Kincaid Shakir and especially Cook need to be focal points of the passing attack

[Einstein]

20 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

This might be the single most ridiculous thing I have ever read on this forum.  It also might be the single most inaccurate thing I have ever read on this board.  And it also might be simultaneously the single most delusional and narcissistic thing I have ever seen on this forum to even remotely imagine you could know as much or more than a career long football coach who has coached at the highest level of the sport and been part of the highest level of success of the highest level of the sport. 

 

I am actually impressed such a trifecta could even be accomplished in one post, so ironically, my hats off to you, bravo.  

 

PS:  Football is without a doubt the most complex of all major team sports, and it's not close.

 

You’re wrong, but what else is new?

[RoscoeParrish]

32 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect, but this isn't how you can look at what his ceiling is.  This is the 2nd year in a row where our offense is geared around putting the ball into 8-10 different receivers hands per game, including consistently getting 3rd string players involved.  We are getting targets for 3 different TE's, 3 different RB's, 5 different WR's and every week.  Samuel, Shavers, Moore, Knox, Hawes, Davis, Ty, etc all getting targets on top of Keon, Palmer, Shakir, Kincaid, Cook.

 

Its a function of the offense, not the ability of the player.  Look at Diggs in the same season under Dorsey then under Brady.  Diggs was on pace for 2nd biggest season of his career under Dorsey, then under Brady his production fell off a cliff and over those final 7 games it was Shakir who led the team in receiving despite Diggs getting twice as many targets.  

 

I mean its clear as day its the offensive design limiting anyone players ceiling here for individual statistics in the passing game.  Look at Samuel before Buffalo and in Buffalo.  Look at Moore before Buffalo and in Buffalo.  Look at Cooper before Buffalo and in Buffalo.  Why is everyones yardage total significantly lower here under Brady than it was before Brady?  Because the offense does not focus on any one WR, no one gets proper targets, its literally designed to be anyone on any given play.  

 

So no disrespect, but hard disagree that Shakir's ceiling is being reached by being in this offense.  

 

 

No offense taken, I just reject the premise entirely that if we traded Shakir for Jamar Chase in offseason, Chase would be getting 80-100 targets a year for 900ish yards in this offense.

 

Edited 16 hours ago by RoscoeParrish

[CincyBillsFan]

4 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I am not saying you cant use him for that too, I am saying they run too many routes for him that don't suit his game.  You cant just throw 50/50 balls to him, you need to move him around and let him run routes where he is better suited for success too.  Just running him deep down field along the sideline to maybe throw and back shoulder pass to all the time is not going to get him regularly involved, not to mention, it makes it pretty easy to scheme against.  He has shown he can be dangerous on slants, crossers, comebacks, but he gets very few targets and routes like that each week.  They seem to use him more like Mack Hollins than an actual focal point of the passing attack.  

I don't disagree with you but how disappointing is it that the one thing we thought was his strength - making those 50/50 catches - is not a strength?  Your argument makes sense but it leaves me wishing the Bills had taken Worthy or McConkey whose strengths are what we thought they were.

 

 

[PauleeeWalnuts]

12 hours ago, Ramza86 said:

Idk what the hell is going on with some of these playcalls

 

Shakir was great doing the Beasley role. Need more of that. 

 

Kincaid has been fine this year. Keep it up.

 

WHY HAVE WE STOPPED DUMPING IT TO COOK? That needs to come back ASAP.

I wish McD could answer why Cook is on the sideline for 50% of the snaps when he is your second best offensive player. They march down the field on his back and score, then they go away from him, it makes no GD sense. 

[ShakAttack]

My 3 leg parlay last night:

 

Cook over 13 yards receiving

Cook over 78 yards rushing (got that one)

Shakir over 48 yards receiving

 

Thought it would have been a slam dunk.

 

Only went one for 3. Placed the bet after I find out Kincaid was inactive.

 

Yeah, I do blame Joe Brady!

[HappyDays]

5 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

You will be hard pressed to find anyone outside of a small contingent on TSW who don't think Shakir is a very good player. 

