Wide Receiver Train Full Speed Ahead- CHOO CHOO!

[SoTier]

28 minutes ago, LEBills said:

Let’s assume you are right. It would be the wrong approach by the Bills to limit their offense that way. It doesn’t have to be a vertical passing attack like Dorsey ran, but you have to at least have that option in your bag or, as others have stated before, defenses will compress the middle of the field and make it even harder for your pass catchers to get open and space for your running backs to run.

 

So regardless, I am going to say we need to try to draft receivers going forward. 

 

I don't disagree that the Bills should draft WRs going forward, but I don't think that they should necessarily a) invest in superstar WRs via FA or trade  b) prioritize WRs in the draft to the point that they use too many resources to move up (as I think the Jags did in trading to draft Hunter in this past draft) or pass on a much more likely to succeed prospect also at a position of need.    The 2025 draft was not one for the Bills to grab another WR after they took one last season in the 2nd round, especially given that the Bills need to improve their defense coincided with a great draft for defensive players.

[LEBills]

3 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

I don't disagree that the Bills should draft WRs going forward, but I don't think that they should necessarily a) invest in superstar WRs via FA or trade  b) prioritize WRs in the draft to the point that they use too many resources to move up (as I think the Jags did in trading to draft Hunter in this past draft) or pass on a much more likely to succeed prospect also at a position of need.    The 2025 draft was not one for the Bills to grab another WR after they took one last season in the 2nd round, especially given that the Bills need to improve their defense coincided with a great draft for defensive players.

No they should just do what the Chiefs and Packers have done and keep drafting receivers relatively early. Keep the room cheap but talented.

 

Based on Beane’s draft history, I don’t think you are going to have to worry about that lol. Our first four rounds were great. Would have liked to see them trade up again on day 3 to secure Horton, Royals or Ayomanor. Early day 3 was the value part of this draft for WRs imo.

[Solomon Grundy]

22 hours ago, RoscoeParrish said:

I’m not sure that theory holds true.

 

We have tried to get guys to stop the Chiefs like Rousseau/Boogie with our top 2 picks. The splash FA signing of Von.

 

Not sure there’s been a massive philosophy change as much as “we need to keep trying.”

Boogie/Rousseau/Von are outside pass rushers. Sanders/Walker represents the need for inside pressure 

[RoscoeParrish]

Just now, Solomon Grundy said:

Boogie/Rousseau/Von are outside pass rushers. Sanders/Walker represents the need for inside pressure 

Yeah definitely partial difference there, but we also drafted an outside CB with our first just like we did 3 years ago.

 

Like I said, I don’t think the difference is a change in philosophy. We have been trying to slow down or stop the Chiefs for a long time. The difference between interior vs outside pressure doesn’t represent “trying to outscore them” to me. Especially when we have made considerable investments for inside pressure prior with Ed Oliver in the past.

 

I just think they needed a talent infusion in the worst way on defense. Players got old or left in FA. We are loading up to try again, and hopefully it works.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, finn said:

Greatness isn't PPG or YPG, as I'm sure you're saying. It's making the plays in the clutch. Last year, despite the 4th down blitz, Allen threw a catchable ball. Kincaid dropped it. The year before, Allen threw a perfect ball to Diggs. Diggs dropped it. In the 2022 regular season, Allen threw arguably the most beautiful and clutch ball of his career against the Jets, a 60-yard dime to Davis with the game on the line. Davis dropped it. 

 

Lesson: the Bills need more clutch receivers, aka great receivers, in the most accurate definition of the word. I happen to believe Shakir is one, and that he would have made that catch in 2023 in the end zone if Dawkins could have held his block a microsecond longer. I also think Ty Johnson may be clutch, as Hollins proved to be, surprisingly. (Naturally, Beane dumped him.) Palmer? Coleman? Samuels? Knox? Ronnie Harmon, out of retirement? 

 

If only Allen could play quarterback AND receiver...☹️

 

 

Yep.   Allen has had his moments where he's made mistakes in the clutch.   But when they've failed in the clutch it's WAY too often because of the pass catchers.   The 2023 loss to KC was largely on Allen and Brady (with an assist to Chris Jones) for foiling their idiotic play call after the 2 minute warning.   But Allen made the play this year.   If Kincaid just catches that arm punt it may go down as one of the greatest plays by Allen,  recovering from being fooled by a great call by Spags.

[BADOLBILZ]

13 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

16th most points ever...33rd highest PPG (takes games played out of the equation) is historically great...its the literal definition of that.  
 

You want to disagree then that’s your right.  But it doesn’t change the fact they are both 2 historically great numbers.

 

 

Wrong again lol.  Bills had BOTH the most points AND the highest PPG in the AFC Playoffs.  

