For all the Vincent Haters

[34-78-83]

Say what you will about his unspectacular (though solid) play on the field, but Troy is at it again: Local reports say that he spent a ton of time AFTER all the other coaches, trainers, and players left OTA's to work with Witner and Youboty on coverage techniques. Also he spent a lot of time with Roscoe Parish working on getting off of the line better, running routes, and not tipping off plays pre-snap (just like he did with Lee Evans).

 

Cut this guy now!

[BUFFALOTONE]

Say what you will about his unspectacular (though solid) play on the field, but Troy is at it again: Local reports say that he spent a ton of time AFTER all the other coaches, trainers, and players left OTA's to work with Witner and Youboty on coverage techniques. Also he spent a lot of time with Roscoe Parish working on getting off of the line better, running routes, and not tipping off plays pre-snap (just like he did with Lee Evans).

 

Cut this guy now!

708775[/snapback]

 

I do like TV, and I also thin they do not release him this year. Granted he is not the player he once was, but he brings alot of leadership to a defense that sorley needs a kick in the ass.

[OnTheRocks]

he brings alot of leadership

708780[/snapback]

i was thinking today that the offense has NO veteran leadership. if Holcomb gets the startging QB nod, maybe him, but after that, they have no one.

[Dan Gross]

Say what you will about his unspectacular (though solid) play on the field, but Troy is at it again: Local reports say that he spent a ton of time AFTER all the other coaches, trainers, and players left OTA's to work with Witner and Youboty on coverage techniques. Also he spent a lot of time with Roscoe Parish working on getting off of the line better, running routes, and not tipping off plays pre-snap (just like he did with Lee Evans).

 

Cut this guy now!

708775[/snapback]

 

Lazy union bastard. Get him on the first train out of here!

 

Glad you beat me to it. I listened to Hamilton this morning too....

[Ramius]

Say what you will about his unspectacular (though solid) play on the field, but Troy is at it again: Local reports say that he spent a ton of time AFTER all the other coaches, trainers, and players left OTA's to work with Witner and Youboty on coverage techniques. Also he spent a lot of time with Roscoe Parish working on getting off of the line better, running routes, and not tipping off plays pre-snap (just like he did with Lee Evans).

 

Cut this guy now!

708775[/snapback]

 

well, now that willis showed up in camp, the masses need someone else to trash. Looks like TV is next up. I wonder who july's whipping boy will be?

[RuntheDamnBall]

well, now that willis showed up in camp, the masses need someone else to trash. Looks like TV is next up. I wonder who july's whipping boy will be?

708799[/snapback]

Oooh, can it please be Greg Jerman?

[stinky finger]

well, now that willis showed up in camp, the masses need someone else to trash. Looks like TV is next up. I wonder who july's whipping boy will be?

708799[/snapback]

Please......don't seperate yourself from the masses.....you may think you have your "finger on the pulse" of all that goes on here.......but whatever the case.....get over yourself....it's getting tedious.

[Dawgg]

Seriously... this holier than thou act has gotten way old.

 

In any case, if TV is such a great teacher, MAKE HIM A COACH. He's well past his prime and I'd much rather take my lumps with Ko Simpson out there.

 

Please......don't seperate yourself from the masses.....you may think you have your "finger on the pulse" of all that goes on here.......but whatever the case.....get over yourself....it's getting tedious.

708812[/snapback]

[ganesh]

i was thinking today that the offense has NO veteran leadership.  if Holcomb gets the startging QB nod, maybe him, but after that, they have no one.

708784[/snapback]

 

 

The young guys have to step up and build that leadership....Leadership comes by playing on the field and making plays and earning the respect of your peers...Isn't this true in any field or at your work place ?.....Players like McGahee, Evans

Losman who are all entering their 3rd or 4th season are the YOUNG VETERANS of this team and they have to carry this team.....

 

We already have experienced vets in Chris Villarial and Gandy to provide that

Veteran experience...

[ganesh]

well, now that willis showed up in camp, the masses need someone else to trash. Looks like TV is next up. I wonder who july's whipping boy will be?

708799[/snapback]

 

Back to Coy Wire

[stuckincincy]

Back to Coy Wire 

708828[/snapback]

 

I thought we were setting up Fletcher for a few good eye pokes.

