X’s and O’s Thread

[HoofHearted]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

I've seen you mention this term before. What is a Pirate game? A specific type of stunt?

Yep. Essentially you want to slant one way with two defensive linemen to collapse the pocket to one side and force the QB to step up opposite the side you are slanting to, and then you wrap a guy around so that the QB steps up right into pressure.

[hondo in seattle]

On 11/16/2023 at 3:10 PM, HoofHearted said:

This whole spacing thing didn’t show up until this year when we started running a mesh concept quite a bit. Mesh creates a rub across the field and uses a snag that sits over top of it. This gives you both a man beater concept and zone beater concept all within the same full field concept. 

 

 

Warner said our mesh concept was pure man-beater which he saw as a problem.  

[HoofHearted]

1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Warner said our mesh concept was pure man-beater which he saw as a problem.  

The mesh portion of it is. The Snag that sits in the middle of the field is where the ball should go vs zone.

[Beck Water]

On 11/22/2023 at 6:57 AM, HoofHearted said:

That wasn’t meant to infer that it didn’t have purpose. We used CoS motions to great effect to get favorable matchups or pull backers out of the box. It also caused confusion multiple times as they didn’t know whether to bump their nickel into the box and bump the backers or whether to carry the nickel across and flip the backers (this is ultimately what they started doing). We used motions out of the backfield to identify coverages as well as to widen backers and open up pass lanes in the middle of the field.

 

My point was the concepts didn’t change from what Dorsey was running, we just dressed them up to make them more effective.

 

EDIT: And to be fair to Dorsey when he did use motions he did it intelligently and with purpose. He just didn’t do it often enough imo.

 

So there’s a TBN article by Mark Gaughn (who is usually pretty fact-based) saying that Dorsey ran motion or pre-snap shifts on 50% of the plays as OC in the first 10 games this season.

 

Brady increased it to 62% vs Jets

 

Under Daboll, he claims it was 39% in 2021 

[Beck Water]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:15 AM, Allen2Moulds said:

Warner has always been very critical of Allen and his style of play. All the video shows to me, is look...these are still the same routes. However, Warner fails to address the little tweaks that Brady made, to create better passing windows. Everyone also appeared to be in better sync. Spacing and timing go hand and hand. With Dorsey that seemed to be a little off. Over simplification by Warner if you ask me.

 

From what I’ve watched of Warner’s videos on Allen, that hasn’t been true for some time.  Warner was a pure pocket and timing pattern.  He realized over time that Allen could actually consistently make canonically “bad” throws (across his body to the middle of the field) and his ability to create plays with off-schedule throws he (Warner) could not.  

 

His point last year (haven’t seen one this year) is that Allen was sometimes bailing on an adequate pocket and creating, when he had a choice within the design of the play available.

 

I think your observation about spacing and timing not being in sync is spot on though, and about Brady introducing some little tweaks that helped passing windows.

On 11/17/2023 at 7:49 AM, Simon said:

I've been thinking about this some and I think the way we run option routes is one of the three things that Joe Brady can immediately tweak to make the Bills a better offense.

I don't necessarily mean we should intentionally decrease their usage (which he isn't going to do anyways) but I do think they'd be better off by being more circumspect about exactly who is running those routes. We've seen Davis have multiple issues with his choices, I like Shakir but he isn't very effective with this yet either, Harty has a limited route tree, Sherfield has no chemistry with anyone yet, etc. Diggs is really the only one with the chops for it and Kincaid has enough upside that it's probably worth the growing pains to continue asking him to do it if just to get better with Allen. Outside of those two guys I'd like to see Joe Brady really limit option routes for other guys.

 

Interesting observation on Harty because in his presser about the signing, Beane was ‘selling’ Harty as being able to run all the routes.

 

And of course, Allen was extolling Sherfield as working hard and catching on to the offense quickly in the off-season - so it’s a bit disappointing that didn’t translate into the regular season.

[hondo in seattle]

On 11/24/2023 at 3:44 PM, Beck Water said:

 

So there’s a TBN article by Mark Gaughn (who is usually pretty fact-based) saying that Dorsey ran motion or pre-snap shifts on 50% of the plays as OC in the first 10 games this season.

 

Brady increased it to 62% vs Jets

 

Under Daboll, he claims it was 39% in 2021 

 

This is good info.  Thanks.

 

I've also heard a couple of people criticize Dorsey for using motion pointlessly on some plays.  

 

I don't see how it's ever pointless.  Even if it's a running play and you don't particularly care if the D is in zone or man, you still might want to put a guy in motion to influence the defensive alignment.  Or simply to not telegraph that it's a running play.  

 

You never want to fall into a pattern where, for example, someone can say, "The Bills only use motion in x and y situations."  

 

Random use of motion makes the offense less readable.  

