Zerovoltz

If I were a Bills fan, I would also be encouraged by what he has shown so far....because it was what is supposed to be good....the scouting report so far has been right...he looks great in practice...and he's looked pretty good in preseason. He is supposed to shine in these situations.

All I am saying is the scouting report says Allen has physical gifts, and that he struggles under pressure and doesn't make good reads. So far the situations he has been in, favor him being able to showcase his known good qualities...his arm, body, etc....and have not been situations that would do much to test his percieved weaknesses...making reads...working under pressure.

I'm certainly not trying to say Allen = Leaf. My point is that the optimism is based on PRESEASON games. Lot's of awful NFL players have looked good in preseason games when really you are just running a scrimmage on TV......and lots of really good players, have looked bad, shaky, etc.

Here’s another account of his first night: Leaf’s first pre-season start was much better than the man selected one spot before him in the 1998 draft: But that was just one game. Manning and Leaf met head-to-head in the regular season dress rehearsal known as week three of the preseason:

No.

All well and good...but here read this. Here’s another account of his first night: Leaf’s first pre-season start was much better than the man selected one spot before him in the 1998 draft: But that was just one game. Manning and Leaf met head-to-head in the regular season dress rehearsal known as week three of the preseason:

Been fun watching the Josh Allen experience you have going on. I've been on record from the beginning saying the kid wouldn't succeed. I haven't changed my mind about that. Of all the QB situations where there is a high rookie pick, Buffalo is the one where the kid you drafted was pretty much the best QB on the roster the second his name was called at the draft. Besides being on record about Allen, I am also quoted throughout this place saying McCarron and Peterson are known commodities of below average nobodies. I still hope Allen succeeds. I can't help but think that every fan base is too critical or too optimistic about pre season football. I think this applies to Allen as well. No one is game planning against him. He is known to have a hard time with making reads. He is known to struggle under pressure. The kid has a great arm...everyone knew it from the beginning. He can really sling that ball...and there will be some times when that arm overcomes a bad read etc... I will remain skeptical of Allen until I have seen him perform against a D that is actually playing their scheme with their starters, gameplanning and all that. Ryan Leaf had some incredible pre seasons....articles were written about how the Colts had screwed up the pick...all based on a few preseason games. Be Wary.

If I were the Bills, I would offer my 1 and other stuff to try and get Mack. He is not averse to cold weather, he likes Buffalo, and he is a proven great player, AND you have the cap room for it. IF you can get him, you do it. That said, the Packers are in win now mode, and they are the only team as of right now with 2 1st round picks in the 2019 draft. They may be inclined to offer up both of those for Mack...(I'd do it)

I have Arizona in a surprise. The Rams are obviously loaded with talent..but they are about to have a locker room full of guys that didn't get paid after having been there a while and guys who just walked through the door and got paid. I have them finishing second due to internal turmoil. Arizona still has enough talent to compete and EITHER with a healthy Bradford or Rosen, has a QB to compete. The other part of this equation is that I think the other 2 teams in the diviosn, Seattle and San Fran, are not good. I do not think Jimmy G is a franchise type QB....reminds me quite a bit of Matt Cassel. Seattle has a lame duck coach with a further declining D, and a horrible O-line.

Let me preface this by saying...it is CAMP....we don't know what they are working on, what drill they are doing, what skill they might be working on....we don't know if the coach said the ball MUST go here on this drill or if the D knows the play or not....CONTEXT is very important on these things....and even then...we are talking about CAMP. Preaseaon games when the bullets are not scripted by coaches on your own team and you are matching up and doing some things....is a little better indicator...anyhow....from Chiefs camp today... One of the picks came after Mahomes drew a defender offsides and had a free play. The defender had a free shot at him, so Mahomes (knowing he had a free play) forced the throw rather than taking a sack, knowing it was win/win. That's not a bad play by the QB at all.Another pick came on the goal line with Mahomes rolling right. He had a very, very easy path to the goal line (I mean he literally could have walked in) but, as he explained after, since the QB can't be tackled he figured he would just try to throw it in regardless. He stated after practice that he would run that in during a game. So this isn't a play that would literally ever happen in a real game.The third pick was a mistaken communication that Mahomes said was his fault for calling the wrong play. That's on him. Yes...Gunner Bill...I agree with that...especially about Fuller....I just can't get my head around Watson yet....he played really great in the New England and Seattle games..but had alot of good garbage stats as well.......I guess I just can't make up my mind on him yet. I would like to have seen a full season of him since he seemed to be super good at times then not so much at others...(maybe I am just over complicating that he was a rookie and inconsistancy is to be expected?) .....I tend to think that most of the time, after that much of a sample, I can make a decent evaluation .....Watson vexes me.....can't wait for the season to start....So many teams with new generation of QB's ....

yep .....I am really looking forward to seeing Allen in the preseason....just so difficult to get any kind of good read on a guy in camp/practice etc....