[ganesh]

I thought we were setting up Fletcher for a few good eye pokes. 

708834[/snapback]

 

Nah....Coy Wire is the ultimate Whipping Boy

[R. Rich]

Please......don't seperate yourself from the masses.....you may think you have your "finger on the pulse" of all that goes on here.......but whatever the case.....get over yourself....it's getting tedious.

708812[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Seriously... this holier than thou act has gotten way old.

708820[/snapback]

 

 

There's a bit of humor mixed in w/ sarcasm in Ramius' post, but it does ring true.

 

This place has gotten bogged down in a mob mentality lately. Everything and everyone sucks according to the mob, and they'll turn their pitchforks and torches on you if you disagree w/ them. That mentality has driven many long time posters away from here, whether they choose to post sparingly or just leave altogether. It's really too bad that people can't agree to disagree on things, it's either "all or nothing; agree w/ me or you're an idiot".

 

I'm sure a lot of this comes from watching our team struggle year after year. I know I wasn't thrilled @ the way the Levy era started, as Marv and Ralph seemed clueless and not on the same page, but I think they're getting on the right track. Whether or not we all agree on the plan they had during the draft, the fact that they HAD a plan was comforting to me. I don't expect this team to transform into a champion overnight, so I realize there will be difficult times. All I hope is that they work toward the end of those times.

[BuffaloWings]

Seriously... this holier than thou act has gotten way old.

 

In any case, if TV is such a great teacher, MAKE HIM A COACH.  He's well past his prime and I'd much rather take my lumps with Ko Simpson out there.

708820[/snapback]

I don't see how this is a "holier than thou" act at all. I believe that a team needs a guy like Troy....as a player, he can help along the rookies and youngsters while showing them on the field how it's done. It's better to have a veteran doing something like that than just doing his own thing and protecting his future.

 

Remember that he did the same thing with Lee Evans a couple of years ago - he worked with him outside of the minicamps and training camp and I think Lee has turned out ok so far.

[JinVA]

It's really too bad that people can't agree to disagree on things, it's either "all or nothing; agree w/ me or you're an idiot". 

708853[/snapback]

Spoken like a true gentlemen. I didn't think you even read the board anymore let alone post on it. Either way good to see you're still around.

[Dawgg]

R. Rich -- I too am a longtime poster, having been here since 1997. With that being said, I will turn the tables a little bit. People who have a strong opinion are villified on this board. If someone questions Willis' committment to the team (which isn't exactly an unreasonable question), all of a sudden they are labeled as anti-Bills or overly harsh. While there are plenty of posters who take that my way or the highway attitude, there are plenty of old timers who do the very same thing.

 

Posts that paint a sunny, optimistic picture are labeled as "great posts" while posters that paint a gloomy picture are labeled as trolls. In short, I think it's a 2 way street.

 

 

 

There's a bit of humor mixed in w/ sarcasm in Ramius' post, but it does ring true.

 

This place has gotten bogged down in a mob mentality lately.  Everything and everyone sucks according to the mob, and they'll turn their pitchforks and torches on you if you disagree w/ them.  That mentality has driven many long time posters away from here, whether they choose to post sparingly or just leave altogether.  It's really too bad that people can't agree to disagree on things, it's either "all or nothing; agree w/ me or you're an idiot". 

 

I'm sure a lot of this comes from watching our team struggle year after year.  I know I wasn't thrilled @ the way the Levy era started, as Marv and Ralph seemed clueless and not on the same page, but I think they're getting on the right track.  Whether or not we all agree on the plan they had during the draft, the fact that they HAD a plan was comforting to me.  I don't expect this team to transform into a champion overnight, so I realize there will be difficult times.  All I hope is that they work toward the end of those times.

708853[/snapback]

[Tortured Soul]

In any case, if TV is such a great teacher, MAKE HIM A COACH.  He's well past his prime and I'd much rather take my lumps with Ko Simpson out there.

708820[/snapback]

Remember Eddie Robinson?

