Does there need to be a rethinking of the basic D?

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

18 minutes ago, finn said:

We're talking about immediate impact the year the player is drafted enough to put the Bills over the top in that last playoff game. You're doing a straw man implying I'm saying no rookie will have any impact or be better than expected. 

What does immediate impact mean ? I don’t get it… as a kick returner ? As a 3rd down RB ? I thought making immediate impact meant contributing right away in one shape or another.

[Mister Defense]

Yes, they clearly need to rethink their entire defensive philosophy, though it was the foundation of the best defense in the league, as far as points allowed, for the five years before last.

 

All based on a pre season game.

 

Completely rational move, thought.

 

Rex Ryan is available.  Time to move on from the McBeane disaster.

 

 

[oldmanfan]

7 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

Yes, they clearly need to rethink their entire defensive philosophy, though it was the foundation of the best defense in the league, as far as points allowed, for the five years before last.

 

All based on a pre season game.

 

Completely rational move, thought.

 

Rex Ryan is available.  Time to move on from the McBeane disaster.

 

 

Just throwing it out there.  Even going back to last year it seemed we were vulnerable to the quick passing game.

[YattaOkasan]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Just throwing it out there.  Even going back to last year it seemed we were vulnerable to the quick passing game.

Agree, but it was less of/not a problem in previous years as Mister Defense suggests.  I think the inability to disguise coverage after losing Poyer and Hyde really hurt us last year. 

 

Thats also probably related to our playoff struggles as well.  Our strength in previous years was other teams not knowing what coverage we would be in and hesitating to figure it out post snap.  However, good QBs and coordinators in the playoffs likely could figure out our post snap tendencies and not even care about our pre snap alignment.  Combine that with inadequate pass rush and a good QB can hit his drop verify coverage with post snap check (ignoring pre snap alignment) and sling it.  Greener QBs are not gonna be able to do that as well.

Edited August 19 by YattaOkasan

[Mister Defense]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Just throwing it out there.  Even going back to last year it seemed we were vulnerable to the quick passing game.

 

But last year they had a much diminished defense by almost anyone's standards, including McBeane's.  They clearly knew their defense was undermanned on the line and in the secondary.  Hence, a tremendous commitment to the defense in the off season and draft.

 

Before that, they, with McDermott's scheme, were consistently good.

 

Now we need Hairston to get back asap, as White is not the answer.  And for Bishop, or someone else if not, to step it up.

 

And someone like Sanders to get pressure up the middle.

 

Looking forward to seeing what this looks like in week 1, but more importantly, by Halloween. 

 

[Utah John]

On 8/18/2025 at 9:58 AM, MPL said:

Yes, if we're in a position this season where those exact 11 players are on the field together, we're f'd. But that scenario only happens if we're up by 50 in the 4th quarter or the starters all eat bad subs from the only remaining Jreck Subs in Booneville and all come down with e.coli — which I'd say has a less than .00001% chance of happening. 

That was sort of my point.  Not the extremely unlikely event that all the starters are out, but asking how well the 11 work together when one or two subs are in.

6 hours ago, Mister Defense said:

 

But last year they had a much diminished defense by almost anyone's standards, including McBeane's.  They clearly knew their defense was undermanned on the line and in the secondary.  Hence, a tremendous commitment to the defense in the off season and draft.

 

Before that, they, with McDermott's scheme, were consistently good.

 

Now we need Hairston to get back asap, as White is not the answer.  And for Bishop, or someone else if not, to step it up.

 

And someone like Sanders to get pressure up the middle.

 

Looking forward to seeing what this looks like in week 1, but more importantly, by Halloween. 

 

Great players make coaches look smart.  The Bills lucked into (or were smart enough to acquire) Hyde and Poyer, two players disregarded by the league, but who became absolute stars.  The Bills took a gamble which really paid off by trading up to draft Josh Allen.  Matt Milano was a low draft pick -- really lucky there.  Same with Benford.  Take away these great choices and McDermott wouldn't look as smart as he has been.

[HardyBoy]

13 hours ago, Buffaloflash said:

My thought exactly. Beside, nothing else can excuse the defensive play calling.

