barbwire Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 News 4 Sports spoke to Schonert by phone Friday afternoon. He says he was informed about Jauron's decision during a Friday morning meeting. And he talked about the serious philosophical differences he had with Jauron about the Bills offense. "He (Jauron) told me the offense wasn't simple enough for him," Schonert said. "We had too many formations, too many plays. I didn't simplify it to his liking." "He wants a 'Pop Warner' offense," Schonert said, referring to the Bills head coach. "He limited me in formations, and limited me in plays. He's been on my back all offseason. http://www.wivb.com/dpp/sports/bills_and_n...honert_20090904 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rackemrack Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 wouldn't surprise me if thats true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOBILLS78 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Wow, that's pretty insightful. Contradicts what Jauron says, in a way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbwire Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 Last year... teams figured out our (5 plays)and were sitting on them at the snap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 If this is true, and I'm highly skeptical (not of the original poster, but of Turk's own recount of his dismissal -- everyone ALWAYS spins the story when they get canned), then Juaron shouldn't be allowed to coach High School let alone in the NFL. I really doubt this ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lets_go_bills Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Not surprised. Schonert isn't a genius OC but Jauron made him the fall guy. Jauron is vanilla, conservative and just plain retarded. Jauron is an idiot who is a terrible coach, a terrible game manager and a terrible decision maker. I'm so friggin sick of Jauron. We have a young, talented roster that's just loaded with potential for great things. We need a real coach who can put it all together and utilize the immense talent we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Last year... teams figured out our (5 plays)and were sitting on them at the snap Actually, it doesn't necessarily mean few plays. But fewer formations would be a great idea, IMO. Part of the Bills predictability is they have different formation and personnel packages for too many plays. You see the FB come in, its a run. You see Reed motion to the tackle, its a run. 3 and 2, shotgun, its a pass; and so. I think fewer formations and substitutions would actually help our offense quite a bit. I think a case could also be made that with a young QB, young TEs, young RBs, young OL; fewer plays could be beneficial as well. As I stated in the other thread, I think few plays that are run well could help this team finally build an identity and be better than a lot of plays run poorly. While we're on it... I'd simply Trent's reads as well. Give him 2 reads per pass. Drop make look at 1 look at 2 throw. Simple and fast. If both reads are covered, throw it away or take off running. Sometimes it seems to me he spends too much time trying to go through is reads and he doesn't have 5-6 seconds with this line to scan the field for the best option. He needs to drop back and just hit the 1st or 2nd option in 3 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'64 Bills Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Not surprised. Schonert isn't a genius OC but Jauron made him the fall guy. Jauron is vanilla, conservative and just plain retarded. Jauron is an idiot who is a terrible coach, a terrible game manager and a terrible decision maker. I'm so friggin sick of Jauron. We have a young, talented roster that's just loaded with potential for great things. We need a real coach who can put it all together and utilize the immense talent we have. I would bet Ralph had something to do with it also - - DJ was scared - -the way they were running a 'no huddle' was dumb! It doesn't speak well for DJ's ability to hire qualified assistants! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omar Little Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Jauron & Schonert both suck. Nobody wins this pissing match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThereIsNoDog Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Schonert's offense was crap. How often would Trent or JP get the play-call in with just seconds before the play clock expired? How often were his schemes deciphered and well-defensed? Maybe it WAS too complicated, especially for Schonert (so you can imagine how it was for the players). Get back to basics. The Patriots won a SB with a simplified offense for Brady in 2001 (among other things ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Who cares whether the offense is simple or complex? The only thing that matters is moving the chains and putting points on the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nero47 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Your job is to provide the boss with what he wants. Make lemonade from lemons. Obviously, it would appear that "what we have here, is a failure to communicate". (Cool Hand Luke) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellDressed Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Pop Warner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Who cares whether the offense is simple or complex? The only thing that matters is moving the chains and putting points on the board. It's not HSFB. Teams watch plenty of tape and know your tendencies before you do, thus the need to be complex and innovative. I've never felt that the names Jauron and Schonert should be included with "innovative." That's why none of DJ's teams have ever been offensive juggernauts. They trend toward the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lofton80 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I think Schonert is probably being accurate. Jauron shows his cards with his FG decisions, totally conservative. To quote another poster "what a mess". