Ethan in Cleveland Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said: Still has nothing to do with the conversation around Josh's interception rate or this thread. Correct but a turnover is a turnover. And you can probably make an argument that a fumble will result in better field position for the opponent as it is likely less far downfield and/or behind the LOS than an INT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 16 minutes ago, FireChans said: Hysterical lol. @Alphadawg7 you dog! Josh worse than Daniel Jones, Sammy Bradford and Neil "the Wheel" O'Donnell? the lengths they go to to protect the narrative…. It’s like the other one who walked through all the seasons he wasn’t INT leader and then switched to int% for the season he was… 😂 as they say the first step is admitting you have a problem. It’s like getting Tim Tebow fans to admit he had some mechanics issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 30, 2023 Author Share Posted November 30, 2023 19 minutes ago, 90sBills said: What’s the purpose of this exercise? Turnovers hurt a team’s chances of winning. Allen has a negative narrative of being a qb that, while great, is prone to mistakes and turning the ball over. So I don’t get your insistence that fumbles should not count. Why? Because it bolster the case against Allen? I doubt Allen cares. I’m sure he and the team recognize this is an issue and are working on solutions to get them lowered. LMAO, this is just getting comical now. I just can't explain this again...seriously my bad everyone for starting a thread about "interceptions" and expecting the conversation to be about "interceptions". 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 18 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: the lengths they go to to protect the narrative…. It’s like the other one who walked through all the seasons he wasn’t INT leader and then switched to int% for the season he was… 😂 as they say the first step is admitting you have a problem. It’s like getting Tim Tebow fans to admit he had some mechanics issues. Saying "this QB is great and one of the best in the NFL but turns it over a lot" shouldn't be hard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 30, 2023 Author Share Posted November 30, 2023 25 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: I mean I guess you proved your point of the thread. Allen has never led the nfl in ints. Myself and others think it would be more interesting to include all ints and fumbles because the stat is Allen leads in turnovers since he entered the nfl. Everyone knows Allen is awesome. But why are so many soccer moms about him? Just feel like this was misleading and deflecting of the point that Allen has some turnover issues. He is making $45 million. Hes allowed to be held to a really high standard. I addressed interceptions and frequency of them specifically for 3 reasons: 1. Almost every single person is referencing his interceptions in media. 2. Darius Slays comments after the Phi game saying that of course his INT totals will be higher with how much he has to throw. 3. The constant lazy Farve comparisons. This is literally why I looked into this and was curious to how Allen stacked up against not just Farve but other greats both recent and in the past. I did not start a thread about turnovers, fumbles or anything else...just fact checking where Allens interception rate was after Slays comments made me want to look into it. But others apparently have a different agenda...so be it. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 My question has always been if the quarterback gets the receiver right in the hands with the ball and he bounces it in the air and it’s intercepted. Should the quarterback get blamed for that Because that seems to happen to Josh Allen a lot 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 30, 2023 Author Share Posted November 30, 2023 1 minute ago, John from Riverside said: My question has always been if the quarterback gets the receiver right in the hands with the ball and he bounces it in the air and it’s intercepted. Should the quarterback get blamed for that Because that seems to happen to Josh Allen a lot And it is why coming into Philly that Dan Orlovsky pointed out that Josh was tied for 7th best with CJ Stroud on thowing the least amount of interceptable passes. He said that him leading the NFL still despite that in INT is a telling sign that his teammates are letting him down more than they should. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatloaf63 Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 4 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said: I make this argument all the time but people dont want to hear it. However his INT% is going up not down. This year his INT rate is up to 3.0% which is too high. In 2020 it was 1.7% which should be close to his target. He had better wide receivers that year. 4 hours ago, Charles Romes said: Are Allen’s stats being inflated here by counting total touchdowns rather than passing touchdowns. That is commonly done by Allen supporters. I take it you’re not an Allen supporter🤦♂️ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: I addressed interceptions and frequency of them specifically for 3 reasons: 1. Almost every single person is referencing his interceptions in media. 2. Darius Slays comments after the Phi game saying that of course his INT totals will be higher with how much he has to throw. 