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

This is good info.  Thanks.

 

I've also heard a couple of people criticize Dorsey for using motion pointlessly on some plays.  

 

I don't see how it's ever pointless.  Even if it's a running play and you don't particularly care if the D is in zone or man, you still might want to put a guy in motion to influence the defensive alignment.  Or simply to not telegraph that it's a running play.  

 

You never want to fall into a pattern where, for example, someone can say, "The Bills only use motion in x and y situations."  

 

Random use of motion makes the offense less readable.  

 

I think there's a certain amount of what we might call "retrospective QB'ing" going on.  I don't intend to be directing this at you specifically, it just comes to mind with a couple of your comments.

 

If a play involves pre-snap shifts or motion, or motion at the snap, and it works, then everyone is all-in praising it.  If a play involves shifts or motion and it signally fails to influence the defense or the defense is all over the play anyway, then it's pointless or worse than useless.

 

I think there's some of that with Dorsey.  We hear that he rarely used  motion and therefore the offense was predictable.  Oh, well, actually he used motion about 50% of the time, which was more than 2021 Daboll 39% - well, OK, but the motion he used was pointless.

 

Sure, self-scouting is always important, but it applies to far more than motion.  There can be subtle shifts to how the receivers and OLmen position themselves that can telegraph a play as much as motion or the lack.  If I don't mistake, Bruce Smith was an avid film watcher and would comb through film looking for subtle tells to body and hand position that would signal the play.

Anyway, it may be that Brady will use motion more purposefully or the right motions and not the wrong motions or whatever.   The bottom line will still be, if it works, it's wonderful, if it doesn't, it sucks.  Some people seem to think that Brady entirely remodeled the offense or something.  I don't think he has.  I think the same personnel are pretty much running the same plays.  They may be better sequenced, or better disguised.  I thought Josh made better decisions, more quickly vs Jets.

Postgame, Salah had the interesting comments that the Bills played a patient style of game, that Josh didn't play as much hero ball and was much more decisive.  The only turnover was a Hail Mary at the very end of the 1st half.  I thought there were still some miscues that could have swung either way, but that swung our way last game.  But it was pretty clear in the Denver loss that there was sloppy execution that wasn't getting cleaned up,  week after week.  I don't think Dorsey was fired as a scapegoat, I think he was fired because the buck for offensive miscues stops on the OCs desk.  Maybe there was something in his communication style or the way he ran practices that wasn't getting through to the guys or was having a contrary effect.
 

The question will be, going forward under Brady, is the execution consistently better? 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Beck Water

[machine gun kelly]

On 11/16/2023 at 4:05 PM, 34-78-83 said:

Do you think that Brady will reduce the number of option routes built into pass plays in the current Bills scheme in order to reduce the amount of thinking necessary (by both WR and QB) and to somewhat alleviate how much "perfect execution" will be required to have successful outcomes?

Reducing option routes, having more motion, keeping Davis doing what he does best in deep routes, 3x1 sets, Allen with some timely designed runs, and the person doing motion should be Harty or Isabella given their speed.  Go routes is where they can shine.  Using Cook more as a passing outside option overloading a side.  
 

I know what we need to do.  It’s just they need to execute and that’s the tough part the position coaches have to implement with their players.

 

Lastly, have fun.  At the end of the day it’s a game.  Enjoy it while they have the god given talent to do it.

 

Thats my contribution OP, and I prefer these types of threads, than the fire everyone and witch about players, coaches, and Mgmt.  It does nothing.  And for the record, I’ve been frustrated with a number of areas, but choose not to witch.

 

As far as today, the Eagles are exposed at LB, and Safeties so the middle of the field is where to design plays.  My hope is Kinkaid is used heavily over the middle around 8-11 yards out.

Edited November 26, 2023 by machine gun kelly

[HoofHearted]

On 11/24/2023 at 5:44 PM, Beck Water said:

 

So there’s a TBN article by Mark Gaughn (who is usually pretty fact-based) saying that Dorsey ran motion or pre-snap shifts on 50% of the plays as OC in the first 10 games this season.

 

Brady increased it to 62% vs Jets

 

Under Daboll, he claims it was 39% in 2021 

I'm sure this can be confirmed by anyone with a PFF subscription. I think they track pre-snap motions. Wonder how much of that motion came on run plays vs. pass plays. We did run a bunch of short motion stuff to bring Gabe or Shakir in on a short motion into a sniffer position to run out of.

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I'm sure this can be confirmed by anyone with a PFF subscription. I think they track pre-snap motions. Wonder how much of that motion came on run plays vs. pass plays. We did run a bunch of short motion stuff to bring Gabe or Shakir in on a short motion into a sniffer position to run out of.

