The criticism of Josh Allen

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Shaw...   I understand you think I missed your point.  I think you missed mine and we're just talking around each other.

 

You think the offense is predicated strictly on the ball being spread around to the 4 or 5 offensive weapons on the field on pass plays.

 

I think any OC that has a weapon like Josh or Lamar at QB would be a complete idiot to not coach them up in some way on when they should use their legs on passing plays.

 

You think McDermott and his OC by extension just grit their teeth and allow Allen to use his natural instincts to run on passing plays at the times he needs to.

 

I think McDermott is smart enough (in fact, "buttoned up" might be the right term here) to understand it would be incredibly foolish to not try to coach Josh up on the times he should take off, since it's part of his natural ability, anyway.

 

 

We disagree.  That's plain to see.  I really think you're being too old school in your mentality of pigeonholing the QB position--especially the modern QB--to just passing is a bit naive.

 

ummm... yes.... how else would anyone else define these things?

No, Transplant.

 

You're talking about what offense the Bills coaches choose to run.   I'm talking about how well Allen executes the offense he's given to run.  Those are two different things.   

 

The Bills do not give Allen plays with complex route trees and tell him to ignore half the routes.   They do not do that.  They give him plays just like the plays that every other team, including the Ravens, give to their QBs, and they expect him to execute those plays just like every other quarterback.   Yes, the Bills may have some plays they give to Allen that most other teams don't give to their QB, but whatever they give him, they expect him to execute the entire play.   The Bills offense is not sandlot football. 

[BullBuchanan]

On 3/31/2024 at 7:14 AM, Bills!Win! said:

Funny how nobody hates on Burrow. Is it because he made it to a Super Bowl?

That's kind of why everyone is doing this thing, so yea.

[BullBuchanan]

On 4/1/2024 at 7:41 AM, Chaos said:

What people call “lack of accuracy “ for Josh means “not alway perfect “. He is among the most accurate QBs in the NFL. 

Based on?

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

5 hours ago, Charles Romes said:

 
 

I thought not having the backup quarterback of the defense in there was devastating, especially give how much the team’s top tier pass rush relied on scheme in 2023.  

Then McDermott should’ve schemed something up. I’m not an X&O guy, but anything would’ve been better than that **** show

6 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

Sorry but you lost me once you mentioned Herbert. The guy is talented but Lamar has done so much more than Herbert has at this point 

Herbert doesn’t have the coaching LJ has. 

[Shaw66]

8 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

 

Herbert doesn’t have the coaching LJ has. 

I think Herbert looks like a million bucks, but he plays for the Chargers. 

 

After several decades, Mr. Wilson convinced me that, just like everything else, there are people who are good at owning an NFL franchise and there are people who aren't good.   There's a reason the Chargers are perennial mess, and it starts at the top.  

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

No, Transplant.

 

You're talking about what offense the Bills coaches choose to run.   I'm talking about how well Allen executes the offense he's given to run.  Those are two different things.   

 

The Bills do not give Allen plays with complex route trees and tell him to ignore half the routes.   They do not do that.  They give him plays just like the plays that every other team, including the Ravens, give to their QBs, and they expect him to execute those plays just like every other quarterback.   Yes, the Bills may have some plays they give to Allen that most other teams don't give to their QB, but whatever they give him, they expect him to execute the entire play.   The Bills offense is not sandlot football. 

 

So it seems at least on 47% of the passing plays as I mentioned in those previous advanced stats that Allen gets the ball out quickly and efficiently to his 1st read since he has the highest completion percentage in the NFL.

 

That leaves 53% of remaining plays and 23% of ground for him to meet your 75% benchmark.

 

Seems we can establish he's extremely effective getting the ball out to his 1st read.  You don't really think he NEVER gets the ball effectively to his 2nd, 3rd, or 4th reads, do you?

 

Considering he's EXTREMELY effective getting the ball to read #1, dropping the % down to him getting the ball to his 2nd read to something like 10% would be a ridiculously large drop and then to something like 5% for 3rd and 4th reads would be a lot, too.

 

But even with that Allen would be over 70% of those in-structure plays you were talking about in terms of distributing the ball to his playmakers.

 

Obviously his completion % wasn't over 70%, but I'd assume you wouldn't put drops on Allen, right?  Or routes that were miscommunications on WRs?  

 

And what about when those plays are blown up by defenders that get through the line immediately.  Those are the plays you said Brady would take sacks on.  Josh gets plus plays instead.

 

Shaw, you're right, Allen needs to be better.  That's fine.  I have no problem with anyone saying that Allen can be better.  The issue is that you put Burrow in a different tier from him saying he's a better QB and I just think that's patently false.