 

I mean I haven't seen a breakdown of the play calling vs you're going up against a Ben Johnson offense without any game planning and you really need to game plan and play as a cohesive unit against his offense, even one where Johnson likely just played vanilla stuff and didn't game plan either.

 

Especially where the Bills played really well in that joint practice...I think someone earlier in the thread (I read it somewhere and it was a good point) that the Bills were likely trying to get players on islands and seeing how they would react and what choice they would make in that situation...especially where there might not be a correct answer, cause Johnson is trying to make it so no matter what you do individually you're wrong...which is why you need to play as a cohesive unit in general, but especially against that offense.

 

Long way of saying I'm sure there could be more than one explanation for it...like the Bills have had a lot of success playing highly vanilla defenses, even if they have struggled in the playoffs (Caleb Williams isn't Joe Burrow right now)...they disguised and rolled coverages really well during that time...I'd love to know if the defense had the ability to audible at the line and the real issue was they were intentionally sending in play calls that might not win early in the game and seeing if the play was properly diagnosed and audibled...obviously they didn't game plan, but Joe Marino was talking about a play where they blitzed and they ended up with Codrington on DJ Moore either for a td or a big first down...that seems like a situation that might call for an audible...

[Mister Defense]

21 minutes ago, Utah John said:

That was sort of my point.  Not the extremely unlikely event that all the starters are out, but asking how well the 11 work together when one or two subs are in.

Great players make coaches look smart.  The Bills lucked into (or were smart enough to acquire) Hyde and Poyer, two players disregarded by the league, but who became absolute stars.  The Bills took a gamble which really paid off by trading up to draft Josh Allen.  Matt Milano was a low draft pick -- really lucky there.  Same with Benford.  Take away these great choices and McDermott wouldn't look as smart as he has been.

 

But isn't that the problem with such a negative Bills' mindset? Good moves they make are simply luck?

 

It is a really nonsensical point of view, makes zero sense. Just something to throw out into the ether to make them look bad.  Completely unsupportable.

 

And then, of course the bad things are almost always their fault.  And the rest of the good things? Yup, just luck.

 

Seems like an awful mindset.  Lacks objectivity in an extreme manner,  to the point of being humorous.

 

 

[In Summary]

When Babich starts chewing a swizzle stick I'll be concerned.

[DeepPass]

On 8/18/2025 at 2:49 PM, <bills4life> said:

When damar Hamlin is a starting safety and Cole bishop looks like a train wreck it absolutely should give you pause for concern. Not to mention t. Rapp hits like a freight train and injures your own players throughout the season where depth is limited while at the same time running a 4.8 fourty yd dash. Tre white being your 2nd starting corner after Achilles and acl tear.  That secondary could be a real problem. Maybe they play great, and I get it’s only preseason. However I don’t think it’s outlandish to be mildly concerned.  Especially after we have seen this same story the past 7 years and we all know how it ends. Even with a pyor and Hyde back there in their prime. 

great re-cap of our defensive mess.  

[MJS]

They aren't sitting in zone. They are playing a ton of man coverage and blitzing a lot. You "soft zone" complainers don't even know what you are looking at.

[Sierra Foothills]

Many here are in panic mode though this group overreacts as a general rule, so no surprise there.

 

After last year the Bills recognized the need to improve the defense and they acted accordingly. They added 6 draft picks and 3 prominent free agents to the defensive side and added Ryan Nielsen and Jason Rebrovich to the defensive coaching staff. I expect the defense to be both different and better this year. How much better is anyone's guess. They're not gonna show anything ahead of the Ravens game.

 

Also not mentioned in this topic is that the game can't be properly evaluated without combining it with the joint practice... which was a very under-covered event. There was precious little video or reporting of the joint practice and it's easily arguable that the Bills placed more importance on the practice than the game.

 

As for the game, it looked like the Bills weren't prepared to play football and it's almost miraculous that no one was injured because you shouldn't even step onto a football field if you aren't ready to play. It's the responsibility of the coaches to make sure the players are prepared and they weren't. They were mistake-prone and lacked intensity and awareness. They looked tired and sloppy. I think McDermott was measured in his criticism of the team because he knew that the team wasn't prepared to play. It happens, especially in the preseason.