 

I don't think there are any TV "haters" on this board (as opposed to Big Mike, JP, WM, KH, etc). I think everyone agrees he's a great guy, a tough player, and a great teacher. The question is how much has his play slipped, and there are legitimate arguments both ways.

[Dawgg]

Exactly.

 

Vincent is a stand-up guy, great player ONCE UPON A TIME. If this is truly a youth movement in Buffalo (and it appears to be that way), Troy Vincent should stay on the roster as a backup/coach at best.

 

Remember Eddie Robinson?

 

I don't think there are any TV "haters" on this board (as opposed to Big Mike, JP, WM, KH, etc).  I think everyone agrees he's a great guy, a tough player, and a great teacher.  The question is how much has his play slipped, and there are legitimate arguments both ways.

708878[/snapback]

[R. Rich]

R. Rich -- I too am a longtime poster, having been here since 1997.  With that being said, I will turn the tables a little bit.  People who have a strong opinion are villified on this board.  If someone questions Willis' committment to the team (which isn't exactly an unreasonable question), all of a sudden they are labeled as anti-Bills or overly harsh.  While there are plenty of posters who take that my way or the highway attitude, there are plenty of old timers who do the very same thing.

 

Posts that paint a sunny, optimistic picture are labeled as "great posts" while posters that paint a gloomy picture are labeled as trolls.  In short, I think it's a 2 way street.

708877[/snapback]

 

 

Having a strong opinion, even if it is contrary to popular opinion, is one thing. Ranting and raving w/ the same old tune is another. It is quite possible to have an opinion many would disagree w/ and still present your side w/out sounding psychotic. Badolbilz has done that for years, and I don't think he's been villified around here. Well, if he doesn't show up w/ those garlic potatoes when I see him @ the next tailgate, he might.

 

Dawgg, next time you think you're getting ganged up on, let me know. Heck, I question Willis' committment too after seeing him skip OTAs not to do a Jerome Bettis/Walter Payton-type workout on his own, but to chill w/ the NFL Total Access crew.

[C.Biscuit97]

The young guys have to step up and build that leadership....Leadership comes by playing on the field and making plays and earning the respect of your peers...Isn't this true in any field or at your work place ?.....Players like McGahee, Evans

Losman who are all entering their 3rd or 4th season are the YOUNG VETERANS of this team and they have to carry this team.....

 

We already have experienced vets in Chris Villarial and Gandy to provide that

Veteran experience...

708823[/snapback]

 

That's a fair point you make. However, do any of those guys really strike you as leaders? While I've easied up my stance against Willis not attending OTAs, a leader would have attended. As for Losman, the knock is that guys just can't relate to him. And Evans just seems like a quiet guy. Plus as a whole, wrs don't seem like the best leaders. But perhaps in time these guys can grow into leadership roles. However, they have a long way to go to match TV. Plus, you need leaders on both sides of the ball.

 

As far as people wanting to cut TV, I just don't understand this. The guy is the ultimate professional. When he got injured his first year, he helped McGee become a starting NFL corner. There were also reports of him working with Evans after practice doing the same thing he's doing with Parrish. When he came back from injury and McGee was entrenched in the position, he was a difficult situation. He certainly could have female dogged (mulitple pro bowl corner). But he did what a leader would do: put the team first and moved to free safety. Is he the best free safety in the world? No, and he tackles like a corner playing safety. But he still tied for the team lead in picks and fumble recoveries, so he is still a productive player. Safeties are also the quarterback of the defense and play a huge role in positioning the defense before the snap. Trust me, this is an extremely underrated part of the job. Additionally, starting two rookies at safety is the recipe for disaster. The reason Ko Simpson feel to us is because he is inexperienced and a little immature. Besides who would be the leaders in our secondary? Clements is a great playmaker, but he really doesn't strike me as a leader. In short, in my eyes, TV's positives far outweigh his negatives. If this defense is going to be a top 10 (which I believe it will be), it has a lot better shot with TV back there. Rant over, sorry.

[Ramius]

R. Rich -- I too am a longtime poster, having been here since 1997.  With that being said, I will turn the tables a little bit.  People who have a strong opinion are villified on this board.  If someone questions Willis' committment to the team (which isn't exactly an unreasonable question), all of a sudden they are labeled as anti-Bills or overly harsh.  While there are plenty of posters who take that my way or the highway attitude, there are plenty of old timers who do the very same thing.