 

Yea, I remember noticing this with Dorsey a lot too. Almost to the point where it was such a tendency, receiver motions into the backfield or slot as a blocker, you kinda wanted to see them develop some pass plays off of it. Because teams gameplanning for the Bills had to have that as one of their run keys.

[HoofHearted]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea, I remember noticing this with Dorsey a lot too. Almost to the point where it was such a tendency, receiver motions into the backfield or slot as a blocker, you kinda wanted to see them develop some pass plays off of it. Because teams gameplanning for the Bills had to have that as one of their run keys.

They did pass out of it occasionally. 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

I'm sure this can be confirmed by anyone with a PFF subscription. I think they track pre-snap motions. Wonder how much of that motion came on run plays vs. pass plays. We did run a bunch of short motion stuff to bring Gabe or Shakir in on a short motion into a sniffer position to run out of.

 

Or the competing service - Sports Information Solutions I think?  I subscribe to neither, unfortunately.

 

Anyway, it's a very valid point that the number alone doesn't give us info on whether the motion occurred on a run play, a pass play, or some flavor of option play - and to the point of the OP I was responding to, motion may indeed never be pointless but motion can be a "tell" if self-scouting isn't on top of that.

 

I seem to remember that pre-season, the media covering the Bills was all over some creativity Dorsey showed with 2 TE sets, where Kincaid might be split then motion in tight like a run play but they'd still pass, or vice versa. 

Of course, 2 TE sets have been a bit less of an option the last 4 games and arguably a couple before that with Knox hampered by injury then on IR

 

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea, I remember noticing this with Dorsey a lot too. Almost to the point where it was such a tendency, receiver motions into the backfield or slot as a blocker, you kinda wanted to see them develop some pass plays off of it. Because teams gameplanning for the Bills had to have that as one of their run keys.

 

I don't recall receivers motioning into the backfield as blockers, can you say more about this?  Who, what, when?  We've tried bringing Gabe Davis in tight as a blocker on run plays, then having him leak out but I think we kind of "went to the well too often" on that.  I'm not saying it hasn't happened with a WR to block, just that I hadn't noted it.  Gabe, maybe, but has Shakir really come on enough as a blocker to be good there?  Maybe give Gilliam or Morris a try if that's what's wanted, they can both run routes and catch enough to present options

 

I've got a total non-sequitor of a technical question though.  When I've seen Dawson Knox in what I think is meant by that "sniffer" position (about a yard behind the line, between G and T), his stance is almost flat backed but with his arms pulled back to his belt, so his elbows are sticking out.  I assume that's what Boras is coaching him to do, but I haven't noted that from other TE.  Is there some advantage to this as a blocker?

Edited November 26, 2023 by Beck Water

[GunnerBill]

40 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

I don't recall receivers motioning into the backfield as blockers, can you say more about this?  Who, what, when?  We've tried bringing Gabe Davis in tight as a blocker on run plays, then having him leak out but I think we kind of "went to the well too often" on that.  I'm not saying it hasn't happened with a WR to block, just that I hadn't noted it.  Gabe, maybe, but has Shakir really come on enough as a blocker to be good there? 

 

Yea mainly Gabe. But Shakir to a lesser extent and even some Sherfield. They would get to the line. Josh looked at the defense, then stepped back and they motion one of the receivers in tight or into the backfield and they almost always followed that with a run. It was something I noticed a lot with Dorsey. @HoofHearted says they did occasionally pass out of it and I am sure he is right I haven't broken it down or anything but in my perception watching games when they did that it ordinarily meant run. My assumption was always that it meant they weren't changing the play but they need to tweak the formation to make the play they had called work, so they'd motion a receiver tighter before they snapped it.

[Coach Tuesday]

11 hours ago, Beck Water said:

I think there's a certain amount of what we might call "retrospective QB'ing" going on. 

I mean there is literally a term for this, where do you think Monday Morning Quarterbacking came from?  🤣🤣

[Beck Water]

30 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

I mean there is literally a term for this, where do you think Monday Morning Quarterbacking came from?  🤣🤣

 

I think I'm talking about a somewhat different phenomenon.  "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" to me is where after a specific game, the fans second guess the play calls, "that was a stupid call in this situation" and even the game plan "why did we get away from the run, it was working".  For a specific game.

 

I'm talking about a phenomenon I see where fans retrospectively critique the OC's overall approach, paying no mind to whether what they claim is actually borne out by facts.  That's where we get stuff like people claiming that Dorsey will be found to have been the Bills worst OC ever and Brady is just so dramatically different, when they're running the same scheme and even the same plays with the same players in the same roles.   Or that Dorsey rarely used motion and Brady used it a dramatically different amount, when it's 50% vs 62% which is higher, but it's not "rare" vs "lots", it's "lots" vs "more" or maybe "different".

