Zerovoltz

I don't suppose this head to head comparison of each of these guys 1st 2 NFL seasons means anything to anyone here. I threw in Vick because unlike the other QB on this list, Allen is a weapon as a runner, and his running stats thus far are practically equal to Vick in his first 2 NFL seasons. It is remarkable that Vick and Allen also have nearly the same completions and attempts on a per game basis through a similar number of games at this point in their careers. Would you be happy if Allen had a VICK like career? Per Game Passing Rushing Rk Player From To Cmp Att Yds TD Int Sk Yds Att Yds TD 1 Josh Allen 2018 2018 12.6 23.9 152.9 0.6 0.9 2.9 22.6 7.1 48.6 0.5 2 Jim Kelly* 1986 1987 19.1 32.1 228.3 1.5 1.0 2.5 20.3 2.5 11.9 0.0 3 J.P. Losman 2004 2005 8.9 17.9 105.5 0.6 0.7 2.1 15.2 2.5 13.0 0.0 4 EJ Manuel 2013 2017 11.4 19.7 125.6 0.7 0.5 1.6 9.9 3.2 11.3 0.1 5 Michael Vick 2001 2002 12.2 23.2 161.8 0.8 0.5 2.3 13.9 6.3 46.3 0.

These same variables apply to every QB do they not? If we can’t apply any measurable metrics to a qb then what can we apply?

What numbers would you like to use to measure his progress as a passer and how much time do you think is enough to see results?

I’m giving those guys as examples of prospects who “just needed to be more accurate”. Allen is an incredible prospect. More gifted than those guys. The comparison is that NFL people and fans thought it was just a matter of more time more reps and more coaching and the accuracy, passing efficiency, was going to happen, like a forgone conclusion. most of the fans on this board speak of Allen exactly this same way. More time more reps and better supporting cast has been the failing formula to improve accuracy for decades. Many here seem to think success is right around the corner.

.....the argument that The difference between Allen being a 60% thrower and a 55% thrower is 1.5 passes completed if he attempts 30 passes. This is is mathematically correct but you can apply this to every QB. Somehow others manage to consistently complete at a higher pct despite also having to throw a ball away, have the receiver drop the pass etc. quarterbacks not not named Josh Allen have higher completion pct with the same group. my point remains. Allen is an incredible prospect with lots of gifts and talent and he has a very substantial set of data to look at that suggests he isn’t accurate and that it is far from a given he ever will be. My point isn’t that I think Allen is awful or that I think he can’t improve or that given better supporting cast improvement can’t happen. It is not a given. Another example of a guy with a great arm, gifts etc was Kyle Boler. A guy coaches thought wasn’t accurate due to supporting cast at college and who they could coach up and surround with talent and fix him. There are a lot of Kyle Bolers. Accuracy, efficiency whatever you want to call it... but it is HARD to teach. Making quick reads, and then the proper pass don’t tend to be things that can be improved much of at all by coaching or better players around. ive said in many other threads here that given his incredible natural gifts and his football upbringing he is worthwhile. I can buy the argument that he was a farm kid that never was coached up as a kid, as a high school player or in college.... its not a given and if Allen does develop into a legit franchise QB he will have beaten long odds and the Bills leadership will deserve to be praised as geniuses.

This is fair. Clearly I am not doing a good job of making my argument. The Tebow comparison I tried to make wasn’t about Allen and Tebow being the same guy, but was an attempt to make my original and only point here wich is that Accuracy way more often than not, doesn’t just happen, many very good prospects, with good coaching often fail to improve this vital skill. My whole point is that many many posters here, when talking about Allen, are dismissive of his lack of accuracy and explain it away like it’s simply a matter of time and is bound to happen. If there were several past cases I’d this happening then it would be something to be assumed and dismissive about. The past suggests that in fact accuracy is very difficult to improve and for a good many humans, is something you are born with or not. I am not taking anything away from the raw prospect he is. He is a tremendous prospect. I would be excited at this point if I were a bulls fan to see if he can get better because he shows so much of what you want a QB to be. That said it is not a given he’ll ever be consistently accurate enough to be a franchise type QB and any analysis that involves just assuming some linear improvement. The accuracy is is a concern and a problem. It was on draft day and it still is.

I agree Allen goes downfield more often than many QB do....and having watched Alex Smith for years...I agree, high completion PCT isn't the be all end all for accuracy. Smith comleted a TON of short easy passes. Accuracy is more than completion PCT....as stated by others here. .....So, even given all this....isn't it worth asking then, if you KNOW Allen can only complete "X" pct of deeper passes and you believe he'd complete more if you called a screen or slant or two...wouldn't someone in all this time, figured out that it was worthwhile to call a short pass for the guy here and there? .....what good does it do to throw it farther downfield if you don't complete those? Certainly he doesn't connect often enough to justify doing it as much as he does....he doesn't throw TD's at a high enough rate to justify it....he has a high turnover rate that might go down....wouldn't it be optimal to have him throw shorter more often?

Why did the two QB under Coach Bohl, who were before Allen have signifigantly higher completion pcts?

.....so that kind of leads me back to my point to begin with...if Allen is destined to be accurate...why wasn't anyone able to fix him in HS? in JUCO? At Wyoming (where he had the same coaches as Carson Wentz) ? It's not just going to suddenly happen....and I don't know how you make it happen or what coach you need etc..or maybe the right cast....If it were easy, if were bound to happen....it would happen a lot more often than it does for other talented athletes...like a Vick etc etc.

