as an example of picking impact players (in contrast to Beane). But, they always fail to note that over the last 4 years the Eagles have picked significantly higher than we have. Here are the 1st and 2nd round picks the Eagles (8 picks) and the Bills (7 picks) have had in the first two rounds over the last 4 years. Philly picks: 9, 10, 13, 21, 30, 37, 51, 53 Bills picks: 23, 25, 30, 54, 59, 61. 63 Don't you think that maybe if the roles were reversed (pick-wise) Brandon would have some more impact players on the team? They had 4 picks higher than our best pick. If you averaged all of the picks together, that equates to Philly picking 28th and the Bills picking 45th. Doesn't everyone color their stories to accentuate the positives. It is a fairly human trait imo. And it's also a business that is trying to make money. Of course they are going to try and put a good face on everything. Every team does it. Every company does it. Plus, it seems a bit condescending to tell all of us that we just aren't prescient enough to see through all of Beane's lies, scams, and political speak. Beane has actually been one of the most open and honest GMs or coaches I have seen in the league in a while. Sure, there are some things he needs to keep close to the vest for competitive reasons, etc. But this idea that Beane is trying to get over on the fans, and plans and creates elaborate stunts to do so is bull imo. He has often admitted mistakes (such as letting Wyatt Teller go). Even in his press conference after this year's draft he talked about missing at CB (Elam) and mentioned picking Boogie. He is not some ego-maniac who can't admit his mistakes or is always lying to make himself look better.

I'm a little late to this thread. And I didn't pay enough attention to other teams to have a strong opinion myself. So, I thought that I would check the internet for any new rankings or whatever of NFL offseasons. There actually wasn't too much that I could find. There were a lot of separate FA rankings and draft rankings, but not a lot of combined offseason as a whole rankings. But here is what I found. The NFL had six of their staff members pick the NFL team they thought had the best offseason: Jeffri Chadiha: Chicago; Marc Ross: Washington; Ali Bhanpuri: L.A. Rams; Maurice Jones-Drew: New England; Kevin Patra: Chicago; Brooke Lersosimo: Denver. Mike Florio and Chris Simms singled out 4 teams they thought had the best offseasons: New England, Las Vegas, Chicago, L.A. Rams. Bleacher Report had a most improved teams going into 2025 with: 1. Chicago; 2. Las Vegas; 3. Atlanta; 4. New England; 5. Arizona. MSN had a video of best offseason, picking: Carolina, New England, Chicago, and Minnesota. I also looked at the change in some of the Power Rankings (from Feb. after SB to today after draft), to kind of get an idea. NFL.com Biggest jumps: San Francisco and Chicago +6; Baltimore, L.A. Rams, Cinci, Seattle, and NO were all +3 spots Biggest drops: Houston, Miami, and Cleveland are all -4; Minnesota, Indy, Dallas, and Pittsburgh all dropped 3 spots ESPN: Biggest jump: L.A. Rams +5 Biggest drops: Tampa Bay -4, L.A. Chargers -3. CBS Sports: Biggest jumps: San Francisco and New England both +9; Chicago, Jacksonville, and Minnesota all +7 Biggest drops: Seattle -11, Minnesota -7; Pittsburgh, Miami, Indy, Carolina, and New Orleans all -6 FOX Sports: Biggest jumps: Las Vegas, Dallas, Tenn, and NYG all +3 Biggest drops: Atlanta and Pittsburgh both -4, Miami -3 So, at least according to the above consensus, it looks like Chicago, New England, and the L.A. Rams are leading the pack for best offseason. Interesting to note, both Minnesota and Seattle made the top of some lists and the bottom of others. They seem to be the two teams where there is no consensus on if they improved or got worse. Also, in the Power Rankings, Miami is one of the biggest droppers on 3 of the 4 lists (they also fell two spots in the ESPN rankings). FYI: Bills went down from 2 to 3 on CBS, stayed at #3 on FOX, went up from 4 to 3 on ESPN, and stayed at #4 on NFL.com.