 

Posts that paint a sunny, optimistic picture are labeled as "great posts" while posters that paint a gloomy picture are labeled as trolls.  In short, I think it's a 2 way street.

708877[/snapback]

 

I'll echo R.Rich's above post and say that often times people with a strong opinion are villified because they never give up and arent accepting of another point of view or criticism. Some posters continue to rant and crusade on the same topic over and over, and are never open to other suggestions or <shudder> logical football discussion. Case in point, go over and look at the martin nance thread.

 

If one can be strong about their point but still discuss it reasonably and back it up and see there is another point of view, it will go over better. Unfortunately, the posters that can do this are few and far between.

 

With reagards to optimisn/pessimism, this board is too black and white. There is no in between. If one posts that they think the bills will do good, they are accused of "drinking the kool-aid" or "looking through rose colored glasses". Someone will then claim they are a "realist" and the bills are going 1-15. It is a 2-way street.

 

As for willis, i wasnt happy that he wasnt at OTA's at all. But i was arguing for him, and against everyone who was calling for his head and saying to cut him and saying they cant wait until hes not on the bills.

 

I didnt intend for my initial post to be condescending, but there waaaay too much "marv sucks because he didnt draft x player, marv sucks because he didnt sign x player, marv sucks because he DID sign x player, willis sucks because he didnt attend OTA, vincent sucks because hes old", etc.

 

Its the attitude of the majority that irks me here. Tuten Reyes was someone everyoen wanted, and when we signed him, he all of a sudden sucked because carolina didnt re-sign him. Everyone we sign sucks because their old team released them. Everyone we dont sign is because ralph is cheap.

 

In summary, its too tough to have an actual reasonable, logical football discussion around these parts. Thats why i hang out on OTW so much.

[Pyrite Gal]

I think part of the backlash against the antiTV sentiment comes from the arguments not being well thought out or motivated by anti-union rather than pro-football sentiments.

 

1. A decision to cut him now means cutting the player who led the team in combined turnovers received last year as he tied for the team lead in both INTs and FRs. Posts which advocate cutting him seem based in rants about his age (even as a decrepit oldster he surpassed his teammates in turnover production and this fact should be acknowledged and vetted by those advocating cutting him) or his cap figure rather than the realities of his production vis-a-vis other Bills.

 

2. Even those committed to a youth movement seem to ignore:

 

A. The value he can provide to this use as an on-field peer teacher (you want coaches, experience and peer instruction so why rely on only one when you can do all).

 

B. The fact that they may be on a 2-3 year timeline, but likely Ralph who wants to put butts in the seats as a businessman and ain't gettin younger almost certainly wants to win as much as he can right now.

 

3. The anti-union stuff is peripheral for the most part to whether he should be on this football team which is best governed by performance (again even if he is getting old, he turnover production is best on the team). In fact. to the extent his union presidency is relevant at all it all argues toward keeping him:

 

A. He is an acknowledged and respected leader by his peers on a young team which will want and need leadership.

B. The NFLPA is a partner with the team owners (and arguably the majority partner given the way total revenues are divided in the new CBA). There will be neogtiations and ultimately agreement between these partners over issues of dispute, but retaliatory actions by team owners against the NFLPA is old thinking as the new thinking of cooperation has resulted in massive profits for all parties of the NFL.

C. If there is any sense that the Bills and Ralph are in fact using the game to retaliate against the NFLPA, there is a significant risk that this will undercut our ability to sign the best FAs.

 

4. The switch to the Cover 2 from the zonr blitz plays to TV's strengths and not only makes it essential not to cut him this year but amazingly may even extend his career as a Bill a year after that.

 

Cutting TV may make anti-union folk happy (the unions are so weak it is counter intuitve in the first place to identify them as a leading problem in society, the union movement has not led anything since the late 60s or early 70s) butit would likely be a bad idea in terms of football performance for this team.

[Rico]

Cut this guy now!

708775[/snapback]

Nah... wait till after Labor Day.

[LabattBlue]

I believe most of us have had a case of sarcastic smartass-itis at one time or the other here on TSW, but some get carried away with it.

