Latest Wande Owens (UDFA) Hype

[Mr. WEO]

7 hours ago, NewEra said:

Yes, in this situation- because safeties are immune to improving because…. Of last seasons competition.  Got it.

 

sanders was such a bum that he out snapped Gabe by a wide margin.  
 

competition often breeds improvement.  That’s my point. My only point here

 

"outsnapped"?  lol, ok.  let's run with that.  626 yards over 747 snaps for Sanders is 0.84 yards per snap.  Compare to 549 yards over 410 snaps for Davis yielded 1.34 yards per--a whopping 59% difference in efficiency of utilization between the 2.   Let's now add in that every pass  Davis caught in 2021 (35) was either a TD or a 1st down.  Compare that to Sanders, where 35 of 42 passes were TDs (fewer than Davis) or 1st downs.

 

you will now conclude that Davis was a more efficient WR when he was in the game than Sanders--good work!

[Mr. WEO]

5 hours ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

I thought the purpose of preseason games was to see how you can improve your roster.

 

Starters are pretty much set, as are many depth guys from the previous season.  

 

The games are  largely a bunch of back benchers and soon to be cut scrubs struggling to get a spot. Once the games end, 40% of the summer roster instantly disappears.

[Mat68]

15 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

That's why I said I don't think he has much of a shot, not that he has no chance. Between possible injuries and surprise off the field issues, it's not impossible for anyone who's at Training Camp to make the Roster. But it's pretty unlikely to me.

 

The number at Safety is almost always 4. As you said, Rapp and Bishop are locks. I also think at least one of Jordan Hancock and Cam Lewis are locks. Both are Backup Safety and Backup Nickel that are listed as Safeties or "DB" falling under the Safety Depth Chart (given the crowded field at CB).

 

Of the 11 5th Round Picks that were selected in the McBeane regime, not a single one were outright cut as a Rookie. The exceptions from those 11 5th Round Picks that didn't make the roster in Year 1 are Vosean Joseph and Justin Shorter, who were "redshirted". I see Hancock brought in as a replacement for Cam Lewis, as both the words of the team and the player say he's playing the exact same role.

 

With Hancock, I see 3 possible scenarios: 1.) He outright replaces Lewis and Lewis is released, saving 1.75m in Cap 2.) Hancock doesn't look ready to take on the role from Lewis, he's "redshirted", and Lewis keeps his spot alongside Rapp, Bishop, and most likely one of Hamlin or Forrest 3.) They like the idea of having 2 guys who can play Safety, Nickel, and Special Teams and keep both Hancock and Lewis as the depth underneath Rapp and Bishop.

 

Ultimately, I see it playing out like this: Rapp and Bishop are locks. For one of the spots, it comes down to Jordan Hancock or Cam Lewis, who double as the Backup Nickel CB. And the other spot comes down to Hamlin or Forrest. I think if the board got their way, Hamlin would be cut. But I think the brass views him MUCH differently. I'll believe it when I see it that they go from Starting him to not even having a place for him as depth.

 

Save for unexpected injuries or off the field things that could bring suspensions or cuts, Owens would have to beat out Hamlin and Forrest and also have the Bills thinking Hancock over Lewis instead of Hancock and Lewis. It's a big ask. UDFA's generally only tend to make it when the depth is poor and they don't have many options, like Buffalo Joe at LB. Safety isn't one of those situations.

Agree with Hancock.  He is roster lock. Last season Hamlin, Bishop, Rapp Edwards, and Lewis were on the intial 53.  With Benford, Douglas, Johnson, Elam and Ingram

 

I think there are more spots than you think.
 

 CB Benford, Hairston, White, Johnson and open could be Hancock or Hardy, Jackson, Ingram and Strong.

 

S Rapp, Bishop and 3 spots could be Hancock depends what position he plays through camp preseason.  If he takes Lewis that still leave 2 open spots.  For Hamlin, Forest, Lewis, and possibly Owens.  
 

I get the numbers change each year but on a team that didn't have much roster turn over Safety and depth at Safety is the only real open competition on the roster.  If a UDFA makes the roster its the likely only spot possible unless they find a return man.  