Options not listed by the OP (to round out the impressive list): J. P. Losman, Trent Edwards, Brian Brohm, EJ Manuel, Thad Lewis, Jeff Tuel, Kyle Orton, Matt Cassell, Nathan Peterman, Derek Anderson, Matt Barkley (not that anyone would chose any of those guys). Oh, and Billy Jo Hobert. He never officially had a start, but played in two games (and was obviously a fan favorite. 🙃) I think you could make a case for Bledsoe (year 1 in Buffalo) and for Flutie too. But I think I'm either going with Fitz or Tyrod. Bledsoe's age and lack of mobility and Flutie's height would worry me in today's NFL. Fitz is the classic backup, smart, and with our running game and short passing game, he wouldn't be asked to go out and win games in the 4th quarter (which is when he would throw most of his INTs during his stint in Buffalo), and Tyrod isn't going to win the game for you, but he also isn't going to lose it for you. So, again, with the strength of our team, Tyrod could be a good game manager and use his legs when in trouble. I almost just convinced myself into picking Tyrod. But, ultimately, I think I'd take Fitz as Josh's backup. But, if the question were just best Bills QB ('97-'17) then I think I'd vote Bledsoe in year 1 with the Bills. Flutie #2. Fitz #3. Tyrod #4. The rest really aren't worth mentioning.

The only thing that I'm taking away from Worthy is the 26-yard catch in the AFC Championship game. No question that should have been called either an interception or an incomplete pass. Very bad call (amongst many in that game) by the refs. And if not for the refs, Worthy might not have even had a chance to go off in the Super Bowl (imo, but that's a different discussion). But, as far as the Super Bowl, his production did come in garbage time. Doesn't mean it doesn't count, but it does make me wonder if Philly had let up a bit at that point (up 28 points, end of the 3rd quarter). Had it still been a one-score game would KC have still had that same late-game production? It is a legitimate question. I don't knock Worthy for it, but it also doesn't make me think he's gonna be a HOFer based on that production (yet) either. Also, my discussion of Worthy was in response to another Bills fan. There are some Bills fans that seem to trash Keon Coleman, but are ready to give Worthy a yellow jacket already. And there is the narrative of the Bills getting rooked again by the Chiefs in the draft. Which is a silly narrative because both times (Mahomes and Worthy), we traded back to KC. Meaning, we didn't want who they picked. With Mahomes, we had a new coach and a lame duck GM, who had already whiffed bad on a QB. McDermott knew he was going to bring in Brandon Beane after the draft (and fire the old GM) and the following year (2018) was looking to be a generational QB draft class (at the time). We were not ready to draft a QB in 2017. And by the time Mahomes started lighting it up in his second year, we already had Josh. And my honest take on Worthy (at the time of the draft and still now), was that each team got the receiver they wanted. We weren't looking for a speed receiver last year. We needed a bigger guy, who could block and get 50/50 balls/contested catches. You guys were looking for speed (a new Tyreek---kind of). The Bills didn't want Worthy, so not sure how KC "got one over on us." But that narrative (and probably listening to the draft gurus too much before last year's draft) has made some Bills fans, imo, overrate Worthy and underrate Coleman. I guess we'll see how it plays out. But, from time to time, I have pushed back on the Worthy is already an All-Pro sentiment because of that. Look, he may become a great receiver (and his Super Bowl production is very encouraging), I'm just not totally sold on that yet. I need to see more. If you include the first two playoff games (all catches) and the regular season (18 games, not counting the Super Bowl or week 17 when he sat out), Worthy averaged 43 yards and 0.38 TDs per game receiving. He had a good rookie year (not a great rookie year). I personally still think that both receivers (Worthy and Coleman) will have success in the league. I don't think Worthy is trash or anything. If I was a KC fan, I'd be totally on board, just as I am as a Bills fan for Keon. But, I'm also not sold that either of them have "made it" just yet. Or that Worthy is guaranteed to be the far superior player, etc. I think we still need to see more from both players before any anointings.