 

That doesn't mean that Brady might not be a more effective OC, because in football the "devil is in the details" of preparation and execution and even things like sequence of how plays are called and details of how they're disguised, or what the motion is.  We all hope so!

Edited November 26, 2023 by Beck Water

[Dr. Who]

14 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think I'm talking about a somewhat different phenomenon.  "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" to me is where after a specific game, the fans second guess the play calls, "that was a stupid call in this situation" and even the game plan "why did we get away from the run, it was working".  For a specific game.

 

I'm talking about a phenomenon I see where fans retrospectively critique the OC's overall approach, paying no mind to whether what they claim is actually borne out by facts.  That's where we get stuff like people claiming that Dorsey will be found to have been the Bills worst OC ever and Brady is just so dramatically different, when they're running the same scheme and even the same plays with the same players in the same roles.   Or that Dorsey rarely used motion and Brady used it a dramatically different amount, when it's 50% vs 62% which is higher, but it's not "rare" vs "lots", it's "lots" vs "more" or maybe "different".

 

That doesn't mean that Brady might not be a more effective OC, because in football the "devil is in the details" of preparation and execution and even things like sequence of how plays are called and details of how they're disguised, or what the motion is.  We all hope so!

Other than watching football for decades, I am hardly an expert. So, this is impressionistic, rather than numbers analysis like you hard core folks do. It seemed like Dorsey's use of the run game was random or sometimes apparently stubborn to the point of absurdity (Goal line shotgun runs or not using Josh Allen on fourth-and-one when the qb sneak appeared a no-brainer.) If Brady can truly integrate the run game into some tactically meaningful sequences, that would be a significant improvement. For whatever reason, the way Dorsey called a game was predictable. Apart from that, I still think our relative weakness at WR2 is a constant drag on the offense. Hopefully, Brady will find the right folks to emphasize, week-to-week.

[Beck Water]

8 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

Other than watching football for decades, I am hardly an expert. So, this is impressionistic, rather than numbers analysis like you hard core folks do. It seemed like Dorsey's use of the run game was random or sometimes apparently stubborn to the point of absurdity (Goal line shotgun runs or not using Josh Allen on fourth-and-one when the qb sneak appeared a no-brainer.) If Brady can truly integrate the run game into some tactically meaningful sequences, that would be a significant improvement. For whatever reason, the way Dorsey called a game was predictable. Apart from that, I still think our relative weakness at WR2 is a constant drag on the offense. Hopefully, Brady will find the right folks to emphasize, week-to-week.

 

This is looking like a simultaneous “did not age well” and “clarvoyance at work”

[Rew]

@HoofHeartedCan you give some education on decision criteria for option routes in our scheme?  What are the reads, when do the receiver/QB make the read, and how clearly or how much room for ambiguity are the decisions.

 

On longer option routes the QB has to throw before the receiver even makes his decision.  Can they both be right based on when they have to make the decision?

[HoofHearted]

20 hours ago, Rew said:

@HoofHeartedCan you give some education on decision criteria for option routes in our scheme?  What are the reads, when do the receiver/QB make the read, and how clearly or how much room for ambiguity are the decisions.

 

On longer option routes the QB has to throw before the receiver even makes his decision.  Can they both be right based on when they have to make the decision?

It really just depends on the concept. I haven’t had a chance to look at it at all, but if I can find time this week to take a look I’ll do a breakdown of it on here.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Curious to see how/why the heavy runs with 6 OL/Morris found so much success vs our spread run game.

 

I plan to rewatch tmrw, so will try and get some thoughts down. 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

After rewatching the last Buffalo TD drive in the 4th quarter, it’s pretty interesting to see the progression of plays and how they stacked up:

 

We saw a mix of Big 12 personnel with Edwards as well as 12 with Morris. Buffalo runs 4 straight duo runs into the Eagles 4 man front. Looks like the Davis motion causes change of strength for the LBs, as they flop with the motion across the center.

 

Guys just do a good just of getting on bodies. The double teams on the stout DTs do just enough to allow for tight running lanes and the OL was getting to the second level cleanly handling the LBs. Make no mistake, they are not moving guys: just stale mates and that was enough. 

 

After 4 straight successful runs, the eagles counter by putting 5 DL on the field (unable to double all of these guys). Our play selection shifted (not sure if called or checked) and ended up running what looks to me like a mid zone concept. We weren’t nearly as successful here and guys just aren’t winning 1v1s. 
 

What was cool to see was how we took advantage of the 5 man front with a quick hitter screen to Diggs. After multiple plays of condensed looks, we stretched the field horizontally, jetting Davis and Dawkins out in a semi-jailbreak look. 
 

Additionally, it’s my belief that the TD was likely a result of such success in the ground game. The Lbs started cheating up and gain to much ground towards the LoS as they make their reads. #53 bites just enough on the mesh to open up the window on the bang to Davis. #24 is caught flat footed and roasted inside, having to cover the entire field from the far hash in man. 
 