 

Also, I'm quite sure there are passing plays where coaches coach Allen to scramble, and I don't consider that Sandlot Football.  Michael Vick has talked about how his coaches used to coach him up for the times he should run the ball.  It would be complete negligence for Harbaugh and McDermott not to do the same with Lamar and Allen.

[BigDingus]

It's almost like I called this exact response by NFL fans & the media months ago during the season... people just didn't want to believe it.

 

If you're terminally online (like I tend to be on my days off) & step outside of the Bills bubble, you'll see many NFL fans had turned Allen into a meme. The turnovers were too noticeable, the Bills under performing throughout the season was a huge talking point, and losing a 3rd time to the Chiefs in the playoffs only served as confirmation bias for what people already believed.

 

Even if it's dumb, only significant team success can change the narrative at this point.

 

The most annoying part is how much credit Burrow gets for LOSING a Super Bowl 3 seasons ago. Isn't the goal to win a SB? I get he made it further, but so what? People talk about him like he's already got a ring. He's lucky his defense stepped up in the 2nd half of that AFCCG & Mahomes completely collapsed, otherwise he wouldn't even have that going for him.

 

Unfortunately, head-to-head matters, and everyone remembers how thoroughly the Bengals walked all over us in our own building. Then the rematch this year didn't go well either, so all people see is Josh is 0-2 against Burrow, and 0-3 against Mahomes in the playoffs.

The narrative is dumb, but it won't change until Josh changes the narrative.

[CincyBillsFan]

28 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Shaw, you're right, Allen needs to be better.  That's fine.  I have no problem with anyone saying that Allen can be better.  The issue is that you put Burrow in a different tier from him saying he's a better QB and I just think that's patently false.

I agree.  From my POV Allen and Burrow are equal with both being elite.  Any advantage that Burrow may have on ball placement, accuracy and reading coverage is easily matched by Allen's stronger arm, superior running skills and ability to escape pressure. And while Burrow has one Super Bowl appearance Allen has not missed a game in over 5 seasons.  As they say, availability is the most important ability.

 

 

36 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think Herbert looks like a million bucks, but he plays for the Chargers. 

 

After several decades, Mr. Wilson convinced me that, just like everything else, there are people who are good at owning an NFL franchise and there are people who aren't good.   There's a reason the Chargers are perennial mess, and it starts at the top.  

Sure you can blame the Chargers ownership but Herbert has been blessed with excellent offensive skill players the last couple of years.  In last season's 31 - 30 playoff loss to the Jags Herbert could only manufacture 3 second half points.  IMO Herbert is clearly on a lower tier then Allen & Burrow who are side by side just below Mahomes.

 

 

[QLBillsFan]

Josh will never be in the top 3 or so in pass completion % in the current stadium. 3-4 games a year,  the wind has an impact. In fact it’s amazing he’s as high as he is. That and his off script as they say keep it lower than elite.  
 

Compare with opposing QB’s at home I’m guessing he’s higher. In the new stadium perhaps. Having said that, for the next 5 years I’d rather have him than anyone. 
 

[BillMafia716ix]

Love Josh Allen but he needs to start winning these marquee matchups against the other top QB’s in the playoffs. 0-3 vs Mahomes and he’s 0-2 vs. Burrow. He’ll always be #3 until he beats those guys. 

[CincyBillsFan]

29 minutes ago, BillMafia716ix said:

Love Josh Allen but he needs to start winning these marquee matchups against the other top QB’s in the playoffs. 0-3 vs Mahomes and he’s 0-2 vs. Burrow. He’ll always be #3 until he beats those guys. 

He's 0 - 1 versus Burrow in the playoffs.  If you're going to include regular season games so you can say Allen is "0 - 2 vs. Burrow" then you have to include the regular season between Allen & Mahomes where Allen is 3 - 1.  

 

BTW when Dan Marino kept losing to Jim Kelly in the playoffs did we say that Kelly was a better QB then Marino?

 

 

[78thealltimegreat]

2 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

He's 0 - 1 versus Burrow in the playoffs.  If you're going to include regular season games so you can say Allen is "0 - 2 vs. Burrow" then you have to include the regular season between Allen & Mahomes where Allen is 3 - 1.  

 

BTW when Dan Marino kept losing to Jim Kelly in the playoffs did we say that Kelly was a better QB then Marino?

 

 

Cincy he’s another Allen hater he always says I love Josh but and that’s fine just wish these people would come out and say let’s just bail on Josh and trade him to like the Cowboys or 49ers and rebuild and be done with it. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

5 hours ago, BigDingus said:

It's almost like I called this exact response by NFL fans & the media months ago during the season... people just didn't want to believe it.