 

 

Everything I said was a fact.  You took one subjective line about the facts and made it the entirety of facts while ignoring the long list of actual facts I listed...and why...because your read the facts wrong in the first place that started this initial convo with your initial incorrect reply where you missed the fact I literally said in the AFC.  It’s your typical muddy the water schtick to mask when you make mistakes like you did earlier.  

 

This has run its course ✌️

 

 

You literally said it was a fact that the 2024 Bills were the 16th greatest offense.   There was no context behind it,  which is the first indicator that something is subjective and not fact.   Then said your fact was a subjective take not a fact as if you hadn't lead with "facts".

 

Shystie.

 

And like I said........you claimed they had the "most points" in the AFC playoffs without noting that they played one more game than anyone else.   THEN you said that you had stated points per game.  That was a lie.

 

Shystie

 

I didn't dispute that the Bills scored slightly more per game.   But it's ridiculous to take pride in a 2 game sample size versus a 3 game sample size when the other team literally outscored you in one of those games.   Just clownish attempt to manipulate an argument(which wasn't with me, btw, you were trying to pull your BS on someone else).   

 

I am just pointing out that you are full of sh!t and regularly, intentionally use false information in your arguments.    I called you out.   As I often do.  And you don't like it.

 

So peace out TO YOU, shyster. 😂

 

 

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, LEBills said:

No they should just do what the Chiefs and Packers have done and keep drafting receivers relatively early. Keep the room cheap but talented.

 

Based on Beane’s draft history, I don’t think you are going to have to worry about that lol. Our first four rounds were great. Would have liked to see them trade up again on day 3 to secure Horton, Royals or Ayomanor. Early day 3 was the value part of this draft for WRs imo.

 

I am not agreeing Walker was great but I agree on the rest. 

[Alphadawg7]

9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

You literally said it was a fact that the 2024 Bills were the 16th greatest offense.   There was no context behind it,  which is the first indicator that something is subjective and not fact.   Then said your fact was a subjective take not a fact as if you hadn't lead with "facts".

 

Shystie.

 

And like I said........you claimed they had the "most points" in the AFC playoffs without noting that they played one more game than anyone else.   THEN you said that you had stated points per game.  That was a lie.

 

Shystie

 

I didn't dispute that the Bills scored slightly more per game.   But it's ridiculous to take pride in a 2 game sample size versus a 3 game sample size when the other team literally outscored you in one of those games.   Just clownish attempt to manipulate an argument(which wasn't with me, btw, you were trying to pull your BS on someone else).   

 

I am just pointing out that you are full of sh!t and regularly, intentionally use false information in your arguments.    I called you out.   As I often do.  And you don't like it.

 

So peace out TO YOU, shyster. 😂

 

 

 

 Except literally all of this is nonsense and wreaks of your typical desperation after being wrong about something…so theres that too lmao.  🤡 show continues.  Even after all this time the severity of your little man complex never ceases to amaze 

 

✌️

[Billl]

On 5/5/2025 at 1:45 PM, folz said:

And as far as the playoffs are concerned, in the AFC Championship game, if you take away the catch that wasn't a catch, he had 59 yards and 1 TD. In the Super Bowl, all of his production came in garbage time. When he made his first big catch, there was only 2:33 left in the 3rd quarter and the Eagles were already up 34-6. Prior to that catch (in the bulk of the first 3 quarters, when it counted), Worthy had 2 receptions for 9 yards, and 0 TDs. I'm not sold on Worthy yet, and I'm not down on Keon. Not sure, why you are so firmly the other way

So you're saying that if you take away 200 yards and 2 TDs in 3 games, Worthy's playoff stats aren't as impressive?

[Alphadawg7]

3 hours ago, LEBills said:

No they should just do what the Chiefs and Packers have done and keep drafting receivers relatively early. Keep the room cheap but talented.

 

I get what you are saying, and I’m not against drafting WRs, as I said I was beating the Donte Thornton drum all offseason.  But…I mean I think you can make a case that our room is currently cheap and talented currently.  
 

Keon is a young ascending WR who showed promise before the injury…Shakir is still probably not peaked and already a very good player who’s on a bargain of an extension.  Palmer brings a lot of what we needed and didn’t break the bank…Samuel and Moore round out 4th and 5th spots fairly cheap and are guys who could start on other teams at end of our bench.  The other key receiving weapons also have to be factored into the overall picture where Kincaid, also cheap and is ascending still, and we have 3 RBs who are all dangerous as pass catchers.  
 

I don’t know that adding some day 3 WR in lieu of Moore after the draft makes that room look any better on paper or “more talented” personally.  It gives maybe more “upside potential” given that rookie could surprise and breakout into a better player than say some of the 5 WRs we currently have, but there is no way to know that before they step on a field.  