3. The constant lazy Farve comparisons. This is literally why I looked into this and was curious to how Allen stacked up against not just Farve but other greats both recent and in the past. I did not start a thread about turnovers, fumbles or anything else...just fact checking where Allens interception rate was after Slays comments made me want to look into it. But others apparently have a different agenda...so be it. https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/11/14/bills-josh-allen-interception-issues SI:AM | Josh Allen’s Turnover Issues Are Sinking the Bills https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/11/14/josh-allen-turnover-issues-bills-broncos-russell-wilson Josh Allen’s Turnover Issues Can No Longer Be Overlooked https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/josh-allen-turnovers-bills-qb-interceptions-fumbles-problem-issues/iarfyhwyodsurqzleuwhq3bo Josh Allen turnover problems: Breaking down Bills QB's recent issues with fumbles and interceptions https://www.forbes.com/sites/djsiddiqi/2023/09/12/josh-allen-and-his-turnover-issues-create-a-major-problem-for-the-buffalo-bills/?sh=163e0da04d4d Josh Allen And His Turnover Issues Create A Major Problem For The Buffalo Bills https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/josh-allen-interceptions-fumbles-turnovers-bills-qb/c16a2675a4a49e7a22163407 Josh Allen interceptions: Bills QB leads league in picks, lost fumbles as turnover problems continue https://apnews.com/article/josh-allen-bills-turnovers-analysis-77d6e53e22ad938400d9dc415f1df1b3 Josh Allen’s turnover troubles too much to overcome in Bills season-opening loss https://sports.yahoo.com/bills-josh-allen-turnover-machine-112747394.html The Bills' Josh Allen is a turnover machine, and he's the only one to blame Come on. There's intentionally obtuse and then this. Edited November 30, 2023 by FireChans 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 49 minutes ago, FireChans said: I get that. I'm kinda torn on it because a mishandled snap and basically an automatic loss of down happens a lot more than a true fumble that is a mad scramble. Hysterical lol. @Alphadawg7 you dog! Josh worse than Daniel Jones, Sammy Bradford and Neil "the Wheel" O'Donnell? You switched the samples. And the pathology reports! You kill Lentz, too?! Huh?! Did you?! Sure, which is why if you're gonna include his rushing TD's, then include his fumbles. That's the point of this exercise If you put Allen's total TD/INT up he's going to fare really well because he is a TD machine If you go total TDs/turnovers (or INTs+fumbles) he still does ok but not as well obviously The context is how much he's asked to do wrt offensive production/surrounding talent/schem coaching etc etc vs his peers He's still top tier no matter how you slice it imo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 30, 2023 Author Share Posted November 30, 2023 1 minute ago, FireChans said: https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/11/14/bills-josh-allen-interception-issues SI:AM | Josh Allen’s Turnover Issues Are Sinking the Bills https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/11/14/josh-allen-turnover-issues-bills-broncos-russell-wilson Josh Allen’s Turnover Issues Can No Longer Be Overlooked https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/josh-allen-turnovers-bills-qb-interceptions-fumbles-problem-issues/iarfyhwyodsurqzleuwhq3bo Josh Allen turnover problems: Breaking down Bills QB's recent issues with fumbles and interceptions https://www.forbes.com/sites/djsiddiqi/2023/09/12/josh-allen-and-his-turnover-issues-create-a-major-problem-for-the-buffalo-bills/?sh=163e0da04d4d Josh Allen And His Turnover Issues Create A Major Problem For The Buffalo Bills https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/josh-allen-interceptions-fumbles-turnovers-bills-qb/c16a2675a4a49e7a22163407 Josh Allen interceptions: Bills QB leads league in picks, lost fumbles as turnover problems continue https://apnews.com/article/josh-allen-bills-turnovers-analysis-77d6e53e22ad938400d9dc415f1df1b3 Josh Allen’s turnover troubles too much to overcome in Bills season-opening loss https://sports.yahoo.com/bills-josh-allen-turnover-machine-112747394.html The Bills' Josh Allen is a turnover machine, and he's the only one to blame Come on. There's intentionally obtuse and then this. LMAO you are kidding right? You can google "Josh Allen Interceptions" and find a long list too. And who does that? Turn on any of the mainstream sports shows and podcasts and they are always talking about interceptions. This is why its pointless to start threads on this board...honestly, prob be my last for a while. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatloaf63 Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 2 hours ago, BillMafia716ix said: Doesn’t matter when you’re constantly turning the ball over. Its impossible to stay consistent and when your not consistent you lose football games. Just like Sunday. Josh interception vs. Philly completely changed the momentum of the game. Philly got the lead and gained confidence. They already had confidence and were scoring at will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: That's the point of this exercise If you put Allen's total TD/INT up he's going to fare really well because he is a TD machine If you go total TDs/turnovers (or INTs+fumbles) he still does ok but not as well obviously The context is how much he's asked to do wrt offensive production/surrounding talent/schem coaching etc etc vs his peers He's still top tier no matter how you slice it imo See I'd just love to see this comparison. If Allen has say, the third best TD/TO ratio since entering the league, I'd be like, "yeah the criticism of his INT's and fumbles is overblown." @Alphadawg7 didn't do that. That probably would have refuted the narrative. It's a shame. I agree he's top tier regardless. Your stance has been he's such a tuddy machine, you gotta live with some TO's too, and I don't disagree with that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatloaf63 Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 12 minutes