A cool series of plays and an interesting back and forth from our offense. 

 

A few things that I’d like to know more about is why they like to condense these WR splits into the slot, and even behind the guard/tackle. What advantage do they feel they gain by bringing more bodies into the box? 
 

Additionally, I am curious as to why we saw so much success this drive with the duo runs out of the 12 big personnel and why we struggled to find similar gains with Kincaid in spread. 
 

Hoping to watch more tmrw. 

@HoofHearted

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by EmotionallyUnstable

[Old Coot]

On 11/16/2023 at 6:31 AM, HoofHearted said:

Just wanted to throw this out there as an outlet for some of you guys to get answers on scheme, specific plays, coaching, etc.

 

What I envision this thread being is a place where you guys can come ask questions and I can help provide answers all in one place instead of a lot of answers being buried 12 pages deep in sporadic threads every week. I’ll try my best to get to everyone’s questions as quickly as I can.

 

What I do not want this thread to devolve into is a gossip/fire whoever/hot take of the week type of deal.

 

I want this to be specifically about learning more about the game so if you’ve got something else, respectfully, take it to another thread. Thanks!

 

Fire away!

Hoof,

 

I (& likely the forum) would be interested in your take on the miscommunication between Josh & Gabe. Who is at fault (if anyone)? Thanks.

[HoofHearted]

8 minutes ago, Old Coot said:

Hoof,

 

I (& likely the forum) would be interested in your take on the miscommunication between Josh & Gabe. Who is at fault (if anyone)? Thanks.

Josh. Gabe got inside leverage so he ran to grass like he's suppose to.

[HoofHearted]

17 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

After rewatching the last Buffalo TD drive in the 4th quarter, it’s pretty interesting to see the progression of plays and how they stacked up:

 

We saw a mix of Big 12 personnel with Edwards as well as 12 with Morris. Buffalo runs 4 straight duo runs into the Eagles 4 man front. Looks like the Davis motion causes change of strength for the LBs, as they flop with the motion across the center.

 

Guys just do a good just of getting on bodies. The double teams on the stout DTs do just enough to allow for tight running lanes and the OL was getting to the second level cleanly handling the LBs. Make no mistake, they are not moving guys: just stale mates and that was enough. 

 

After 4 straight successful runs, the eagles counter by putting 5 DL on the field (unable to double all of these guys). Our play selection shifted (not sure if called or checked) and ended up running what looks to me like a mid zone concept. We weren’t nearly as successful here and guys just aren’t winning 1v1s. 
 

What was cool to see was how we took advantage of the 5 man front with a quick hitter screen to Diggs. After multiple plays of condensed looks, we stretched the field horizontally, jetting Davis and Dawkins out in a semi-jailbreak look. 
 

Additionally, it’s my belief that the TD was likely a result of such success in the ground game. The Lbs started cheating up and gain to much ground towards the LoS as they make their reads. #53 bites just enough on the mesh to open up the window on the bang to Davis. #24 is caught flat footed and roasted inside, having to cover the entire field from the far hash in man. 
 

A cool series of plays and an interesting back and forth from our offense. 

 

A few things that I’d like to know more about is why they like to condense these WR splits into the slot, and even behind the guard/tackle. What advantage do they feel they gain by bringing more bodies into the box? 
 

Additionally, I am curious as to why we saw so much success this drive with the duo runs out of the 12 big personnel and why we struggled to find similar gains with Kincaid in spread. 
 

Hoping to watch more tmrw. 

@HoofHearted

 

Just for clarification purposes the four plays you are referring to were ISO, Inside Zone, ISO, and ISO in that order and then the fifth play was Mid Zone as you said. The whole concept behind that set is to force a corner into having to be a C gap fitter while also ensuring our backs a 1v1 vs a Corner. Still haven't had time this week to watch the A22 so I don't have an answer for your second question at the moment, but hopefully I'll be able to get to it at some point.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

4 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Just for clarification purposes the four plays you are referring to were ISO, Inside Zone, ISO, and ISO in that order and then the fifth play was Mid Zone as you said. The whole concept behind that set is to force a corner into having to be a C gap fitter while also ensuring our backs a 1v1 vs a Corner. Still haven't had time this week to watch the A22 so I don't have an answer for your second question at the moment, but hopefully I'll be able to get to it at some point.

Any tips on give aways as to how this is distinguishable between duo and ISO? 
 

From what I saw, it appears we were getting two pairs of double teams working to the stacked backers. What is the iso component here? Is the ISO referring to the WR on the CB? 
 

Appreciate the info!

[HoofHearted]

19 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Any tips on give aways as to how this is distinguishable between duo and ISO? 
 