 

[Doc]

5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Starters are pretty much set, as are many depth guys from the previous season.  

 

The games are  largely a bunch of back benchers and soon to be cut scrubs struggling to get a spot. Once the games end, 40% of the summer roster instantly disappears.

 

Which is to say...they're not completely set.  Which has been the point.

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Which is to say...they're not completely set.  Which has been the point.

sure

[GunnerBill]

22 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

That's why I said I don't think he has much of a shot, not that he has no chance. Between possible injuries and surprise off the field issues, it's not impossible for anyone who's at Training Camp to make the Roster. But it's pretty unlikely to me.

 

The number at Safety is almost always 4. As you said, Rapp and Bishop are locks. I also think at least one of Jordan Hancock and Cam Lewis are locks. Both are Backup Safety and Backup Nickel that are listed as Safeties or "DB" falling under the Safety Depth Chart (given the crowded field at CB).

 

Of the 11 5th Round Picks that were selected in the McBeane regime, not a single one were outright cut as a Rookie. The exceptions from those 11 5th Round Picks that didn't make the roster in Year 1 are Vosean Joseph and Justin Shorter, who were "redshirted". I see Hancock brought in as a replacement for Cam Lewis, as both the words of the team and the player say he's playing the exact same role.

 

With Hancock, I see 3 possible scenarios: 1.) He outright replaces Lewis and Lewis is released, saving 1.75m in Cap 2.) Hancock doesn't look ready to take on the role from Lewis, he's "redshirted", and Lewis keeps his spot alongside Rapp, Bishop, and most likely one of Hamlin or Forrest 3.) They like the idea of having 2 guys who can play Safety, Nickel, and Special Teams and keep both Hancock and Lewis as the depth underneath Rapp and Bishop.

 

Ultimately, I see it playing out like this: Rapp and Bishop are locks. For one of the spots, it comes down to Jordan Hancock or Cam Lewis, who double as the Backup Nickel CB. And the other spot comes down to Hamlin or Forrest. I think if the board got their way, Hamlin would be cut. But I think the brass views him MUCH differently. I'll believe it when I see it that they go from Starting him to not even having a place for him as depth.

 

Save for unexpected injuries or off the field things that could bring suspensions or cuts, Owens would have to beat out Hamlin and Forrest and also have the Bills thinking Hancock over Lewis instead of Hancock and Lewis. It's a big ask. UDFA's generally only tend to make it when the depth is poor and they don't have many options, like Buffalo Joe at LB. Safety isn't one of those situations.

 

I think Hancock is a lock. Don't think it is a lock that it is one of the 4 nominal safety spots that he accounts for. If Hancock and Lewis BOTH make it then sure, one of the is being counted as a safety. But that is a 50/50 proposition IMO.

[BillsFanForever19]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think Hancock is a lock. Don't think it is a lock that it is one of the 4 nominal safety spots that he accounts for. If Hancock and Lewis BOTH make it then sure, one of the is being counted as a safety. But that is a 50/50 proposition IMO.

 

He's listed as a "DB" on the roster, just like Lewis. So technically, we ended last season with 3 Safeties and a "DB", with 5 CB's and an extra "CB" that was just a KR. Lewis fell under the Safety depth chart more than anything. And I think given the even more crowded field at CB than Safety and Hancock's official designation, it's much more likely to me he'll be counted on the Safety depth chart over the CB depth chart, like Lewis was. But I suppose you're right, it's not a guarantee.

 

I just think it's easier to make room for him in the Safety numbers game than it is with the CB numbers game. Benford, Hairston, and Taron are locks. Leaving likely 2, maybe 3 spots for Tre, Strong, Ingram, Jackson, and the rest of the PS/UDFA field.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

He's listed as a "DB" on the roster, just like Lewis. So technically, we ended last season with 3 Safeties and a "DB", with 5 CB's and an extra "CB" that was just a KR. Lewis fell under the Safety depth chart more than anything. And I think given the even more crowded field at CB than Safety and Hancock's official designation, it's much more likely to me he'll be counted on the Safety depth chart over the CB depth chart, like Lewis was. But I suppose you're right, it's not a guarantee.