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VJ91 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 News 4 Sports spoke to Schonert by phone Friday afternoon. He says he was informed about Jauron's decision during a Friday morning meeting. And he talked about the serious philosophical differences he had with Jauron about the Bills offense. "He (Jauron) told me the offense wasn't simple enough for him," Schonert said. "We had too many formations, too many plays. I didn't simplify it to his liking." "He wants a 'Pop Warner' offense," Schonert said, referring to the Bills head coach. "He limited me in formations, and limited me in plays. He's been on my back all offseason. http://www.wivb.com/dpp/sports/bills_and_n...honert_20090904 Very stupid of Schoenert to open up against DJ like that. His openness to speak his mind is refreshing to us fans and the media, but it may screw him getting another job as OC or even QC for another NFL team. Besides, I agree with DJ if Schoenert speaks the truth, anway. How many guys to you need to put in motion, and how many different formations do you have to implement in order for your QB to throw 4 yard passes all over the place? I hope AVP does simplify things down, and allows Edwards to look down the field faster and get the ball into his wide recievers hands more often. Turk-ey's offense reminded me of other OC's that have worked here before him the past 10 years. With all of them it was always about his "packages", and multiple formations, and knowing your "reads" and assignements, and giving the QB 18 freakin' check down options on every stupid pass play. Does anybody remember that Jimbo called all of about 5 different plays during an entire No-Huddle game, in which his Bills usually blew out their opponents up and down the damn field? That's right. Kelly simply changed formations and put his tight end on different sides depending on down and distance, but his entire "arsenal" of "schemes, packages and reads consisted of about 4 to 6 different play calls.....for an entire football game. Ok, Ok, of course these Bills are pathetic compared to the athletes Kelly had on the field helping him run those few plays to perfection. But my point still has meritt. The simpler, the better, for young Edwards, young tight end Nelson, young linemen Wood, Levitre and quite possibly Bell. Who knows, maybe dumbing things down is exactly what this group of young veterans and old pros needs to rack up some points and yardage?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Ah jeez... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Actually, it doesn't necessarily mean few plays. But fewer formations would be a great idea, IMO. Part of the Bills predictability is they have different formation and personnel packages for too many plays. You see the FB come in, its a run. You see Reed motion to the tackle, its a run. 3 and 2, shotgun, its a pass; and so. I think fewer formations and substitutions would actually help our offense quite a bit. I think a case could also be made that with a young QB, young TEs, young RBs, young OL; fewer plays could be beneficial as well. As I stated in the other thread, I think few plays that are run well could help this team finally build an identity and be better than a lot of plays run poorly. While we're on it... I'd simply Trent's reads as well. Give him 2 reads per pass. Drop make look at 1 look at 2 throw. Simple and fast. If both reads are covered, throw it away or take off running. Sometimes it seems to me he spends too much time trying to go through is reads and he doesn't have 5-6 seconds with this line to scan the field for the best option. He needs to drop back and just hit the 1st or 2nd option in 3 seconds. I think what you are saying is, the Bills telegraph their plays, with their formations (and personnel, at times). I would actually like to see the Bills run their basic plays out of many different formations, so the opposing D wouldn't be aware of what was called. Fewer plays (that they can run with confidence) but out of different formations and personnel packages, would be my preference. And I agree they have to build an identity. One of the reasons I would like a coach like Cohwer is, I suspect he would build a smash-mouth team, like the Steelers. That is the kind of team the Bills should be emulating, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartacus Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 If this is true, and I'm highly skeptical (not of the original poster, but of Turk's own recount of his dismissal -- everyone ALWAYS spins the story when they get canned), then Juaron shouldn't be allowed to coach High School let alone in the NFL. I really doubt this ... why ? because Dick has been so successful with the multitude of OCs that have tried to implement an offense to his specs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoner7 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I believe it 100% How else do you exlplain the offensive dull-ness on every team Jauron has coached... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChimp Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Does anybody remember that Jimbo called all of about 5 different plays during an entire No-Huddle game, in which his Bills usually blew out their opponents up and down the damn field? That's right. Kelly simply changed formations and put his tight end on different sides depending on down and distance, but his entire "arsenal" of "schemes, packages and reads consisted of about 4 to 6 different play calls.....for an entire football game. BINGOBANGOBOINGO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 If Schonert is dead on then DJ will not last for long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartacus Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Very stupid of Schoenert to open up against DJ like that. His openness to speak his mind is refreshing to us fans and the media, but it may screw him getting another job as OC or even QC for another NFL team. Besides, I agree with DJ if Schoenert speaks the truth, anway. How many guys to you need to put in motion, and how many different formations do you have to implement in order for your QB to throw 4 yard passes all over the place? I hope AVP does simplify things down, and allows Edwards to look down the field faster and get the ball into his wide recievers hands more often. Turk-ey's offense reminded me of other OC's that have worked here before him the past 10 years. With all of them it was always about his "packages", and multiple formations, and knowing your "reads" and assignements, and giving the QB 18 freakin' check down options on every stupid pass play. Does anybody remember that Jimbo called all of about 5 different plays during an entire No-Huddle game, in which his Bills usually blew out their opponents up and down the damn field? That's right. Kelly simply changed formations and put his tight end on different sides depending on down and distance, but his entire "arsenal" of "schemes, packages and reads consisted of about 4 to 6 different play calls.....for an entire football game. Ok, Ok, of course these Bills are pathetic compared to the athletes Kelly had on the field helping him run those few plays to perfection. But my point still has meritt. The simpler, the better, for young Edwards, young tight end Nelson, young linemen Wood, Levitre and quite possibly Bell. Who knows, maybe dumbing things down is exactly what this group of young veterans and old pros needs to rack up some points and yardage?? The Kelly Bills were successful with few plays because they perfected their execution thru practice. unfortunately, Dick does not believe in live practice( indoors or outdoors) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 If Jauron did say this to Schonert, then Jauron is smarter then I gave him credit for... You know what the first thing Bill Parcells does when he takes over a team, he limits the offensive formations and throws out about all the offensive plays except for around 15-20 or so. This young team has 2 rookie lineman and has been totally rebuilt, the very last thing they need is to learn a very complex offensive scheme, complex formations and protections. Simplify and be repetitious so these young and new plays will have a chance at competing against some hard nosed experienced vets this season. Cheers to Jauron if he can get the offense going and give Trent Edwards some much needed confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folz Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I'm not totally defending Jauron here...but to me it sounds like everyone knew there was a problem with the offense and something needed to be done, but Schonert was digging in his heels and not wanting to change things. It kind of sounds like he dug his own grave by not being willing to change things up at the request of the head coach no less. according to Gaughan: Besides the results, Schonert rubbed some members of the organization the wrong way by not being as open to their suggestions as they thought he should be, sources within the team said. His connection with quarterback Trent Edwards also was a concern within the team, which also might have been related to Schonert's autocratic style. http://www.buffalonews.com/452/story/784899.html And he (Schonert) talked about the serious philosophical differences he had with Jauron about the Bills offense. "He (Jauron) told me the offense wasn't simple enough for him," Schonert said. "We had too many formations, too many plays. I didn't simplify it to his liking." "He wants a 'Pop Warner' offense," Schonert said, referring to the Bills head coach. "He limited me in formations, and limited me in plays. He's been on my back all offseason. per Tim Graham: The first internal sign of concern became evident earlier this week when receiver Lee Evans said he sought personal reassurance from the coaching staff that the offense would be more productive. "We needed to see something different," Evans said. "We wanted to hear that things were OK." http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4446060 Lee Evans Tweeted this, "I was surprised to hear we fired our O.C. He was a good dude and I learned a lot from him. It changes things but I’m looking forward to working and winning with the new O.C.” – Lee Evans Kawika Mitchell Tweeted, "No. Dick wouldnt do it if it wasnt rite. Its a tuff biz but if