From what I saw, it appears we were getting two pairs of double teams working to the stacked backers. What is the iso component here? Is the ISO referring to the WR on the CB? 
 

Appreciate the info!

Tight end will block down on Duo and sniffer will fit outside. If the tight end kicks EMLOS, OL blocks covered to uncovered, and sniffer inserts its ISO

[EmotionallyUnstable]

53 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Tight end will block down on Duo and sniffer will fit outside. If the tight end kicks EMLOS, OL blocks covered to uncovered, and sniffer inserts its ISO

So essentially it’s the same play with the difference between terminology based off of the defensive alignment?
 

7T DE would give you a duo but because they brought the safety into the C gap and showed a 9T you’re calling it ISO? Either way you’re getting a 2v2 game with the TE/WR on DE/S.

 

In terms of calling this play, would they even distinguish a difference between the two, and simply use a single call with the defensive front and blocking rules indicating what the TE/WR are doing based on alignment?

 

Interesting…I never thought of it as ISO since my ideas of the play generally consists of a FB or TE being the lead back but in this case it’s a WR

Edited November 30, 2023 by EmotionallyUnstable

[EmotionallyUnstable]

6 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Josh. Gabe got inside leverage so he ran to grass like he's suppose to.

Romo said they looked like they were playing man to man. To the field that appeared to be the case, but were the Eagles in C2 match to the boundary? Slay was on Diggs in the slot but passed off the out to the boundary corner to run with Davis.

[HoofHearted]

16 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Romo said they looked like they were playing man to man. To the field that appeared to be the case, but were the Eagles in C2 match to the boundary? Slay was on Diggs in the slot but passed off the out to the boundary corner to run with Davis.

No, it was just combo coverage. Man with switch rules.

[GoBills808]

Just now, HoofHearted said:

No, it was just combo coverage. Man with switch rules.

They were sloppy on the switch tho right

[HoofHearted]

34 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

So essentially it’s the same play with the difference between terminology based off of the defensive alignment?
 

7T DE would give you a duo but because they brought the safety into the C gap and showed a 9T you’re calling it ISO? Either way you’re getting a 2v2 game with the TE/WR on DE/S.

 

In terms of calling this play, would they even distinguish a difference between the two, and simply use a single call with the defensive front and blocking rules indicating what the TE/WR are doing based on alignment?

 

Interesting…I never thought of it as ISO since my ideas of the play generally consists of a FB or TE being the lead back but in this case it’s a WR

It’s different blocking rules, so no. They are two different calls.

[Beck Water]

I'll play resurrectionist on this thread.

 

@HoofHearted & others, wonder if you could kindly do a break down on what the coverage should have been on the "Toney Offside" play?

 

We all saw how open Kelsey was.  It's my impression that Christian Benford was supposed to be covering Kelsey and Toney picked him hard.

1) Is that corrrect or should Cam Lewis/someone else have covered Kelsey when he crossed in front of them?

2) If it should have been Benford, what should Benford have done to avoid getting "boxed out" of the play like he was?

 

Apologize for not the best image quality or sequence, but this is what I'm talking about

0.  Dane Jackson on Toney, but releases to take up Noah Grey.  Kelsey has free release but looks to me like Benford has him

[Edit: that's not Dane Jackson, it's Taron Johnson.   Brain fart on my part]

1.  Lewis on Toney, but Benford right there - is Benford expecting Lewis to leave Toney to him and Lewis cover Kelsey?

2. My best try at catching when Toney turns his back and slams his body into Benford

 

Again, apologize for not better pics

 

And please folks, let's NOT talk about the pre-snap penalty sitch here, I'm hoping to get some insight into what the coverage was on the play and what went wrong to leave Kelsey so open.
 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Beck Water
correct player

[Augie]

13 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

I'll play resurrectionist on this thread.

 

@HoofHearted & others, wonder if you could kindly do a break down on what the coverage should have been on the "Toney Offside" play?

 

We all saw how open Kelsey was.  It's my impression that Christian Benford was supposed to be covering Kelsey and Toney picked him hard.

1) Is that corrrect or should Cam Lewis/someone else have covered Kelsey when he crossed in front of them?

2) If it should have been Benford, what should Benford have done to avoid getting "boxed out" of the play like he was?

 

Apologize for not the best image quality or sequence, but this is what I'm talking about

0.  Dane Jackson on Toney, but releases to take up Noah Grey.  Kelsey has free release but looks to me like Benford has him

1.  Lewis on Toney, but Benford right there - is Benford expecting Lewis to leave Toney to him and Lewis cover Kelsey?

2. My best try at catching when Toney turns his back and slams his body into Benford

 

Again, apologize for not better pics

 

And please folks, let's NOT talk about the pre-snap penalty sitch here, I'm hoping to get some insight into what the coverage was on the play and what went wrong to leave Kelsey so open.
 