 

All of that said, they did avoid injuries which is a huge plus... and it's too early (and too late) to hit the panic button or talk about wholesale changes.

 

The foundation for this season has already been poured.

 

[That's No Moon]

[finn]

On 8/19/2025 at 6:17 AM, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

What does immediate impact mean ? I don’t get it… as a kick returner ? As a 3rd down RB ? I thought making immediate impact meant contributing right away in one shape or another.

I'm going to assume you're responding in good faith and not trolling.

 

My position is that the defense has not improved enough to make a difference if/when they're up against KC in the playoffs. So, yes, maybe Landon Jackson will be the second coming of Bruce Smith in three years, but he won't move the needle in January, nor will the other draft picks, really. That's what I mean by "immediate impact" in the context of this exchange, which is about whether Beane has done enough to put the team over the top.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

3 minutes ago, finn said:

I'm going to assume you're responding in good faith and not trolling.

 

My position is that the defense has not improved enough to make a difference if/when they're up against KC in the playoffs. So, yes, maybe Landon Jackson will be the second coming of Bruce Smith in three years, but he won't move the needle in January, nor will the other draft picks, really. That's what I mean by "immediate impact" in the context of this exchange, which is about whether Beane has done enough to put the team over the top.

Neither you or I knows what’s going to happen. Who will pan out and who won’t. That’s why the NFL is so great. The unexpected rise & fall of certain players and teams. Or I guess the Bills should just forfeit the season considering it’s SB or bust..

[BananaB]

22 hours ago, Mister Defense said:

Yes, they clearly need to rethink their entire defensive philosophy, though it was the foundation of the best defense in the league, as far as points allowed, for the five years before last.

 

All based on a pre season game.

 

Completely rational move, thought.

 

Rex Ryan is available.  Time to move on from the McBeane disaster.

 

 

But how’s it stand up in the playoffs? That’s where you win Championships.

 

D hasn’t been good late in games protecting leads either. 

Edited August 20 by BananaB

[SoonerBillsFan]

13 hours ago, In Summary said:

When Babich starts chewing a swizzle stick I'll be concerned.

so many aren't going to get that reference. I do and +1 to you good sir!

[finn]

3 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Neither you or I knows what’s going to happen. Who will pan out and who won’t. That’s why the NFL is so great. The unexpected rise & fall of certain players and teams. Or I guess the Bills should just forfeit the season considering it’s SB or bust..

Yikes, first it was the Straw Man fallacy, now it's False Binary. What's next, Slippery Slope? Ad Hominen? Appeal to Authority? 

 

I say this kindly: In your posts, stick to substance, don't respond emotionally, consider the merits of differing views, and avoid both logical fallacies and universally admitted truths, like "We don't know what will happen," which just take up space. 

 

 

 

[YattaOkasan]

34 minutes ago, finn said:

Yikes, first it was the Straw Man fallacy, now it's False Binary. What's next, Slippery Slope? Ad Hominen? Appeal to Authority? 

 

I say this kindly: In your posts, stick to substance, don't respond emotionally, consider the merits of differing views, and avoid both logical fallacies and universally admitted truths, like "We don't know what will happen," which just take up space. 

 

 

 

I think he’s just saying it’s too early to tell this season. I think that’s a very fair interpretation of the data so far. Posters are saying we need a new defensive philosophy based off last years results and this preseason. In a funny term of events we have done more new things in preseason and at the end of last season. The change has already started it’s been super rocky. There’s seemingly a plan to continue using more man coverage but it might not be refined until late in the season. That seems especially true while we wait for Hairston to get back up to speed. But all the hand wringing on defensive philosophy during a preseason game is strange. McD said he does less than zero game planning. Not sure how anyone can speak to defensive philosophy when there’s no game planning. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, BananaB said:

But how’s it stand up in the playoffs? That’s where you win Championships.

 

D hasn’t been good late in games protecting leads either. 

 

Which games have the Bills lost late protecting leads? The only I remember was Vikings at home 2 years ago and the defense got the stop. It was on Morse and Josh botching the snap for a safety.