ur not producin" http://www.wgr550.com/Sports/5152829 Then there were the candid comments from Trent about the coaching and obviously a lot of frustration from the players. imo, Jauron's biggest detriment as a coach is not his lack of enthusiasm or clock management or what have you, it's the fact that he can never seem to hire a qualified Offensive Coordinator and then sticking with those guys no matter what...maybe with his butt on the line he has finally seen his error...we don't know what we have in AVP yet and I'm sure there will be some growing pains...but its got to be better if everyone is working on the same page rather than fighting and dissention. Coaching is about collaboration...working with the other coaches, listening to your players, etc. I also agree with Dan's post on page 1 that simpler might be better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChimp Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Wow, CBN, I never thought of it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 If Jauron ans Schonert have been having disagreements all summer the why the hell did DJ wait until now to pull the trigger? The situation smacks of a man who is running scared. Hopefully it brings about positive change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I'm not totally defending Jauron here...but to me it sounds like everyone knew there was a problem with the offense and something needed to be done, but Schonert was digging in his heels and not wanting to change things. It kind of sounds like he dug his own grave by not being willing to change things up at the request of the head coach no less. according to Gaughan: Besides the results, Schonert rubbed some members of the organization the wrong way by not being as open to their suggestions as they thought he should be, sources within the team said. His connection with quarterback Trent Edwards also was a concern within the team, which also might have been related to Schonert's autocratic style. http://www.buffalonews.com/452/story/784899.html And he (Schonert) talked about the serious philosophical differences he had with Jauron about the Bills offense. "He (Jauron) told me the offense wasn't simple enough for him," Schonert said. "We had too many formations, too many plays. I didn't simplify it to his liking." "He wants a 'Pop Warner' offense," Schonert said, referring to the Bills head coach. "He limited me in formations, and limited me in plays. He's been on my back all offseason. per Tim Graham: The first internal sign of concern became evident earlier this week when receiver Lee Evans said he sought personal reassurance from the coaching staff that the offense would be more productive. "We needed to see something different," Evans said. "We wanted to hear that things were OK." http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4446060 Lee Evans Tweeted this, "I was surprised to hear we fired our O.C. He was a good dude and I learned a lot from him. It changes things but I’m looking forward to working and winning with the new O.C.” – Lee Evans Kawika Mitchell Tweeted, "No. Dick wouldnt do it if it wasnt rite. Its a tuff biz but if ur not producin" http://www.wgr550.com/Sports/5152829 Then there were the candid comments from Trent about the coaching and obviously a lot of frustration from the players. imo, Jauron's biggest detriment as a coach is not his lack of enthusiasm or clock management or what have you, it's the fact that he can never seem to hire a qualified Offensive Coordinator and then sticking with those guys no matter what...maybe with his butt on the line he has finally seen his error...we don't know what we have in AVP yet and I'm sure there will be some growing pains...but its got to be better if everyone is working on the same page rather than fighting and dissention. Coaching is about collaboration...working with the other coaches, listening to your players, etc. I also agree with Dan's post on page 1 that simpler might be better... From what I've heard his buddy Chris Collinsworth say about Schonert is that he has a huge ego, and what I took from what he had said was, Turks way or the highway... There has to be a logical reason for Trents Edwards decline this pre season, I'm now thinking that Schonert was making everything to complex for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Renko Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Remember that Chiefs game? I recall Edwards saying that the key to their success was that the offense was simple for once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbwire Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 I believe King Conservative Jauron has been overriding the plays. I hope he takes the wraps off of AVP or the firer will be fired soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdBlueNorth Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I am not against a complex offense, BUT you have to have coaches who are great teachers. Especially with the rate of turnover in this league. As far as I am concerned Turk had his opportunity to prove that he could create a productive offense and failed. Simplifying the offense by running more plays out of the same sets, requiring less of a learning curve for the myriad of young players that we have, and giving them a chance to think less and perform more can't be much worse than what we have seen so far. And as for all of his personnel packages, I still thought that the types of plays were more predictable given the packages that were being brought in. I always thought that there was little a team could do to prevent a well executed play, whether it is simple or not. Maybe we will finally give our skill players a chance to win some battles and make plays. Jauron, like in many games we have watched, took too long to make this decision. I don't disagree with the decision, but I also don't think that DJ is capable of turning around this franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sig1Hunter Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 On a positive note: Since there is no film on AVPs playcalling tendencies, doesn't it make it just a wee bit more difficult for the Pats* to gameplan for us? The plan is working to perfection! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vizslafan Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Simple is good. Here is a link to the 1994 Bills historical playbook: http://www.scribd.com/doc/2944874/1994-Buf...fense-Marv-Levy Scroll about halfway down to the 56 play. I read (In Levy's book I think) there were games that they called the 56 or 57 for about half the plays. The opponents knew what was coming but they could not stop it due to excellent execution of a well designed play. I am no football expert but believe that Schoenert had installed some type of West Coast offense. It looked that way on TV - the only drives that we had that went somewhere were a bunch of small gains. BIll Walsh was in Cincy before Schoenert arrived so that is probably his base philosophy. I say good riddance to Schoenert. His sour comments show his level of professionalism. Let AVP install the 56 and 2 or 3 other plays and see how they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 You're not going to fool other professionals on very many snaps. They're pros after all. You have to have a core competence. You have to have an identity. You have to be able to execute something. The Bills starting unit this pre-season has had nothing. OTOH, you have to have enough different competencies at this level to be able to exploit the weaknesses of the defense that you are facing. You aren't going to win running straight at 9 men in the box 50 times a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max997 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 i dont doubt this for a minute...we all knew Jauron was involved in the offense and if you remember how the Bears offense looked in Chicago, how fairchild started out like a real OC then turned into what he did then having Turk basically be the same guy would this really be a surprise you would think by now with 7 losing seasons in 8 that Jauron would realize his thinking about how an offense should be run just doesnt work in the NFL...how the F is this clown still a head coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrell's Toe Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Actually, it doesn't necessarily mean few plays. But fewer formations would be a great idea, IMO. Part of the Bills predictability is they have different formation and personnel packages for too many plays. You see the FB come in, its a run. You see Reed motion to the tackle, its a run. 3 and 2, shotgun, its a pass; and so. I think fewer formations and substitutions would actually help our offense quite a bit. I think a case could also be made that with a young QB, young TEs, young RBs, young OL; fewer plays could be beneficial as well. As I stated in the other thread, I think few plays that are run well could help this team finally build an identity and be better than a lot of plays run poorly. While we're on it... I'd simply Trent's reads as well. Give him 2 reads per pass. Drop make look at 1 look at 2 throw. Simple and fast. If both reads are covered, throw it away or take off running. Sometimes it seems to me he spends too much time trying to go through is reads and he doesn't have 5-6 seconds with this line to scan the field for the best option. He needs to drop back and just hit the 1st or 2nd option in 3 seconds. Simplify his reads....are you serious. Perfect idea, give him two reads per pass. The defense will know this, cover both and Trent will have to check down to Fred for a loss of two because of the pop watner B.S. If that's the case Trent's new nickname should be 'Simple Jack'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJBrown Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 got my new SI mag today.....NFL preview...Dan Patrick talks with Peyton Manning who says they run a very simple offense, sometimes variations of 5-6 plays and dare people to beat them......I am of the "lets simplify and get good at it" philosophy...JMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Duh. Like I've said before, the 2009 season was all but lost once the announcement was made that Jauron would return as head coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Not surprised. Schonert isn't a genius OC but Jauron made him the fall guy. Jauron is vanilla, conservative and just plain retarded. Jauron is an idiot who is a terrible coach, a terrible game manager and a terrible decision maker. I'm so friggin sick of Jauron. We have a young, talented roster that's just loaded with potential for great things. We need a real coach who can put it all together and utilize the immense talent we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Jauron & Schonert both suck. Nobody wins this pissing match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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