LEBills: Josh has been performing at an MVP level for 5 years now. He has been top 3 in MVP voting 4 of the last 5 seasons. I don't think you have to worry about him sustaining that level despite who is around him on offense. And BADOL: Same goes for Cook and the O-line. I don't expect Cook to have as many TDs as last year (that was a lot), but there is no reason he should regress or not have another good year. And the offensive line has been very good and very healthy (for two years). Plus we have good depth if there are injuries this year. It's like you guys are really stretching to find some negatives to prove that the team will regress. You are saying it's because lack of good enough WRs, but then it's also Josh can't sustain, the O-line will fall apart, Cook will regress, our defense will still be terrible despite the additions. It doesn't make sense to me. And this narrative that Josh has to be Superman and do everything by himself needs to end. It is a myth. Josh would be doing superhuman stuff regardless of how good the team around him is. You could put him on an All-star team with All-Pros at every position or the worst team in the league and he's still going to run the ball, hurdle people, throw lasers, etc. It is just who Josh is. He is a generational QB. That's what makes him a generational talent. I think it's very disrespectful to the other players for fans to keep saying Josh is doing it all by himself. It's just not true. -From a quick search, our offensive line is generally ranked between 4-8. Either way, a top 5-10 offensive line (or you could say one of the best in the league). BTW, Josh was the least sacked QB in the league last year and had the fewest INTs of his career. -I couldn't find rankings for runningback rooms going into 2025. But, you would be hard-pressed to find too many RB rooms in the NFL that are better top to bottom than Cook, Davis, and Johnson. Again, I would guess that we are at least in the top 5-10 range, like the O-line. -Definitely would like to see more production from the TE room this year, but again, talent-wise at least Kincaid, Knox, Hawes, and Davidson are a pretty good unit. Not sure where they'd rank, but I'd say at least top half of the league with a lot of room for growth and improvement still. So, a top 4-8 O-line, say a top 4-7 RB room, and at least a top 15 TE room and I'm to believe that Josh is doing it all on his own? And as so many have pointed out, when you look at weapons as a whole, rather than just WRs, Josh has plenty of weapons: Shakir, Palmer, Coleman, Samuel, Moore, Kincaid, Knox, Cook, Davis, Johnson. There may not be a super-stud in that group, but that's 10 very good players that I feel confident can get the job done (and most of them are young, in the up-swing of their careers, still with room to grow/improve). Our TES and RBs accounted for 45% of our passing production last year and 43% of our passing TDs. And that wasn't out of desperation because we had no WRs...that is by design (everyone eats). We are not a traditional offense anymore because we have a unicorn QB who can read defenses, make all the throws, and has quick decision making. So, we scheme guys open and Josh spreads the ball around to the open man (who could be anyone). Or, in another way, you could say we are more traditional (throwback---as we ran the ball 49% last year). So, if we run 49% of the time, and 43% of our passing production goes to RBs and TEs, then our WRs are only accounting for about 22% of our total offensive production. So, how much money/resources should be spent on that position? How many stud WRs are going to be happy getting say 1/4th of 22% of the total offensive production. Even if you split the WR plays into only 3 WRs (rather than 5 or more), then each receiver is only averaging 4.4 receptions per game. We averaged only 13 pass completions per game to WRs last year. I don't think a stud receiver (who'll want 8-10 balls/game), in general, is going to be happy playing on a team like that. (Sure if you pick a rookie, they have no choice). Now, I'm not saying that we don't need good receivers...as Beane said, you'd love to have All-Pros at every position. But, I can understand, at least, the idea of not overpaying the room (based on the amount of their overall production), or not paying for a stud FA WR