He had 3 fumbles...but yeah...on pace for 43 TD.....really interesting to see how that plays out......he had 5 TD throwing VS KC last year....but basically 1 (or maybe 2) of those happend when it was still a game....3 for sure were just garbage time stat padding type of scores...in their game against the Titans..already leading 30-14 in the 4th Q...he threw 3 more TD....They all count..but I'm not sure the stat sheet tells the whole story. (as it often doesn't for many players, situations and games.)

You may be entirely right or wrong about Mahomes, Garrapolo...etc....I do kind of smirk at the love DeSahun Watson gets.....he put up some big TD numbers....and good for him...but he was also on pace for 30 Turnovers....given that a good portion of his his long TD plays were of the catch and run variety and not so much the long awesome throw type...he might not seem so awesome.....agian....we'll have to wait and see...but it's as if people discount the fact he had so many turnovers...

I'm here. My thoughts on Mahomes haven't changed because of this. We expect Mahomes to throw some INTS...he'll take chances that Alex Smith simply will not. He'll rely on his arm and make throws at times that he shouldn't make. That's fine...that's part of the deal. He is never ever going to have a 5 INT season like Alex Smith....very few QB's do. I've said it plenty of times before when discussing Mahomes and Smith...Smith was a good QB who was especially careful. He made it a point to take care of the football. That isn't a bad tihng in and of itself...but Smith's QB rating drops from the first quarter to the last, and his red zone efficiency is HORRIBLE. This isn't because Smith is an awful QB, it's because he is a very safe one. At some point, Smith figured out that you can do well by not turning over the football. .....what Smith does that you can't see on a stat sheet very easily is taking a 3rd and 8 and rushing for 3 yards instead of making a play to move the sticks, keep the ball, and the clock and score more points. I will trade the 5 INTS for 15 Mahomes INTS if Mahomes makes 30 plays to score points or extend drives that Smith did not make If you read that article and consider that panic worthy, then you are reading into that what you want it to tell you and not what it's actually saying. How many is an acceptable number in a practice? How many do we know the defense did or didn't know the play call? How many were the QB actually making a mistake? Looking forward to preseason game action...

...um...North Dakota State plays in an indoor stadium. The argument about Allen is this: Given his physical tools and mental makeup, either A) he really does suck because we have a BIG SAMPLE size that says he does. or B) He has sucked so far because in his youth and college years, he never was around good coaching or other players that would push his development along and he won't suck anymore after he gets good coaching and has teammates and opponents who are better quality. That's it. I love metrics...I think metrics are really useful.....but it doesn't take advanced metrics to tell any reasonable person that Josh Allen's actual performance in football has been poor. That includes the Bills staff. The Bills staff believes the answer is B....because you don't take him if you think it's A....and you also don't take him even if you believe it's B, but you aren't sure you can fix him. They think he's undercoaced and underdeveloped. I don't think they can do it. I would only say, in this case, where you may actually have a guy with a ton of talent, who just hasn't been developed properly for years...that could be something the analytics would miss because the analytics are analyzing high level football players, and makes no assumptions where they came from or how much football they played where, or against who. This is where you'd not rely on a number spit out by a formula...but a human judgement. Again..I don't think it will end well, but I can see a case here about why the analytic numbers may not apply.