 

That being said, nothing is going to change, so we all just tolerate each other or end up leaving in a huff(some even come back after a while ).

[R. Rich]

I believe most of us have had a case of  sarcastic smartass-itis at one time or the other here on TSW, but some get carried away with it.

708976[/snapback]

 

Speak for yourself.

[Dawgg]

in the short-term.

 

In the long-term, letting Ko Simpson go out and play would be the best IMO.

 

butit would likely be a bad idea in terms of football performance for this team..............

708920[/snapback]

[obie_wan]

Say what you will about his unspectacular (though solid) play on the field, but Troy is at it again: Local reports say that he spent a ton of time AFTER all the other coaches, trainers, and players left OTA's to work with Witner and Youboty on coverage techniques. Also he spent a lot of time with Roscoe Parish working on getting off of the line better, running routes, and not tipping off plays pre-snap (just like he did with Lee Evans).

 

Cut this guy now!

708775[/snapback]

 

 

too bad our coaches can't teach these techniques.

[LabattBlue]

Speak for yourself.

708979[/snapback]

I said "most" not "all", so if you are feel that you are above being a sarcastic smartass, then don't sweat it.

[Dan Gross]

too bad our coaches can't teach these techniques.

708986[/snapback]

 

Is this the kind of stuff you were talking about, Rich?

 

Just like the "Offense did real well in practice today" = "Our defense sucks" and "Defense did well in practice today" = "Our offense sucks" stuff...

[Ramius]

in the short-term. 

 

In the long-term, letting Ko Simpson go out and play would be the best IMO.

708980[/snapback]

 

I tend to agree with you, but i'd rather phase in simpson slowly over the course of the season as opposed to just tossing him to the wolves. let him learn under vincent, pahse him in more and more as the season progresses, and start him toward the end of the year if he's earned it or if we arent going to make the playoffs. But i expect Simpson to be our full time starter next season.

[Adam]

Say what you will about his unspectacular (though solid) play on the field, but Troy is at it again: Local reports say that he spent a ton of time AFTER all the other coaches, trainers, and players left OTA's to work with Witner and Youboty on coverage techniques. Also he spent a lot of time with Roscoe Parish working on getting off of the line better, running routes, and not tipping off plays pre-snap (just like he did with Lee Evans).

 

Cut this guy now!

708775[/snapback]

Hopefully he can help somebody beat him out for a starting spt, but there is no need to cut him

[R. Rich]

I said "most" not "all", so if you are feel that you are above being a sarcastic smartass, then don't sweat it. 

708991[/snapback]

 

 

Don't take that tone w/ me, young man.

[R. Rich]

Is this the kind of stuff you were talking about, Rich?

 

Just like the "Offense did real well in practice today" = "Our defense sucks" and "Defense did well in practice today" = "Our offense sucks" stuff...

708994[/snapback]

 

 

Is this the kind of stuff you were talking about, Labatt?

[Dan Gross]

Is this the kind of stuff you were talking about, Labatt?

709008[/snapback]

 

I don't agree. Your[sic] an idiot.

[Bill from NYC]

  Whether or not we all agree on the plan they had during the draft, the fact that they HAD a plan was comforting to me. 

708853[/snapback]

 

Well, it did little to comfort me. After round 1, the Bills had a franchise tag cb, a #8 draft selection who is a safety, a well paid #2 corner. Lots of resources in the secondary, huh? Almost lopsided?

Well, to bolster this secondary, the selected dbs with 2 of the next 3 picks, and gave one away in the process. This, for a cover-2 defense. Oh well.

 

Interestingly, I applaud most of their other moves, at least the cuts.

I will miss Big Sam the most, but it truly was time for him to go, or so I think. Anderson and Williams were disasters. Milloy was simply OK, and aging. Moulds was a whining malcontent. He too was aging, and not very well I hasten to add, especially at his obscene price for this year and next.

 

The Bills already had a ton of 07 cap space, and cutting Fat Bennie adds even more to this. There will almost certainly be some very talented ufas that the Bills need in 07, such as perhaps Steinbach, Anderson, Levi Jones, Backus, and others whom I am not aware of.