who probably wouldn't be happy with the number of balls thrown to him, and who would cost way more than the amount of production he could provide in this offense. And again, with Amari. People chalk him up as a major loss to the WR room. But he only started 3 games, played only 21% of the total offensive snaps by the Bills last year, had less than 300 yards, and only 2 TDs. That amount of production is easily replaced. And let's face it, Amari is getting old, and he was dealing both with injuries and adapting to a new team/offense/QB mid-season. Let's not act like we had prime Amari Cooper all last year. Hollins did play 66% of the offensive snaps, was a great blocker, and a bit of a spark plug. But production-wise, he only had 378 yards and 5 TDs (granted, some of those TDs were clutch). Is there any reason to think Keon won't improve in his second year? Or Kincaid going into his third year? Is there any reason to think that (if all else stayed the same) Palmer and Moore combined can't match 675 yards and 7 TDs (the combined production of Hollins and Cooper last year)? I personally think that Palmer is a pretty decent upgrade from Hollins. And Moore alone, if given the chance, should at least be able to give us what Amari did (21% snaps, 297 yards, 2 TDs). I mean, it's not a high ceiling to reach just to stay even with last year. I just don't see a down grade. And Clutch doesn't have to come from only your WRs. How many times was Bruce Smith clutch coming up with a sack or strip sack at just the right moment. How many times did Tre come up clutch early in his career with a key turnover in the 4th quarter at a crucial moment, etc. Clutch can come from many places, not just the WR room. And finally, [sorry this is so long] BADOL, it feels like sometimes you have anti-Bills googles on. Meaning you see all of our flaws, but act as if other teams don't also have their flaws. I mean, to say Worthy was rapidly ascending before the AFC Championship game and Super Bowl? In his last 8 games played before the playoffs (not counting week 17 when he sat out), he averaged 50 yards and 0.375 TDs per game. Across the full season, he averaged 40 yards and 0.375 TDs per game. If those were Keon Coleman stats, you would be railing about how bad he is, not calling him an ascending player. And as far as the playoffs are concerned, in the AFC Championship game, if you take away the catch that wasn't a catch, he had 59 yards and 1 TD. In the Super Bowl, all of his production came in garbage time. When he made his first big catch, there was only 2:33 left in the 3rd quarter and the Eagles were already up 34-6. Prior to that catch (in the bulk of the first 3 quarters, when it counted), Worthy had 2 receptions for 9 yards, and 0 TDs. I'm not sold on Worthy yet, and I'm not down on Keon. Not sure, why you are so firmly the other way.

I don't know much about any attitude issues in NY or Cleveland. But, if that is the case, I can understand that as a concern. But, it also can depend on why he was disgruntled (if he was). Was he just frustrated about not winning (his teams went 25-68 over the last 4 years, 3 losing seasons, a 3-win season, and a 4-win season). QB play? Or was it due to lack of work ethic or issues with coaches or teammates, etc. So, if it was the former, well the Bills win a lot and as they say winning solves a lot of issues. And our locker room is so strong that it can handle a couple of guys that may not be perfect Bills DNA. But would they have brought him in if they thought his attitude, etc. was that bad? It's hard for me to think that Beane and McD would be ok with a guy who has bad work ethic, or attitude with coaches/teammates, etc. Maybe we'll find he's like Diggs (attitude-wise, not skill-wise), or maybe he'll turn things around in a better organization with a better QB. And I know it has been repeated by a number of posters, but I think it's tough to judge him too harshly on last year (2024). -His offensive coordinator was Ken Dorsey -Cleveland is a mess of a franchise -They were a 3-win team -He had 4 different quarterbacks in 2024 and none of them were good [Deshaun Watson (7 games), Joe Flacco (6 games), Dorian Thompson-Robinson (3 games), Bailey Zappe (1 game)]. I would expect it isn't the easiest thing for a receiver to adjust to 4 different QBs in one season. And 