 

 

I’m not sure what to say other than that is so NOT what it felt like to me at the time. Even watching replays, it didn't look this simple. My eyes are easily deceived in the moment.

[HoofHearted]

16 hours ago, Beck Water said:

I'll play resurrectionist on this thread.

 

@HoofHearted & others, wonder if you could kindly do a break down on what the coverage should have been on the "Toney Offside" play?

 

We all saw how open Kelsey was.  It's my impression that Christian Benford was supposed to be covering Kelsey and Toney picked him hard.

1) Is that corrrect or should Cam Lewis/someone else have covered Kelsey when he crossed in front of them?

2) If it should have been Benford, what should Benford have done to avoid getting "boxed out" of the play like he was?

 

Apologize for not the best image quality or sequence, but this is what I'm talking about

0.  Dane Jackson on Toney, but releases to take up Noah Grey.  Kelsey has free release but looks to me like Benford has him

1.  Lewis on Toney, but Benford right there - is Benford expecting Lewis to leave Toney to him and Lewis cover Kelsey?

2. My best try at catching when Toney turns his back and slams his body into Benford

 

Again, apologize for not better pics

 

And please folks, let's NOT talk about the pre-snap penalty sitch here, I'm hoping to get some insight into what the coverage was on the play and what went wrong to leave Kelsey so open.
 

 

It was Man Free coverage. They were playing a form of combo coverage on the bunch set (Johnson takes first to flat, Cam takes first in/vertical or second out, and Benford takes first out/vertical or second in). This concept is tough because the verticals don't declare at the LoS and so it puts your rules into conflict. You either sink with the verticals and switch them off or sit on them and play them man regardless of what they do at the breakpoint. Cam sits and Benford drifts. McDermott said they got picked in his presser so it leads me to believe they weren't suppose to switch them off once they declared vertical. Benford can't sink and instead needs to just sit on the route and play catch technique, collision, and stay under the pick.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

16 hours ago, Beck Water said:

I'll play resurrectionist on this thread.

 

@HoofHearted & others, wonder if you could kindly do a break down on what the coverage should have been on the "Toney Offside" play?

 

We all saw how open Kelsey was.  It's my impression that Christian Benford was supposed to be covering Kelsey and Toney picked him hard.

1) Is that corrrect or should Cam Lewis/someone else have covered Kelsey when he crossed in front of them?

2) If it should have been Benford, what should Benford have done to avoid getting "boxed out" of the play like he was?

 

Apologize for not the best image quality or sequence, but this is what I'm talking about

0.  Dane Jackson on Toney, but releases to take up Noah Grey.  Kelsey has free release but looks to me like Benford has him

1.  Lewis on Toney, but Benford right there - is Benford expecting Lewis to leave Toney to him and Lewis cover Kelsey?

2. My best try at catching when Toney turns his back and slams his body into Benford

 

Again, apologize for not better pics

 

And please folks, let's NOT talk about the pre-snap penalty sitch here, I'm hoping to get some insight into what the coverage was on the play and what went wrong to leave Kelsey so open.
 

 

 

1 - Depends if they wanted to switch pre-snap in that situation.  My assumption is no- man is man.  When they stack like this though you might need to switch in the future if you see a similar look.  

2 - To avoid getting boxed out you try and adjust your depth so you are deeper than lewis when kelce makes his cut.

[Beck Water]

29 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

It was Man Free coverage. They were playing a form of combo coverage on the bunch set (Johnson takes first to flat, Cam takes first in/vertical or second out, and Benford takes first out/vertical or second in). This concept is tough because the verticals don't declare at the LoS and so it puts your rules into conflict. You either sink with the verticals and switch them off or sit on them and play them man regardless of what they do at the breakpoint. Cam sits and Benford drifts. McDermott said they got picked in his presser so it leads me to believe they weren't suppose to switch them off once they declared vertical. Benford can't sink and instead needs to just sit on the route and play catch technique, collision, and stay under the pick.

 

Thanks, that's very clear on the coverage responsibility aspect.  I missed that in McDermott's presser.

 

How I interpret what you wrote is that Benford drifted downfield anticipating that Kelce might go vertical, and he should have stayed closer to Kelce ("sit on the route") and the LOS ("underneath the pick").   Is this correct?

 

If you're willing to explain, though, what does "catch technique" mean?

 

I had the feeling that Reid/Nagy must have studied our coverage carefully and mapped out how to cause confliction.  I can see where Benford would want to give Kelce a cushion to avoid getting blown by if Kelce did go vertical.