ago, FireChans said: https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/11/14/bills-josh-allen-interception-issues SI:AM | Josh Allen’s Turnover Issues Are Sinking the Bills https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/11/14/josh-allen-turnover-issues-bills-broncos-russell-wilson Josh Allen’s Turnover Issues Can No Longer Be Overlooked https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/josh-allen-turnovers-bills-qb-interceptions-fumbles-problem-issues/iarfyhwyodsurqzleuwhq3bo Josh Allen turnover problems: Breaking down Bills QB's recent issues with fumbles and interceptions https://www.forbes.com/sites/djsiddiqi/2023/09/12/josh-allen-and-his-turnover-issues-create-a-major-problem-for-the-buffalo-bills/?sh=163e0da04d4d Josh Allen And His Turnover Issues Create A Major Problem For The Buffalo Bills https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/josh-allen-interceptions-fumbles-turnovers-bills-qb/c16a2675a4a49e7a22163407 Josh Allen interceptions: Bills QB leads league in picks, lost fumbles as turnover problems continue https://apnews.com/article/josh-allen-bills-turnovers-analysis-77d6e53e22ad938400d9dc415f1df1b3 Josh Allen’s turnover troubles too much to overcome in Bills season-opening loss https://sports.yahoo.com/bills-josh-allen-turnover-machine-112747394.html The Bills' Josh Allen is a turnover machine, and he's the only one to blame Come on. There's intentionally obtuse and then this. Posting a bunch of poorly written articles is proving the original poster’s point and you fell right into it. 5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: LMAO you are kidding right? You can google "Josh Allen Interceptions" and find a long list too. And who does that? Turn on any of the mainstream sports shows and podcasts and they are always talking about interceptions. This is why its pointless to start threads on this board...honestly, prob be my last for a while. Don’t let a few 🤡’s spoil it for you. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted November 30, 2023 Author Share Posted November 30, 2023 3 minutes ago, FireChans said: See I'd just love to see this comparison. If Allen has say, the third best TD/TO ratio since entering the league, I'd be like, "yeah the criticism of his INT's and fumbles is overblown." @Alphadawg7 didn't do that. That probably would have refuted the narrative. It's a shame. I agree he's top tier regardless. Your stance has been he's such a tuddy machine, you gotta live with some TO's too, and I don't disagree with that If that is the comparison you want to see, then go do the work and post a thread on it. You don't need to hijack another thread and try and get someone else to do the work for you that took the time to talk about something else. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 1 minute ago, Meatloaf63 said: Posting a bunch of poorly written articles is proving the original poster’s point and you fell right into it. They all say turnovers, not just interceptions, and the OP has been saying the "narrative is only about his interceptions, not fumbles" lol. Just now, Alphadawg7 said: If that is the comparison you want to see, then go do the work and post a thread on it. You don't need to hijack another thread and try and get someone else to do the work for you that took the time to talk about something else. I think we had some pretty good discussion here, personally. I'm sorry I didn't agree with your premise or OP. That's kinda what happens when you make a topic. You put yourself out there for discussion and sometimes criticism/feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatloaf63 Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 1 minute ago, FireChans said: They all say turnovers, not just interceptions, and the OP has been saying the "narrative is only about his interceptions, not fumbles" lol. You can carry it to fumbles if you want, but then you have to bring in how many rushes does he have vs every other and rushing yards & rushing TD’s and then the narrative will get destroyed again as only Jackson and maybe Mahomes will be in the same class. Duh LOL… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewin Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 I've often thought with all the stat processing outlets, next gen stats etc it should be easy enough to create a metric 'Interceptions QB at Fault' - take out the ones that bounce off receivers hands and maybe even hail mary's at the end of half/game that are just thrown up as prayers (advanced stat could even try to determine if receiver at fault by not running route, stopping route etc) - willing to bet Josh's IQAF would be lower than a lot of QBs he has more ints than now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 1 hour ago, FireChans said: Saying "this QB is great and one of the best in the NFL but turns it over a lot" shouldn't be hard Or even…. God forbid… he’s really good, but if he just big boy’d up in a few areas of his game the team would be winning superbowls. It’s so hard to watch such a great talent continue to underachieve when it matters. !@#$ even Tom Brady said it to him…. Just manage risk a bit and win!!! Maybe he knows something about winning?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSBill Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 5 hours ago, SWATeam said: I see 8 fumbles in 8 playoff games. To go along with 56 regular season fumbles. It's very hard to argue that he hasn't been a turnover machine. To me, the fumbles have always been the most troubling. Many--most--of those come when he is trying to do too much. But this season has not been as bad. He only has 4 in 12 games (3 lost); last year, it was 13, and 5 lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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