 

3 hours ago, LEBills said:

 

Based on Beane’s draft history, I don’t think you are going to have to worry about that lol. Our first four rounds were great. Would have liked to see them trade up again on day 3 to secure Horton, Royals or Ayomanor. Early day 3 was the value part of this draft for WRs imo.

 

I liked Royals and thought he could be a target for us day 3, but I didn’t go into the draft or leave the draft thinking any of those WR guys were must get guys, where passing on them could be a huge mistake either.  Odds are, especially in this weaker class, they aren’t going to be anything better than we already have, if even that.  As with any draft, any one of them could break out and be a good to great player, but odds are not great in general before you factor in this wasn’t a great class overall.  
 

After watching embedded episode 2, it was clear the guys we took instead were all top of the board “go get” guys they loved.  Doesn’t mean that 3 years from now their choices will be proven correct by any means, but it does mean they didn’t intentionally pass on any of those day 3 WRs and instead took guys who were not just the top of their board, but guys who really stuck for them.  
 

And for me, that’s all I want my GM to do, don’t reach and take the guys they graded to be the best player available.  
 

I think, and Beane has said exactly this too (and I believe him), this was just a function of where the draft was strong at and weak at.  Beane isn’t done at WR, and he won’t be heading into next year either.  If he sees a chance to add one that can help, he’s proven he will do it even during the season.  And next year, if this group is weak this year, I think you will see Beane aggressive at adding what we need, especially after we really rebuilt our D this offseason overall.  
 

I do still wish we landed Donte Thornton though   

[LEBills]

58 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not agreeing Walker was great but I agree on the rest. 

Could have been CJ West 😢

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yep.   Allen has had his moments where he's made mistakes in the clutch.   But when they've failed in the clutch it's WAY too often because of the pass catchers.   The 2023 loss to KC was largely on Allen and Brady (with an assist to Chris Jones) for foiling their idiotic play call after the 2 minute warning.   But Allen made the play this year.   If Kincaid just catches that arm punt it may go down as one of the greatest plays by Allen,  recovering from being fooled by a great call by Spags.

I still can't believe he dropped that pass. It's OK for a first rounder drafted for his great hands to drop that in the second quarter of an early October game vs. the Arizona Cardinals, but not against KC with two minutes to go on a gotta-have-it play and with a SB appearance on the line. 

Edited 12 hours ago by dave mcbride

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

 Except literally all of this is nonsense and wreaks of your typical desperation after being wrong about something…so theres that too lmao.  🤡 show continues.  Even after all this time the severity of your little man complex never ceases to amaze 

 

✌️

 

Like I've told you before,  I call out your BS because you have potential to be much more than a checker-playing thumb fisher.

 

When you hyperbolize and gaslight and lie it undermines your effort and keeps you at the kids table of the discussion.

 

The casual Bills fan wants the answer to the Bills playoff woes to be one simple thing.   

 

It's not.  

 

They need to be better wrt personnel and coaching on both sides of the ball in the playoffs.

 

Their WR room lacks difference making talent.

 

To a lesser extent, but notably, so does their pass rush.

 

Their young OC's have been out-coached 3 years in a row by savvy veteran DC's in Spags and Anarumo. 

 

Their defensive coaching has not been able to throw curveballs at KC or Cinci in the postseason the way Spags has.

 

However.....

 

They've thrown 6 significant personnel chips at the pass rush this offseason.  

 

Brady is more "seasoned" after twice falling prey to Spags.  

 

And they've brought in respected defensive minds from very different systems to hopefully address the lack of variety on D.  

 

It might not work but those are moves that should yield improvement.

 

All they've done to address WR is replace Cooper and Hollins with a couple of 500 yard veterans who haven't produced as WR1's or WR2's at the NFL level.   Let alone be difference makers.  Moore in particular has horrible analytics.  

 

Coleman and Kincaid *could* improve but they were just terrible late last year.   If they were defensive players they wouldn't be getting handed jobs back with little or no competition like they are now.

 

The failure to address the WR issue is glaring.   Beane knows it's the area of need he hasn't done the most at.   That's why he is testy about it.

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Like I've told you before,  I call out your BS because you have potential to be much more than a checker-playing thumb fisher.

 

When you hyperbolize and gaslight and lie it undermines your effort and keeps you at the kids table of the discussion.

 

Says the guy who didn't read a post correctly that started the conversation.  I didn't do any of those things at any point.  You are gaslighting trying to bury you initial mistake, and like I said, straight from your playbook that makes having good conversations with you nearly impossible for almost the entirety of the posters here. 