I agree....it has happend...it can happen...but it isn't typical...it isn't usual...the numbers were all over the place at draft time about college QB who had poor accuracy in college almost never improved much or at all in the pros. From what I have seen...and what I have read...Allen is every bit the guy the scouting reports said...and he has a LONG way to go to be consistanly accurate. ...that doesn't mean I am saying he sucks...it doesn't mean I am saying he isn't worth developing....quite the opposite...I'm just saying that improving accuracy is HARD TO DO and that it doesn't just happen because over time the switch just goes on....we'll know when he strings 4 games or better of 60% plus if he's getting there or not.

I absolutely do! I agree....very very very RAW....he's supposed to take time. You guys are all arguing at me like I am telling you it can't happen. I HOPE IT DOES! .....I am pointing out that a good many of you folks here speak about Allens accuracy issue like it will just get better as time passes...as he has more reps...if his supporting cast is better...ETC ETC.....when I bring up Tebow...I do so to demonstrate that everything they ever tried to fix his accuracy never worked...he got reps, he got coaching, he had a good supporting cast and a good defense....I am rooting for Allen to do it....I think the task at hand is DIFFICULT. Improving accuracy is hard...and big improvements from college to pros are not typical. My gripe, my point is that MANY posters kind of just write it off like it's bound to be better as he gets more reps, time passes, etc....it is not inevitable...it will be Allen overcoming the the odds, and beating back conventional wisdom IF he gets better......A lot of rookie QB's come in and struggle...but a good many of them had demonstrated accuracy in College....Baker Mayfiled had a horrible day today...he was a 71% thrower in college...it is reasonable to expect he;ll be accurate in the pros....he has demonstrated accuracy over a long period of time...it is reasonable to expect he will develop into an accurate NFL QB (that doesn't mean he will, but he's shown accuracy and shown that he has progressed in being more accurate as time passed)

IF Tebow were accurate he would be a star.....that's the thing that bothers me...No one could make Tebow more accurate...he didn't have it in him...and he had Baby Hoodie coaching him. Improving accuracy is not a given...it's much more likely that it doesn't improve.....If you could take a guy whose problem is accuracy and fix it....then guys like Lamar Jackson and Mike Vick would have been all time greats.

Let me try this AGAIN. I like ALLEN. I am amused, intrigued...what have you....that so many of you are quick to look at Allens accuracy is some minor detail that just needs cleaned up. My point is that accuracy is a MAJOR component of a QB's game...perhaps the most important part. I hope he does. I harbor no ill will toward teh Bills, the players, the fans etc. I think I were a Bills fan, I would be very cautiously optimistic about Allen....because of the accuracy and not just casually throwing out statements like "with a little more time, his accuracy will be better" If he just had a few better pieces, his accuaracy will be better....etc.

No. My name is gary. I am not magic.

Of course you do! Cam is a career 60 PCT passer thus far ....although having an above career year in that stat so far this season. .....if you get ALLEN to 60, 61, 62...You will have WON that draft pick. (also assuing the INTS are limited to something reasonable) He isn't there yet...and 60 would be a remarkable improvement over his college numbers....

Both big build, good runners, charismatic, winners, scouting reports concered about accuracy at pro level. Completion PCT, TD's INTS, comparable...Allen better comp % by a little bit...but Tebow more TD and less INTS ....still pretty close. Both had very good defenses to help them. Allen certainly has the better raw arm.

No...they would appear to have quite a bit in common at this point. What is an acceptable completion PCT for Allen?

Its not unreasonable. Which part of that comparison doesn't match up in your opinion?

I think some of you are taking my comments the wrong way. I'm not saying Allen is bad etc...I like the guy...he is fun to watch. All I am taking issue with is that many on this board use phrases like "he just needs to fix his accuracy" and he's a star. ....It's almost like it's a forgone conclusion here that Allen is going to improve his accuracy because it's a matter of just doing it.....I think that is A LOT to assume.....it's the whole reason he wasn't some Andrew Luck type prospect....you can't just wish it away. I hope he does improve....He's an intriguing prospect....a great gamble by the Bills to see if in fact the accuracy can be increased...

You have me confused with someone else. I have NEVER EVER said anything about Peterman being good, ok, etc.

I agree Allen is very talented. Great build...great athlete...great runner...super strong arm...leader...etc....he isn't accurate. He never has been. This isn't some brilliant observation on my part....all I am saying is that accuracy is the toughest skill to have, to improve, to work on....it's just odd to me, that so many poeple think this is an "easy" fix..."just" need to fix his accuracy. he "just" needs some better supporting cast (even though others seem to be able to perform with this group)

The QB's you quoted earlier especially Montana....had like 20 attempts his first year... ....anyhow...Steve Young was 65 % passer in college. He was a 65% passer in the pros. Aikman was a 63% passer in College and a 61% passer in the pros. Trubisky was a 67% completion thrower in college.....I don't understand your point...All these guys were accurate passers who were also accurate in the pros...They all progressed (except Trubs who only played one year) while in college. They were the passers everyone thought they were. Allen is the passer everyone thought he was.

This would be a valid argument EXCEPT other lesser QB's have signifigantly better numbers throwing to the same guys.

I am all on board with the idea Allen is a rookie. WE all expect issues, problems...etc. What I would be worried about is the lack of progression in college....even at that level, pick any QB you want...there is almost always a couple pct point improvement year over year at that level as guys get used to the college game etc....Allen didn't show that....I've seen the argument he had a way better roster the year before his last college season.....I would worry about it if he gets to the end of this year with a sub 55% for the year. That isn't getting it done in this era.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. In the case of Flacco and Jackson, Flacco is completing just over 61 pct of his passes...that is right on what his career completion pct is.....and with the same folks Jackson is completing less. .....In Allens case...Barkley, Peterman and Anderson have all completed at a higher rate then Allen....with the same people. How many more points of completion pct do you suppose Allen can achieve with a "better cast"? It's a question worth asking.