 

I just think it's easier to make room for him in the Safety numbers game than it is with the CB numbers game. Benford, Hairston, and Taron are locks. Leaving likely 2, maybe 3 spots for Tre, Strong, Ingram, Jackson, and the rest of the PS/UDFA field.

 

Sure, it is easier for him to make it there..... if the Bills think he can play there. But they are not going to keep him as a safety if all they want to put on his plate in year 1 is nickel duty. If you are making it as one of the 4 safeties on the roster the Bills better be comfortable you being out there as a safety. We know they are with Lewis. Maybe they will be with Hancock. Backup safety spots are one of the areas where I think there is a genuine camp battle, especially if Bishop can prove himself a starter. 

[Richard Noggin]

21 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

One from the field of Hancock and Lewis *is* a lock. The question is which one? Or do both make it?

 

We have to have at least one Backup Nickel, which was Cam last season, doubling as a Safety and being counted on the Safety Depth Chart. Jordan Hancock is being brought in for the same role as a Backup Nickel and Safety. Will he outright replace him in Year 1? Time will tell.

 

While @Bleeding Bills Blue is technically correct that none of them can be called locks (although I agree it's unlikely Hancock is going anywhere) - that doesn't mean it's wide open for a UDFA. Rapp and Bishop will be here. One of Hancock and Lewis will be here. And then there's one more spot for Hamlin (who I don't believe will go from Starter last year to cut until I see it), the loser of the Hancock/Lewis competition, Forrest, and then Owens as a longshot.

 

In my opinion, it will either be Rapp, Bishop, Hamlin, and Hancock or Rapp, Bishop, Hancock, and Lewis. I envision that Forrest and Owens on the outside looking in, in the eyes of Beane and McDermott. 

 

I actually assume there will be 4 "true" safeties rostered initially, with at least 1 of Lewis and Hancock serving as depth for both NCB and S. Could be a position that gets trimmed once Hoecht and Ogunjobi return, depending on injuries. The lack of an established depth chart might make a deeper room more appealing out of the gates. 

[MiracleAtRich1393]

8 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

I actually assume there will be 4 "true" safeties rostered initially, with at least 1 of Lewis and Hancock serving as depth for both NCB and S. Could be a position that gets trimmed once Hoecht and Ogunjobi return, depending on injuries. The lack of an established depth chart might make a deeper room more appealing out of the gates. 

Yes, much like last year initial 53 was Rapp, Bishop, Hamlin, and Mike Edwards at S with Lewis listed as CB. This year could be Rapp, Bishop, Forrest and Owens at S with Hancock listed as CB.

[Doc]

Lewis is in no danger of being poached if cut with the intention of putting him on the PS.  A promising rookie...not so much.

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, Doc said:

Lewis is in no danger of being poached if cut with the intention of putting him on the PS.  A promising rookie...not so much.

 

Agree, although Cam is a proven NFL gunner too (he isn't peak Taiwan Jones and Siran Neal but he is solid) which might factor in. Sort of remains to be seen whether teams still value those things at cutdown in the new ST rules era.... but historically a LOT of the guys who get picked off at waiver time by other teams are guys to help at the bottom of the roster on special teams.

[Buffalo716]

6 hours ago, Doc said:

Lewis is in no danger of being poached if cut with the intention of putting him on the PS.  A promising rookie...not so much.

Cam lewis is accrued veteran so he becomes an unrestricted free agent if cut and he will certainly sign with another team

 

Good teams lose NFL quality NFL players

 

As I said most teams don't have a 50-53 guy as versatile and team friendly as can.. plenty of teams need a guy who could play back up safety and back up slot and play special teams and be good In the locker room

Edited 13 hours ago by Buffalo716

[BearNorth]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

Cam lewis is accrued veteran so he becomes an unrestricted free agent if cut and he will certainly sign with another team

 

Good teams lose NFL quality NFL players

 

As I said most teams don't have a 50-53 guy as versatile and team friendly as can.. plenty of teams need a guy who could play back up safety and back up slot and play special teams and be good In the locker room

I always think of the kicker, punter, and long snapper as 51,52,53.  The bottom of the roster I think of as 46-50, that's where the coaching staff has their heated discussions on ST and emergency [e.g. multiple in game injuries] needs.  Some of those 5 are vets and some of them are rookies, [e.g. Buffalo Joe last season].