 

Just to clarify my point on him Alpha - I agree Shakir is a very good player. But he's very good in his niche way, not in a true WR way.

 

The first comparison that comes to mind, and I don't know how this will be received so I'll just say it, is Xavier Worthy. Not in the sense that they have the same skill set (they don't). But in the sense that they both have one special trick they excel at, and that one trick works a lot better when defenses can't key into it. Last year KC's passing offense really struggled after Rashee Rice went down. They asked Worthy to do more traditional WR things because they had no other options and he just wasn't consistent. This year they've made it a point to add more WRs, and with Rice coming back next week that will put Worthy firmly back into his ideal role and we'll see his explosive plays happen more frequently. I think Shakir is the same way.

 

It's awesome what Shakir is able to do even when defenses know he's going to get the ball on those same 3-4 plays every week. It would look even more awesome if defenses couldn't spend any time worrying about those plays because they had more important things to worry about, like a legit outside WR that can separate and beat them over the top. You add that player to the offense and suddenly Shakir has all sorts of space to work with. Now when you throw those quick screens to him defenses are genuinely surprised and flat footed because their focus was elsewhere. That's the snowball effect of having a legit WR talent on the field.

 

Shakir is the definition of a complementary player, and he's a great complementary player at that, but that still doesn't elevate him to the level of full time traditional WR. And that's unfortunately how the Bills are forced to use him right now.

[NewEra]

14 hours ago, Billsfanatic8989 said:

The fact Shakir needs to be a focus point of the offense is an indictment on Beane. 

Not THE focal point.  Equally split with Kincaid and Cook.  Although I think it should be Cook> Kincaid > Palmer (because he can run a diverse tree than Shakir) > Shakir > Coleman > Samuel (he can make plays) >  pass to RB not named cook > Knox > Hawes.

[Alphadawg7]

15 hours ago, RoscoeParrish said:

No offense taken, I just reject the premise entirely that if we traded Shakir for Jamar Chase in offseason, Chase would be getting 80-100 targets a year for 900ish yards in this offense.

 

Wait - come on, you just compared Shakir to arguably the best WR in football who plays an entirely different position, completely different style of WR, and a player that is a 160+ target type player.  That’s pretty silly, no disrespect.  Just because Shakir is not Chase does not mean Shakir has hit his ceiling for the Bills, that’s a pretty ridiculous suggestion.

 

Put Shakir on the Rams and I will bet everything I own that he would put up more targets, yards and catches than he does here.  And Shakir likely would have been a 1000 yard WR last year had he not missed a game and a half from injury and Allen and the starters didn’t sit out week 17.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

13 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I don't disagree with you but how disappointing is it that the one thing we thought was his strength - making those 50/50 catches - is not a strength?  Your argument makes sense but it leaves me wishing the Bills had taken Worthy or McConkey whose strengths are what we thought they were.

 

 

Worthy hasn’t done anything of note despite being a feature target with Andy Reid and Mahomes.  His stats are very underwhelming and that’s with being a featured player with the greatest offensive mind and best QB in the league.  His stats would be even worse here and everyone would be saying he’s a bust and we should have taken Ladd.

 

The real miss was not being aggressive to get BTJ or taking what was the clear BPA in Cooper DeJean at the time.  We drafted for need in Keon, but we should have taken Cooper. 
 

Ladd also had no value here, his stats would look just like Samuels.  Him and Shakir play the same position, and Ladd only had a good rookie year due to lack of options.  This year, and ancient Keenan and forgotten Quentin have taken all targets and production from Ladd.  
 

While I like Ladd and thought he was the 5th best WR in the draft, he’s a slot WR and we were a team with only slot WRs on it when we drafted Keon.  We needed size and speed, BTJ offered both, he should have been the priority, and if you can’t get him, Cooper should have been the pick if you go BPA and safety was also a big need.  I liked Keon in the draft, so wasn’t and we picked him, and kind of expected it too.  Ladd was best WR on my board at our pick, but Keon was the next best WR on the board for me, and felt Ladd wasn’t a good fit, so wasn’t upset with the pick.  
 

But if we could make a different decision, it’s clearly try for BTJ or take Cooper for me.  