 

This below here ⬇️ is maybe the first real attempt at a football discussion by you thus far.  If you just stuck to this rather than all your gaslighting, things would be so much better around here

 

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The casual Bills fan wants the answer to the Bills playoff woes to be one simple thing.   

 

It's not.  

 

Agreed.  There is never one single, exact, specific thing that is 100% the reason for a games outcome.  Anyone who believes that is delusional.

 

BUT - There are definitely things that are bigger and more impactful factors in creating those results.  

 

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

They need to be better wrt personnel and coaching on both sides of the ball in the playoffs.

 

Their WR room lacks difference making talent.

 

To a lesser extent, but notably, so does their pass rush.

 

No one, literally no one, is saying the WR room is the best and can't improve.  The argument has been made that the most important factor is scoring points, and this team scored the most points and PPG in the AFC reg season and post season, it scored the most total points in the entire NFL in reg season and post season combined (yes more than the SB champ Eagles), and the 16th most all time.  And as a bonus add on, no team has scored more points over the past 5 seasons than the Bills.  

 

And lets add even deeper context.  Bengals have arguably the best 3 headed monster in football in Burrow, Chase, and Higgins.  Burrow led the league in many passing categories and Chase in receiving, so statistically its not even arguable.  Yet - they missed the playoffs - again.  

• Bengals had to play for their life all season, all 17 games, and just about every quarter of football.  
• Bills set an NFL record for most wins by 20+ points, took whole quarters and some halves essentially to grind clock and sat Allen week 17.
• Yet Bills - with inferior WR's, lesser passing stats, less quarters and games playing all out, etc STILL scored MORE points.  

On the other side of the field, our defense was the bottom of the league in 3rd down conversions and also 1st downs allowed.  The only saving thing for the D was turnovers, an unsustainable stat that lacks consistency.  

 

So while everyone, including myself, agrees that the WR lacks "difference making talent" - this offense isn't built to need that and our DL was the weaker performing unit last year.  

 

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Their young OC's have been out-coached 3 years in a row by savvy veteran DC's in Spags and Anarumo. 

 

Their defensive coaching has not been able to throw curveballs at KC or Cinci in the postseason the way Spags has.

 

Agreed

 

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

However.....

 

They've thrown 6 significant personnel chips at the pass rush this offseason.  

 

Brady is more "seasoned" after twice falling prey to Spags.  

 

And they've brought in respected defensive minds from very different systems to hopefully address the lack of variety on D.  

 

It might not work but those are moves that should yield improvement.

 

Agreed

 

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

All they've done to address WR is replace Cooper and Hollins with a couple of 500 yard veterans who haven't produced as WR1's or WR2's at the NFL level.   Let alone be difference makers.  Moore in particular has horrible analytics.  

 

Cooper and Hollins combine for 4.3 receptions a game here.  Palmer alone is adequate to replace that, and he brings more and is more effective down field than either The Ghost of Cooper was and Mack the Block Hollins was.  And it isn't just Palmer and Moore replacing Cooper and Hollins...its Keon as well.  He won't be splitting time this year, has a year under his belt, and will be a bigger part of the offense.  Not to mention both Samuel and Kincaid are coming in healthy, where like it or not, injuries impacted their 2024 seasons where they both played hurt most the season.  

 

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Coleman and Kincaid *could* improve but they were just terrible late last year.   If they were defensive players they wouldn't be getting handed jobs back with little or no competition like they are now.

 

The failure to address the WR issue is glaring.   Beane knows it's the area of need he hasn't done the most at.   That's why he is testy about it.

 

 

And despite what I said about about Keon and Kincaid, I do agree they need to take another step forward this year.  But you see...that is the BIG difference in being the GM and being a fan who wants to rant online about decisions.  The GM and coaching staff invested in those guys and BELIEVE in those guys.  They are the ones who see them everyday, coach them, and know more about them than any of us do.  So its both unrealistic and a waste of time to sit back and expect them to just throw in the towel on Keon or Kincaid because you specifically think they were terrible.  Keon and Kincaid both know they have things to work on, the coaches know that, the GM knows...but they also see enough to where they are continuing to build with them and around them as they see them as ascending players.   

 

And at the end of the day...that is the difference.  And coming off a season where the offense was 16th most points and 33rd most PPG all time, its hard to fault them for having confidence in the guys they have and the guys they brought in to help fill roles where we were lacking.  Make no mistake about it...Beane is never done...if he sees a WR available he has shown he will go get him even in season.  If this group is a problem, WR will be addressed significantly next offseason.  

 

But 2024, the defense was much more the anchor on this teams success and they went out and did something about it.  And the most help they can give Josh is not consistently putting pressure on Josh and the offense to be perfect and rack the points up because the D cant get off the field on 3rd down.  

 

We will see if it works.