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, BearNorth said:

I always think of the kicker, punter, and long snapper as 51,52,53.  The bottom of the roster I think of as 46-50, that's where the coaching staff has their heated discussions on ST and emergency [e.g. multiple in game injuries] needs.  Some of those 5 are vets and some of them are rookies, [e.g. Buffalo Joe last season].

Well I did say 50.. and you only dress 48

 

And I do think he squarly is in the majority of NFL rosters 48 to 50 ..  he's better than a lot of back of roster players

 

Which is typically a glue guy and he's tremendous teammate and good player

Edited 12 hours ago by Buffalo716

[3rdand12]

20 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Sure, it is easier for him to make it there..... if the Bills think he can play there. But they are not going to keep him as a safety if all they want to put on his plate in year 1 is nickel duty. If you are making it as one of the 4 safeties on the roster the Bills better be comfortable you being out there as a safety. We know they are with Lewis. Maybe they will be with Hancock. Backup safety spots are one of the areas where I think there is a genuine camp battle, especially if Bishop can prove himself a starter. 

                                                                                                                And the If ^ makes even more intriguing

Edited 12 hours ago by 3rdand12

[Mike in Horseheads]

To think I participated in the TBD mock drafts and don't have a clue who this guy is 

[Doc]

6 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Cam lewis is accrued veteran so he becomes an unrestricted free agent if cut and he will certainly sign with another team

 

Good teams lose NFL quality NFL players

 

As I said most teams don't have a 50-53 guy as versatile and team friendly as can.. plenty of teams need a guy who could play back up safety and back up slot and play special teams and be good In the locker room

 

He was an UFA last year and signed with the Bills for basically the minimum for someone with his number of years in the NFL.  

 

And releasing a player that late in the pre-season makes it much tougher for them to hook on with a new team.  At best he's probably looking at being signed after game 1 so the new team can pay him game-by-game.

 

It's a numbers game.  There are 4 true safeties (Rapp, Bishop, Forrest and Hamlin) not counting Owens, 10 CBs, 1 returner (Codrington) and 2 CB/S (Lewis and Hancock).  Again if Hancock looks promising, and especially Owens...

[Buffalo716]

12 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

He was an UFA last year and signed with the Bills for basically the minimum for someone with his number of years in the NFL.  

 

And releasing a player that late in the pre-season makes it much tougher for them to hook on with a new team.  At best he's probably looking at being signed after game 1 so the new team can pay him game-by-game.

 

It's a numbers game.  There are 4 true safeties (Rapp, Bishop, Forrest and Hamlin) not counting Owens, 10 CBs, 1 returner (Codrington) and 2 CB/S (Lewis and Hancock).  Again if Hancock looks promising, and especially Owens...

If he got cut in camp he would  absolutely be picked up by another NFL squad

 

He signed a 2-year contract  above what the veteran minimum would be for his salary.. if they thought he was a bum he would have got the lowest contract available.. even getting a couple hundred thousand above the minimum is more than a lot of players

 

He's  definitely better than most teams dime corners which is the only point I making is he is an NFL quality player regardless what team

Edited 6 hours ago by Buffalo716

[Doc]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

If he got caught in camp he would literally get signed within one week 

 

He signed a 2-year contract that pays him more than a lot of other slot corners in the NFL.. we're talking you have hundreds of nickel and dime corners 

 

He's getting paid more than a good amount.. and he's a lot better than most teams dime corners

 

If the rookies show promise, he'd be cut in final cutdowns when some 30+ players per team are released.
 

And the more years you have in the NFL the more your minimum salary is.  His is right around where a 6th year player is.