I hope McDermott and Co are working overtime on resolving because Sirianni was certainly taking notes and, as Milano put it in plain words about McDaniel and the Dolphins, "they want to make you run into each other"

Edit: OK this may be above and beyond, but you're able to deduce a lot from body position etc - do you think it's possible that there was confusion between the DBs, where Benford expected Lewis to switch while Lewis expected Benford to stay with Kelce?  Benford stays looking at Kelce, which is why I guessed that was still his man.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

Good Morning!  Bumping this thread in the hope of getting one of our X's and O's guys to talk about this.

(Happy New Year @HoofHearted!)

 

I have questions but it will take me a while and some examples to get to them.

 

In Jim Kubiak's usual column assessing QB play in TBN, he talks about the challenge posed by the Patriots "overload approach" on defense

 

Since it's paywalled and I don't know what the state of TBN's trial subscription may be:

 

Two examples of this he discusses are "phantom rushers" on the edge, forcing the OTs to slide out to account for them, but actually they didn't rush and maintained 6 men in coverage while isolating Morse and the guards against 4 'bull rushers'.
 

Quote

It is clear the Patriots intended to occupy the Bills’ offensive tackles with phantom-rushers as they slid out for the potential blitz. Those defenders didn’t rush, they simply created a need to account for them. This isolated left guard Connor McGovern, center Mitch Morse and rookie right guard O’Cyrus Torrence to protect the powerful bull rushers. It was a smart way to attack Allen. This creative scheme made Allen uncomfortable as there was no pocket for him to step into, and the pressure bore down on him from the inside as New England was prepared for him to flush to the right or left. This also allowed the Patriots to keep six defenders in the secondary.

 

In one screenshot example he gives, Allen had several options open short, but was overlooking them to look downfield

[credit to Kubiak for the screenshot.  This is the play that resulted in a fumble as Allen attempted to escape and improvise]

 

He also talks about the Patriots overloading a section of the offensive line, which if I'm not mistaken is a strategy the Bengals used very successfully against us in the Division round last season, again this season, and possibly also used by Jacksonville?
 

Quote

The Patriots attacked Allen with the strategy of overloading one side of the Bills’ offensive line. Here, they brought three rushers to Allen’s left as the Bills’ five-man protection scheme was sliding to his right. Left tackle Deon Dawkins was in a bind. His job was to secure the inside gap, which he did, but the Patriots also blitzed linebacker Mack Wilson Sr. (No. 3) outside of Dawkins. This scheme would have required the Bills to slide their protection back to the left, but that would have opened up the Bills to a variety of potential blitzes from the side that had more defenders.

 

Quote

Allen was pressured by a free rusher, despite the fact the Bills had five blockers and the Patriots only rushed four. Allen did the only thing he could, throw the ball into the ground before taking a sack. He is learning not to press too hard, and this has made all the difference in the Bills' ability to to win close games.

[credit to Kubiak for the screenshot]

 

My X's and O's questions are:

1) particularly in the case of the overload blitz where the D creates pressure with 4 or even 3 rushers while maintaining coverage by overloading only one side of the line, are there any OL protection calls which would allow the offense to better handle this?  It seems to be a strategy that has been successful against the Bills offense for some time and since it's a "copy cat league", well....

2) ditto in the case of the 'phantom edge rusher'?

3) In a section I didn't quote, Kubiak says it looked as though the Pats were in Man coverage, but they were actually in a form of "Match" coverage.  What is "Match" coverage and how does it differ from Man?

 

Thanks!

Edited January 4 by Beck Water

[HoofHearted]

10 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

My X's and O's questions are:

1) particularly in the case of the overload blitz where the D creates pressure with 4 or even 3 rushers while maintaining coverage by overloading only one side of the line, are there any OL protection calls which would allow the offense to better handle this?  It seems to be a strategy that has been successful against the Bills offense for some time and since it's a "copy cat league", well....

2) ditto in the case of the 'phantom edge rusher'?

3) In a section I didn't quote, Kubiak says it looked as though the Pats were in Man coverage, but they were actually in a form of "Match" coverage.  What is "Match" coverage and how does it differ from Man?

 

Thanks!

1) Overloads are successful because they almost always guarantee one on ones vs the OL regardless of protection. There's nothing really from a protection standpoint that would be better against these, but the offense should be looking to take advantage of that opposite side because the defense is essentially a guy short. It should create a natural through in the pocket for Josh to exploit, but in addition a large number of these overloads are coming from zone concepts where the defense is dropping DL into coverage. That's where we need to do a better job of seeing and exploiting those match-ups.

 

2) Same thing with the "phantom edge rusher" - they're doing it just to occupy a guy to create 1 on 1's elsewhere. Same advantages for the offense though, if they're just going to sit a guy at the LoS and have him essentially do nothing then there's going to be opportunities in the pass game to take advantage of the fewer numbers in coverage.

 

3) There are match variation of basically every coverage out there these days - so without seeing a specific example I wouldn't be able to tell you.