I also thought the Giants made a mistake passing on QB this year...and that Manning is toast...they made some investments in their line and Barkely betting he has something left...we'll see. Denver is an interesting situation....I think they'll be caught in between thinking he is the man to not really being good enough, but too good to move on from....even though they probably should. JAX......They did sign him to that extension...but they can easily get out of it....they basically bought themselves another season or 2 of figuring out if he can or can't. He's probably going to last as long as that D is good and they can run the ball I'd think. Washington...will need a guy in a year or two to start preparing to take over..but I don't think they will need that after this year. Miami....Tannehill quietly signed an extension....he's an interesting case..was having something of a breakout year when he got hurt...really had that completion pct up there at 67%...now has injury history....you are probably right...he has to show big this year..and probalby wont. Pats, Saints...need to find someone to groom. Tampa may be the one team that ends up truly needing to find a new no.1 to start over with. Titans....I think Mariotta isn't very good..but in his defense, their weapons have been lower end....and I don't think internally they consider him a bust. Cincy....this is one where I would have been in that derby in this past draft...Dalton isn't that good...at least not consistantly enough.

I don't know what the Bills would want or need...but I do think a few things are worth noting here for 2019. 1. This upcoming offseason may well be the most stable all 32 franchises have ever colectively been at QB...with this past season free agency and QB rich draft...I can't think of a team that would even really need top of the draft QB....New England might look for Bradys eventual replacement....in a year when so few other team would be in the market, they once again can zig when everyone else is zagging.......New Orleans..and maybe the Chargers could be in market for their teams future QBs.....throw the Giants in there as well...but in those cases..they are talented teams and those guys are still producing....otherwise...maybe Tampa if they decide they are done with Jameis....is about it really. 2. Part of the big push in this past draft year to nab that QB...was that 2019 has long been shaping up to be a poor QB draft year.....Drew Lock is the early leader, and he needs lots of work. So, should the Bills find themselve up high or even at no.1.....they may find their pick to have lesser value than 2018 no.1 had....more like 2013...a year with no QB prospects worthwhile.

.....you keep suggesting Mahomes will be a bust but this is a huge part of his game....getting a ball to the target like a lazer. The writer didn't really think this through....the evidence that Allen would be great are his combine measurables...wich are optimal for an NFL QB....that alone got the guy drafted 7th overall....the size, arm, wonderlic...GREAT STUFF.....and all of it is evidence that points to the idea the kid could be successful. What he, and pretty much anyone should be saying isn't that there are serious questions about why that has not translated very well to onfield results.....that's been the question since pre draft....who is Josh Allen? Another in a long line of perfect size, arm strength etc that just couldn't make it happen....OR....is he that perfect specimen who came from a small nowhere high school, to a small no where JUCO..to a small D-1 program...and never ever did get coaching or play around the kind of up and coming talent to grow his skill set with? I've been on record all over this forum saying I don't think he will make it...but I have always maintained that HE COULD if you believe the scouting reports and your own coahces.....and that goes right along with who they think they got...the super talented kid that never did have the proper environment to reach his potential. I'd hate to use a soccer analogy, but in that world...it's often said of american players...in order to develop to the fullest and take their game to the next level, they need to go play in Europe, around better players and better coaching. Someone had mentioned the QBASE metric that suggests Allen will fail....because all 27 other QB's who ever had negative QBase like Allen, also failed...that poster correctly pointed out doesn't mean ever QB who ever scores that low will fail.....because it is a metric...and it doesn't know if Allen really is this star talent that just hasn't been put in position to grow. learn and improve with the right conditions etc. Frankly, its an incredible gamble and very interesting to see how it works out.... I disagree this would be a victory for the "old school" ...but rather this WOULD be a victory for folks who really did identify a talented kid and realised that he was FAR FAR off from his actual potential.......other prototypical QB's who failed, came to the leauge much more developed and polished...having played in higher level programs from youth onward. Again, I don't think he'll make it...BUT....I'm very willing to believe that he COULD....I do think there is something to the idea that his developmental years were not well spent on football development and there is a lot of room there to be couched up, unlike so many other prospects. Should be interesting.

I think we've about talked this out as far as it can go.....can't wait to see how he looks in preseason to get a better idea where he's at.