 

I guess the future of our beloved Bills will come down to the following:

 

1) Will Marv/Ralph ever deem it fitting to allocate huge resources to blockers who do not suck?

2) Is JP any good?

3) Will this odd draft turn out well?

4) TKO

5) Will Ralph be willing to spend the money it takes to win?

 

These are some huge questions Rich. Especially for a team that could have drafted Davin Joseph, and come away with 2 or even 3 more first day picks.

[JDG]

I do like TV....

 

You like TV, eh? You don't say..... What's on tonight?

 

JDG

[34-78-83]

Well, it did little to comfort me. After round 1, the Bills had a franchise tag cb, a #8 draft selection who is a safety, a well paid #2 corner. Lots of resources in the secondary, huh? Almost lopsided?

Well, to bolster this secondary, the selected dbs with 2 of the next 3 picks, and gave one away in the process. This, for a cover-2 defense. Oh well.

 

Interestingly, I applaud most of their other moves, at least the cuts.

I will miss Big Sam the most, but it truly was time for him to go, or so I think. Anderson and Williams were disasters. Milloy was simply OK, and aging. Moulds was a whining malcontent. He too was aging, and not very well I hasten to add, especially at his obscene price for this year and next.

 

The Bills already had a ton of 07 cap space, and cutting Fat Bennie adds even more to this. There will almost certainly be some very talented ufas that the Bills need in 07, such as perhaps Steinbach, Anderson, Levi Jones, Backus, and others whom I am not aware of.

 

I guess the future of our beloved Bills will come down to the following:

 

1) Will Marv/Ralph ever deem it fitting to allocate huge resources to blockers who do not suck?

2) Is JP any good?

3) Will this odd draft turn out well?

4) TKO

5) Will Ralph be willing to spend the money it takes to win?

 

These are some huge questions Rich. Especially for a team that could have drafted Davin Joseph, and come away with 2 or even 3 more first day picks.

709096[/snapback]

 

Stop hijacking my Vincent thread you young punk!

[Sisyphean Bills]

I guess the future of our beloved Bills will come down to the following:

 

5) Will Ralph be willing to spend the money it takes to win?

 

709096[/snapback]

 

I don't see this as a real problem. It's a TSW Urban Myth problem.

 

Ralph has in the recent past been a big spender and the Bills have been at the top of the NFL in spending their wad under the cap. This is his point about the new CBA -- a point that it seems few comprehend -- because he routinely spends up to the cap on salaries but is a small market guy, he'll have to spend more money than he actually has available to continue this mode of operation and hope that the big market teams are going to be nice and put enough cash in the charity pool to cover the spending deficit. Ralph, having not been born yesterday, sees how this could be a conflict of interest and not work out quite so well.

 

Now, the last 5 or so years, Ralph has been throwing away the money on over-the-hill players and big gambles on young "greats" that can't play the game, but that's another issue.

[Ramius]

I don't see this as a real problem.  It's a TSW Urban Myth problem.

 

Ralph has in the recent past been a big spender and the Bills have been at the top of the NFL in spending their wad under the cap.  This is his point about the new CBA -- a point that it seems few comprehend -- because he routinely spends up to the cap on salaries but is a small market guy, he'll have to spend more money than he actually has available to continue this mode of operation and hope that the big market teams are going to be nice and put enough cash in the charity pool to cover the spending deficit.  Ralph, having not been born yesterday, sees how this could be a conflict of interest and not work out quite so well.

 

Now, the last 5 or so years, Ralph has been throwing away the money on over-the-hill players and big gambles on young "greats" that can't play the game, but that's another issue.

709412[/snapback]

 

dead on. the problem ralph has is that the Bills revenue isnt going to rise as fast as the salary cap with the new CBA. thats what hes worried about. We are so far under the cap this year because there's no one else to sign, save for extensions. i dont think we'll see too many fo those this summer, as the coaches want to see who pans out before handing out contracts.

[Frez]

He's small and not physical enough for me. I want a hard hitter back there. This team has been lacking some toughness in the secondary for a few years now. I would not be afraid of Troy Vincent going across the middle to catch a pass. I don't think he puts any fear into the WR's in the NFL anymore.