[DapperCam]

Palmer and Kincaid are the only players that can get open and catch the ball past 10 yards. So when they were both out after 6 snaps on offense, we were severely limited in what we could do vs Atlanta.

 

No joke, we might need Gabe Davis to suit up and see what he can do. Hopefully he is recovered soon.

[Jukester]

Brady has 

On 10/14/2025 at 7:51 AM, Ray Stonada said:

There seems to be a weird arrogance about the Everybody Eats thing… like, no matter what works we have to keep switching guys out and running different plays to prove how nobody is above the scheme. 
 

Instead of like, I don’t know, letting your best players play except when they need rest?

I like the word arrogance when it comes to Brady. He was called out on the jet sweep against NE by his head coach and he goes right back to it a crucial point in the Atl game to utter failure.  He continues to call and force low percentage jump balls and back shoulders to Coleman. I feel like he has a game plan and will just stick to it regardless of game scenarios and general flow without adjusting. Stubborn as hell. No quick hit plays or blitz beaters. This has also made our once calm and collected MVP qb skittish in the pocket and playing poorly. 
Brady needs to get his head out of his ass. 

 

[Alphadawg7]

11 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Just to clarify my point on him Alpha - I agree Shakir is a very good player. But he's very good in his niche way, not in a true WR way.

 

The first comparison that comes to mind, and I don't know how this will be received so I'll just say it, is Xavier Worthy. Not in the sense that they have the same skill set (they don't). But in the sense that they both have one special trick they excel at, and that one trick works a lot better when defenses can't key into it. Last year KC's passing offense really struggled after Rashee Rice went down. They asked Worthy to do more traditional WR things because they had no other options and he just wasn't consistent. This year they've made it a point to add more WRs, and with Rice coming back next week that will put Worthy firmly back into his ideal role and we'll see his explosive plays happen more frequently. I think Shakir is the same way.

 

It's awesome what Shakir is able to do even when defenses know he's going to get the ball on those same 3-4 plays every week. It would look even more awesome if defenses couldn't spend any time worrying about those plays because they had more important things to worry about, like a legit outside WR that can separate and beat them over the top. You add that player to the offense and suddenly Shakir has all sorts of space to work with. Now when you throw those quick screens to him defenses are genuinely surprised and flat footed because their focus was elsewhere. That's the snowball effect of having a legit WR talent on the field.

 

Shakir is the definition of a complementary player, and he's a great complementary player at that, but that still doesn't elevate him to the level of full time traditional WR. And that's unfortunately how the Bills are forced to use him right now.

Let me clarify - I have not said Shakir is an elite WR1.  He is a slot WR, that’s his job and he’s special at it.  That’s like saying well he’s a great safety but he gets burned at CB.  It’s two entirely different positions.  
 

A slot WR is a true WR, it’s not a part time role.  Does that mean we don’t need a legit WR1 on the outside - no.  But this notion that because he’s not an elite outside WR1 somehow makes him just a complimentary piece is not accurate at all.   You put Shakir next to Puka on an offense not afraid to feed their top targets and his production would jump and he would be a regular problem for defenses.
 

The issue is two fold - one, we don’t have anyone to threaten elsewhere on the field and roster full of guys who are most dangerous in the same areas Shakir is.  It’s redundancy.  Two - we run an offense that doesn’t put any focus on any one player, so even if Shakir was best on the outside we wouldn’t be featuring him.  Diggs went from being on pace for the 2nd best season of his career under Dorsey to fall off a cliff production wise under Brady with the philosophical switch to the offense.  

I whole heartedly agree he can’t be and shouldn’t be our “top WR”.  But from a talent perspective, if we traded for Olave, Shakir would still be our “best WR” in terms of overall talent IMO even though this team badly needs someone like Olave to open up the offense.  Leaning on Shakir to open it up isn’t going to work when the rest of the targets eat in the same areas Shakir does.  Now trade for DJ Moore and he would be the best WR on the team and Shakir would be even better out the slot.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

I would say only Cook and Kincaid have the ability to be elite weapons. Why they don’t use Cook in the passing game is beyond me.