The final play to Shakir. Samuel was wide open for easy TD

[Einstein]

33 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

How is the pass to Samuel not the right throw from the pocket?

Because Samuel isn't open if Allen stays in the pocket.
 

Samuel only appears open because Allen is scrambling to his right (where he is very dangerous), and that shifts the defense to the side the QB is scrambling to.

 

Why? Because defenses know that QB’s don’t throw 60 yards across their body. So they let those WR’s run free.

[DrDawkinstein]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

1st play was a quick screen to Shakir that was dropped. 3rd play has already been discussed in this thread and was definitely not a hero ball play. On the contrary Allen did not throw the dangerous pass that Gonzalez was trying to bait him into. Here's the 2nd down play:

 

Everybody is running deep and is completely blanketed. Cook as the checkdown option is double covered. You can see him start his throwing motion to Cook but pulls it back, because the right most LB is in great position to drive on Cook and the ball and best case scenario is Cook gets crushed after 3 yard gain.

 

 

Still too much scrambling around BS.

[27yankees]

4 hours ago, zow2 said:

Josh was getting knocked around pretty good in that 2nd half.. Not sure how that affected him? if any.   He had some nice throws but definitely missed a few open guys.

He had bell rung multiple times. 

[KOKBILLS]

30 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

How is the pass to Samuel not the right throw from the pocket?  If Allen puts the ball the outside in front of Samuel the only way it can be defended is to go through Samuel.  

 

Thats not incorrect, thats just what it is.  There was without a shadow of a doubt a window to hit Samuel, its honestly not even really debatable, its just a fact.  

 

It was 100% the right throw. Even if he felt the pressure from the back he could have taken a step to the right and kept his eyes right then planted and led Samuel into the endzone... Even still there is a spot during his scramble when his has his arm cocked and loaded...Samuel and Shakir are both wide open and he does not pull the trigger... It's at the 11 second mark... 

 

[MJS]

30 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I don’t think you watch enough NFL if you think Josh’s performance was “poor.”

 

Poor by his standards, sure. But not poor.

 

that kinda speaks to the larger part that we can’t beat the Pats without our QB playing like the best QB in football, which bodes ill.

Yeah. I guess that's a good point. I do watch a lot of football and most QBs look pretty poor to me most of the time now. Definately poor by Josh Allen standards, but the QB play in the NFL is not that great right now, honestly.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

Still too much scrambling around BS.

i mean its fair to question the design on that second down play that he threw away imo

 

not only are the routes just kind of run into coverage but nobody's even looking back for the ball at the top of Allen's drop

 

the only options there are checkdown to cook or some kind of slow developing deep shot into that 2deep look

 

 

2 minutes ago, KOKBILLS said:

 

It was 100% the right throw. Even if he felt the pressure from the back he could have taken a step to the right and kept his eyes right then planted and led Samuel into the endzone... Even still there is a spot during his scramble when his has his arm cocked and loaded...Samuel and Shakir are both wide open and he does not pull the trigger... It's at the 11 second mark... 

 

😂😂i think once you hit the '11 second mark' it's pretty safe to assume there arent a lot of right answers anymore

[HappyDays]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Still too much scrambling around BS.

 

I mean on 2nd down he literally had no options once Cook was taken away by the LB. Scramble drill was the only possible decision there. Looks to me like he is pointing to Kincaid telling him to go left where there is a bunch of open space but Kincaid doesn't pick up on it.

 

3rd down I can hear the argument that he should have stood there and hit a crossing route for maybe a 5 yard gain. That's at least a legitimate option that was available compared to some of the other suggestions in this thread that are based on nothing. But does that mean you want to erase every Allen scramble right in his career? Because you can't just pick and choose which ones you erase. He doesn't know in advance if it's going to work. So you either let him do it or you remove it from his game entirely. Considering the proper result of this play should have been a 1st down yes I am happy to say that even with the benefit of hindsight telling me the actual result, I would still rather he scramble right to try and create a 1st down instead of bringing up maybe 4th and 5 and seeing what happens.

[Murdox]

4 hours ago, MikePJ76 said:

.But If Allen just stayed in the pocked he had a simple throw for an easy 30 yard TD to Curtis Samuel.  Not sure why Josh bailed on good protection.  

 

 

Good protection?  It was ok, but Dawkins was pushed about 3-4 yards backwards - a pattern throughout the night - and Josh knew it had been breaking down all night so he felt the need to roll out to his right.  In fact, immediately after Josh rolls out, Dawkins gets pushed a further 3 yards backwards.  I feel most good QBs - epsecially mobile ones - would naturally roll right given the line collpasing more on that side.  Not the best example of "good" protection, frankly, especially if you try and divorce it from the flow of the game and what Josh had been experiencing behind the line.

Edited 2 hours ago by Murdox

[Simon]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I mean on 2nd down he literally had no options once Cook was taken away by the LB. Scramble drill was the only possible decision there. Looks to me like he is pointing to Kincaid telling him to go left where there is a bunch of open space but Kincaid doesn't pick up on it.