 

If you're terminally online (like I tend to be on my days off) & step outside of the Bills bubble, you'll see many NFL fans had turned Allen into a meme. The turnovers were too noticeable, the Bills under performing throughout the season was a huge talking point, and losing a 3rd time to the Chiefs in the playoffs only served as confirmation bias for what people already believed.

 

Even if it's dumb, only significant team success can change the narrative at this point.

 

The most annoying part is how much credit Burrow gets for LOSING a Super Bowl 3 seasons ago. Isn't the goal to win a SB? I get he made it further, but so what? People talk about him like he's already got a ring. He's lucky his defense stepped up in the 2nd half of that AFCCG & Mahomes completely collapsed, otherwise he wouldn't even have that going for him.

 

Unfortunately, head-to-head matters, and everyone remembers how thoroughly the Bengals walked all over us in our own building. Then the rematch this year didn't go well either, so all people see is Josh is 0-2 against Burrow, and 0-3 against Mahomes in the playoffs.

The narrative is dumb, but it won't change until Josh changes the narrative.

Same here. The haters are coming out in droves, but I guarantee they would give their left nut to have him as their teams QB

[BillMafia716ix]

3 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Cincy he’s another Allen hater he always says I love Josh but and that’s fine just wish these people would come out and say let’s just bail on Josh and trade him to like the Cowboys or 49ers and rebuild and be done with it. 

How am I hater? The facts is the facts. His playoffs victories have come against 

 

Phillip Rivers, Mac Jones, Skylar Thompson, Lamar and Mason Rudolph. 

[Shaw66]

9 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

9 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

  The issue is that you put Burrow in a different tier from him saying he's a better QB and I just think that's patently false.

 

 

 

No, I didn't.   I said that on-script, Burrow is demonstrably better, which he is.   Burrow has a higher completion percentage, better TD-Int ratio.   He runs his offense more effectively.  I said that off-script, he isn't as good as Allen, which he isn't.   Off-script, there's no one like Allen.  

[Ya Digg?]

3 hours ago, BillMafia716ix said:

How am I hater? The facts is the facts. His playoffs victories have come against 

 

Phillip Rivers, Mac Jones, Skylar Thompson, Lamar and Mason Rudolph. 

So then say the facts-his playoff victories are against the Colts, Ravens, Patriots, Dolphins, and Steelers. He didn’t play one down against any of those guys 

[ToGoGo]

40 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

So then say the facts-his playoff victories are against the Colts, Ravens, Patriots, Dolphins, and Steelers. He didn’t play one down against any of those guys 

His comment is what you would see on Reddit or a YouTube comment. He’s a troll and a fan of another team. 

[Mister Defense]

Hey Chronic, so you just made up those quotes and specific details in your original post!???

 

Why won't you give us the actual details, links, media and media personality names related to the entire basis of your post? I and others have asked you  repeatedly to do this.

 

You just heard some random guy say something stupid, ignorant, and then create a post that is inaccurate, untrue, based on some random guys' words? I s that, why you cannot tell us the sources? Did you just hear some guy mumbling  to himself as he walked down the street and then think, "He must be part of the media."--?

 

I say all of this agreeing with the basic premise that some in the media ARE Allen haters, and DO say ridiculous/ignorant/dumb/inaccurate things about him and define him with this ignorance. But I would never just throw out more of that crap into the ether without backing it up.  That only adds to the ignorance, their narrative.

 

Without more information you lose all credibility...

 

 

 

Edited April 3 by Mister Defense

[78thealltimegreat]

1 hour ago, ToGoGo said:

His comment is what you would see on Reddit or a YouTube comment. He’s a troll and a fan of another team. 

Exactly ToGoGo he’s done this before I think he’s a jets fan 

[BarleyNY]

20 hours ago, Professor Worthington said:

Yes but again, if Josh improves with all else being the same, I do not think that alone will get us there.  In other words, if we were to rate performance on a 100 point scale, and JA goes from a 95 to a 98-99, the Bills will still need at least one other player or head coach to take it to the same elite level.

 

So rather than pin our hopes on Josh’s incremental improvements, we should be looking for current or future players and coaches who can excel in the biggest moments.

 

Another poster mentioned Mahomes as an example of one man putting a team on his back but I don’t buy that at all.  He has arguably the

best TE in NFL history and a HOF coach who is recognized as an offensive genius.

 

The most dominant championship teams have at least 2 and usually 3 superstars as a player or coach.  The KC example is noted above.  The Pats had the GOAT, Belichik, and Gronk.  The 9O’s Bills had multiple HOFs (except I don’t buy Marv, but that’s another thread!) and went to 4 straight championships, which is why lack of a ring remains both maddening and mind-boggling.

 

 

Why do you pretend that this is an “either-or” situation? The team leaders set the standards and expectations. Among players Allen is far and away the Bills’ most influential leader.