IF they thought he was on the verge of starting, he wouldn't be running with the 3's. .....Actions speak louder than words...when he is running with the 1's at least half the time in practice etc...that will tell you what they think. ....they can tell a media person all they want about how he "isn't raw" or "further along than the scouting reports suggested" .....ALL these statements the staff is making are subjective....you can't quantify any of that....you can quantify what unit he is running with...the 1's, 2's, or 3s. I'll try this one more time....if McCarron reaches his full potential right now...and the best he can ever be is a "5"....and he's at a 4-5 right now..then he is as READY as he'll ever be. He can't improve through more film study or practice...he is what he is right now. ......and the coaches start him while the work on getting allen READY....and his ceiling is 8,9,10...but he's at a 5.5....that would mean he is still the "best" QB on the roster, but he isn't ready in the coaches estimation. Before putting him on an NFL field, with your suspect line and not dynamic skill players....they might want to build him up to a level 6-7-8 away from game action. I think we probably agree Allen is already the best QB on the roster right now....it's a matter of what we think the coaches determine the criteria to start is. I continue to contend that there is a lot of work to do....especially as that pertains to calling the correct audible, making a correct read, and an accurate throw. When they think he has made progress you'll know when he moves up and runs with the 2's, displacing one of Peterman or McCarron.

We are glad to have Ragland here....he fits what they want him to do wich is mostly be a run stuffer....as the season goes on you can really see that he excells at reading the play, getting to the gap, filling, shedding etc...as other here have mentioned, Ragland isn't all that adept at coverage...and that's fine. KC won't ask him to do much of it....for his role etc...now having recovered from the injury and seeing him progress, I'd say we got a good deal....we'll see how it goes this year. Another person mentioned we signed an LB (Hitchens from Dallas) ....that was to replace Derrick Johnson...a great LB in his time..but he was noticibly VERY SLOW.....no longer able to pursue sideline to sideline nor cover like he once did....major liability....loved him as a player but time caught up to him.

We'll have to continue to agree to disagree.......The problem with this most recent argument of yours is that McDermott says "Allen is more developed and further along in some ways than they thought initially".......well that's all well and good except nobody knows what the baseline is for any of that.....it's like calling your friend who is driving to town from Toledo...you call to see how far away they are thinking they ought to be just about to Cleveland, and instead they tell you they've made good time and are at the ohio/penn border....still far away from you, but closer than you thought....we have no idea the criteria they are talking about....has he made to cleveland or has he made it Erie? ....either way, what we KNOW the coach said was he still has a long way to go wich of course is subjective...but what isn't subjective is that the coach says he is not READY. That doesn't say anything about who the best QB on the roster is to start a game if one were played now (It's Allen) To put it another way, lets say there is a set of criteria that McDermot is working on with Allen and all of those have a rating 1-10...10 being fully developed...and overall Allen is at a 5 right now...but before he puts the kid on the field he wants to see level 7 and 8 in practice....even though McCarron is at 4 right now and Peterman is at 3. Allen is the best QB on the roster....but he isn't READY....if you have 3 qbs who all aren't ready...why not build up the actual future of the franchise and get him actually ready and burn up the expendable scrubs until he is? ....that's what is going to happen. The other 2 don't have big enough arms to overcome their lack of experience and wisdom. I expect Allen will see the field when they think he is READY....not when the other 2 prove they aren't.

This is the approach I have been advocating the whole time...the wording here is important....."We're not going to put him out there unless we feel like he's READY and that's the important part of this, that we develop a nice foundation of strong fundamentals and football knowledge so that he can go out there and execute." He did not say we are going to put him out there when he is BETTER THAN THE OTHER GUYS. He most likely already IS better than them. This quote shows your coaching staffs thoughts are right in line with the pre draft scouting report that said he'd need work to improve his fundamentals and football knowledge. .....again, I am normally an advocate of getting a guy on the field ASAP, but in this case, I agree with the scouting reports...and your coaches.

THIS.....is absolutely correct. Think of the best DB of all time...you pick...Darrel Green, Ronnie Lott, Dieon Sanders......doesn't matter..pick that guy....then think of what QB you could expect to get in a trade for one of those guys.....Aaron Rodgers...no....how far down the list of QBs would you get before some team would say....yeah...Ok...we'll take your stud DB for our QB......you'd get pretty damn far down the list.....and you certainly couldn't get Mahomes for White. or White and any combo of players and picks.

You absolutely could...but they'd miss YOUR training camp.....wich isn't a real big deal...and I would guess, that we are talking 6th or 7th round type compensation either way. Someone mentioned Tevin Coleman, and I have seen that name elsewhere on this board....he'd be a great aquisition if you could land him......would take something good to get them to move on from him now considering he is really good proven depth.