 

 

One of the LB's dropped right into the throwing lane to Kincaid (he ended up getting buried by Spencer Brown) or I think he'd have taken it.

[KOKBILLS]

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

i mean its fair to question the design on that second down play that he threw away imo

 

not only are the routes just kind of run into coverage but nobody's even looking back for the ball at the top of Allen's drop

 

the only options there are checkdown to cook or some kind of slow developing deep shot into that 2deep look

 

 

😂😂i think once you hit the '11 second mark' it's pretty safe to assume there arent a lot of right answers anymore

 

I hear you believe me... But I was just really surprised at how open they were... Like... They were open... And he seems to be staring at least one of them down arm cocked... Just surprised me more than anything. I just assumed live there were no options and everyone was covered up tight...

[PromoTheRobot]

We are all crapping on the defense today, but if we got a first down on that final possession (not the one with 8 seconds left) we win that game. It was in the hands of Josh and the offense.

[jlgarsh]

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

No one other than Kincaid had a good game yesterday, Josh included.

Shaq Thompson too, but I digress. Most people were awful

[Simon]

4 minutes ago, Murdox said:

Dawkins was pushed about 3-4 yards backwards - a pattern throughout the night - and Josh knew it had been breaking down all night so he felt the need to roll out to his right

 

Dawkins carrying the End 4 yards in shotgun+ a 5step drop is not a problem.

[HappyDays]

1 minute ago, Simon said:

 

One of the LB's dropped right into the throwing lane to Kincaid (he ended up getting buried by Spencer Brown) or I think he'd have taken it.

 

Pats played with tremendous discipline on the scramble drills. Vrabel had them ready. They made sure Allen had no lane to run forward and they got in throwing windows or plastered themselves to guys. It doesn't help that Coleman and Shakir are the only two pass catchers we have that know how to work open on scramble drills. The rest of them look clueless when Allen leaves the pocket. Diggs was always elite in those moments and we saw last night a perfect dichotomy of what it looks like when you have that guy versus when you don't. Maye was able to scramble right and find immediate completions while Allen was forced to hold the ball forever.

[Murdox]

Just now, Simon said:

 

Dawkins carrying the End 4 yards in shotgun+ a 5step drop is not a problem.

 

It's the flow of the game.  You can't divorce a SINGLE play from the flow of the game and what the players have been seeing the whole game.  I rewatched it this morning.  The OL was routinely breaking down, including Dawkins, so it was natural for Josh to roll right here given the line was being pushed backwards on that side.  I think he made the right choice, frankly.  A few seconds later Dawkins was even FURTHER back and Josh would have naturally had to move to his right or risk the DL rolling off the block for a sack or QB pressure.

[KOKBILLS]

2 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

Dawkins carrying the End 4 yards in shotgun+ a 5step drop is not a problem.

 

Agreed... Josh's back foot hits and he's gone... It's all but simultaneous...

[Alphadawg7]

24 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Because Samuel isn't open if Allen stays in the pocket.
 

Samuel only appears open because Allen is scrambling to his right (where he is very dangerous), and that shifts the defense to the side the QB is scrambling to.

 

Why? Because defenses know that QB’s don’t throw 60 yards across their body. So they let those WR’s run free.

 

Thats not accurate, Allen is still in his drop back when the window to hit Samuel is opening, and he remained open as Allen moved to his right.  The point is, Allen took off early and had he not, then the throw to Samuel was right there and an easy TD strike or close to it.  There was no reason to roll right when he did, he should have seen the easy throw to Samuel opening up.  

Edited 2 hours ago by Alphadawg7

[Simon]

1 minute ago, Murdox said:

 

It's the flow of the game.  You can't divorce a SINGLE play from the flow of the game and what the players have been seeing the whole game.  I rewatched it this morning.  The OL was routinely breaking down, including Dawkins, so it was natural for Josh to roll right here given the line was being pushed backwards on that side.  I think he made the right choice, frankly.  A few seconds later Dawkins was even FURTHER back and Josh would have naturally had to move to his right or risk the DL rolling off the block for a sack or QB pressure.

 

I disagree.

The Pats pushed them around a bit very early but once they quickly settled in they were rock solid.

I actually thought it was one of the few games where they were better in passpro than they were in the run game.

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, KOKBILLS said:

 

I hear you believe me... But I was just really surprised at how open they were... Like... They were open... And he seems to be staring at least one of them down arm cocked... Just surprised me more than anything. I just assumed live there were no options and everyone was covered up tight...

i think it's more testament to how crazy our expectations are from the QB spot that we look at a wideout 10seconds after snap 30+ yards away opposite side endzone from QB scramble and think 'hey that guy's open'

[Simon]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Pats played with tremendous discipline on the scramble drills. Vrabel had them ready.

 

The fact that people still call this guy a meathead, not only after watching his well-coached teams, but after watching Belichik trust his smarts enough to use him in about 16 different roles is ........... something.