2023 wasn't any better from a QB standpoint. In 2023, 5 QBs started for the Browns: Watson (6 games), Flacco (5 games), Dorian T-R (3 games), P.J. Walker (2 games), and Jeff Drskell (1 game). So, again, not only were his QBs bad, but for 2 years it was a constant rotation of 6 different QBs. Alex Van Pelt was his offensive coordinator. How about 2022 with the Jets? Yep, once again, 4 different starting QBs. Wilson (9 games), Flacco (4 games), Mike White (4 games), Chris Steveler (1 game). How about 2021: Yep, 4 different QBs again. Wilson (13 games), Flacco (1 game), Mike White (3 games), Josh Johnson (did not have a start, but played in 3 games). Honestly, how many WRs are going to thrive in that situation? Your first 4 years in the league: 2 teams, 3 offensive coordinators, and 10 different QBs throwing the ball to you. It means in your first 68 games, your QB changed at least 14 different times (probably more if guys were say in and out with injuries or whatever). That's a different QB (at least) every 4.8 games on average. And that also leads me to player development. The Jets are obviously horrible at player development, as are the Browns. So, how much proper teaching/training did he actually get, etc. Plus, 3 of those 4 years he was learning a new offense, plus all of the QB turnover. Never having one guy to settle in with. The Bills happen to actually be very good at player development. So, maybe they can help him raise his game (in a more stable environment). And I don't expect him to go off and have some crazy year or anything (I mean, he's WR5, how much do you actually expect of your 5th receiver). But, I also think that it's crazy not to believe that having Josh (and only Josh) throwing him the ball instead of the myriad of ever-changing garbage QBs he's had won't improve his game (even if his overall numbers aren't big due to number of targets in our offense). To be fair here, I have not watched a lot of Elijah Moore's games, etc. So, the naysayers may be right. I just find it hard, like others, to think that a young player who has probably had very little positive development, was with horrible organizations, and had a carousel of bad QBs constantly rotating doesn't still have room to grow and improve. I think it's a bit unfair to write his career off after just 4 years, with the circumstances he's faced (even if some of it was self-inflicted---if say he forced his way out of NY or whatever). He may never be a star, but I'm not sure how some posters can be so positive that he can't continue to improve or become at least a viable 5th option/injury fill in. I mean, I don't love his career catch percentage (or the ypc last year)...but I'm optimistic with our staff and Josh throwing him the ball that he can continue to get better as a player...and maybe reach some of his potential. For the naysayers, do you really think that the circumstances of his early career might not have stunted or affected his growth/development at all? Do you really think he has no room for growth as just a 5th year guy (25 years old)? Do you really think that the Bills organization and having Josh as your QB might not make him a better player (considering where he is coming from)? I'm willing to give him a chance to show us that he's better than what he's shown so far and that he still has room for growth/improvement.

Beane is really putting his money where his mouth is when it come to the philosophy of drafting, grooming, and resigning your own. All 10 of the players listed below were either Bills' draft picks or signed with the Bills as UDFAs their rookie year. Great examples for the locker room about what happens if you put the work and dedication in. Extended - 1. Allen (6 years 330 Million - 250 guaranteed) - 2025 cap hit 36,335,281 2. Rousseau (4 years 80 million - 54 guaranteed) - cap savings 8 million, cap hit 2025 5,877,000 3. Benard (4 years 50 million - 25.2 guaranteed) - 2025 cap hit 2,528,248 4. Shakir (4 years 60.2 million - 32 guaranteed) - 2025 cap hit 2,586,787 5. Benford (4 years 69 million - 37.6 guaranteed) - 2025 cap hit 2,648,569 Re-signed 1) Van Denmark OT - 1 yr 1.03 million 2) Anderson OL - 1 yr 1.03 million 3) Ferguson LS - 4 years 6.5 million (2.365 guaranteed - 2025 cap hit 1,557,500) 5) Gilliam FB - 1 yr - 1,337,5000 6) Hamlin S - 1 yr - 1,337,500