Anyone at the game, or with access to all 22 replay..Is anyone getting open??

[BearNorth]

58 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

Diggs is our Kelce. He’s always open. 

true, but also about a half foot shorter and 50 pounds lighter.

[K-9]

As Allen has explained, Diggs is the first read in most of their pass concepts, he gets open far more often than not, so it shouldn’t be a surprise that’s where Josh chooses to go most often. 

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Pass 1 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read.

Pass 2 - Went 12 personnel. Giants played 3 to it - Corners playing MOD - Allen picked his matchup and threw to Diggs.

Pass 3 - Ran Deep Crossers vs Man Coverage - they tried to Double Stef - throw to Gabe - it was open but he tripped. Diggs and Knox also open.

Pass 4 - Ran a Dragon concept vs Cover 2 - hit Diggs on the Glance - he was the first read. Had Cook open to the flat and probably would have had Morris open on the Corner route to the field as the corner drove the stop underneath.

Pass 5 - Went empty and hit Gabe on a stop to the boundary flat. Hitch Seam Concept vs. Cover 3.

Pass 6 - PAP designed for Sherfield on a deep over - cut his route too shallow and should have drifted sooner. He was wide open. Diggs also got open on the comeback to the field. Curious if Josh got confused here - Defense should 3 pre-snap and rolled 2. Even with the shallower path by Sherfield Josh can and has made that throw before. Additionally if he just stops and throws it back across the formation he has Cook wide open in the flat with a lead blocker in Edwards backside with a Corner as the only defender close to it and he was 15 yards away.

Pass 7 -PAP Snag 7 concept - reading the overhang defender - he sank with Diggs so Josh threw the arrow to Gabe - Gabe fumbled. Had Knox as an outlet backside.

Pass 8 - PAP Deep Cross concept vs. Cover 3 which turns into man for the corners because of the offensive formation. Hit Diggs - Harty got hemmed up with the corner otherwise he could have blown the top off that thing because MoF Safety played Cheat to Diggs. Also had Murray as an outlet on the play.

Pass 9 - PAP. This is the mesh concept with the vertical by Gabe that everyone is talking about. Allen sees single high coverage pre-snap. Safety did a good job hanging on the hash as long as possible to muddy Allens read - wanted to hit Gabe which is why he waited so long because he wanted the Safety to declare. Once Safety declared and he saw Cover 2 he immediately looked for Diggs and let it rip even though he had a wide open Shakir on the opposite side.

Pass 10 - HBO Concept vs Quarters - took the quick throw to Diggs before anything else really had an opportunity to develop. Would have had Knox to the middle of the field and Gabe on a deep curl if he wanted it.

Pass 11 - Ran the same Snag 7 concept to the field against Cover 6. Looked Diggs on a slant backside first - wasn't there and had to scramble to his left. Had Knox open to the flat on a whip route with the defense dropping to the sticks on third and long. If he had looked trips side first as he should have he'd probably have hit Gabe on the Curl for a first down.

Pass 12 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read and it should have been handed off. There was no play there with the defense playing 1.

Pass 13 - Mesh vs Cover 3 - Cover 1 made a comment about Allen potentially thinking it was 1, but every defender is playing with zone eyes so I'd highly doubt it. Had Cook and should have thrown to Cook. Instead got pressured and threw it in the dirt to Diggs. With a clean pocket he also had Gabe on the backside deep out vs the sinking corner.

Pass 14 - Basically ran a one man concept here on 3rd and forever. Defense played Cover 3 - Sherfield ran the collector to pull the MoF Safety and Diggs ran an out and up vs a Trap 3 look. They got exactly the look they wanted - Diggs beat his guy but pressure forced Josh out of the pocket and the play wasn't really designed to go anywhere else. He forced a throw off-balance and underthrew it.

Pass 15 - PAP. Another two man route concept here. Diggs on the Glance and Sherfield on the Deep Out to the field vs. Cover 3. Curious about the condensed split by Diggs here, but the backers didn't bite and there was no window. Allen should have thrown the Out to the field.

Pass 16 - Flood concept vs. Cover 1 Rat. Looked like Josh got confused by the double on Diggs initially - checked the MoF Safety to ensure it was 1, but then pocket broke down. Diggs worked scramble drill and got himself open. Allen overthrew it.

Pass 17 - Went Empty and ran two verts backside to Cover 3 which was disguised as 0. Josh was definitely thrown off by the disguise. By the time he recognized 1 high the pocket had broken down and he threw it away to the field. Looked like Murray also ran the wrong route on the play otherwise Shakir would have been open to the flat.

Pass 18 - Ran Curl Arrow to the field vs Quarters and Hitch Seam to the boundary vs. 2. Looked Diggs first - had Harty on the Curl behind it wide open, but never saw it. Pocket broke down and he ended up throwing it away on scramble drill.

Pass 19 - PAP - Mirrored Deep Curls vs Cover 3 - open on both sides - threw to Diggs.

Pass 20 - Had a Post/Dig concept working the middle of the field vs Cover 6 - threw to Knox and it got picked. The frustrating part is if he holds a second later the Safety is driving the Dig and Knox would have had a walk-in touchdown on the Post. Murray also open as the outlet.

 

That's every pass from the first half of the game. Guys were definitely getting open. There's definitely a lot being schemed for Diggs, but there's also a fair amount being schemed for other guys as well. Allen finds Diggs immediately whenever anything breaks down which is understandable. Also rushed some stuff which is understandable given the consistent pressure he saw. As a side note Dorsey's play calling was impressive. Every route concept outside of the Flood vs Cover 1 was had an answer to take advantage of the coverage they saw from the defense.

 

This is interesting because you mention quite a few pass protection breakdowns. The Giants have one of the worst pressure rates in the league, I believe bottom 3. Is this a sign that our pass protection isn't quite as good as we were led to believe over the first 4 weeks? Two games in a row now our OL has looked shaky.

 

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

He also had Shakir wide open on an out on the play I bolded that probably would have gotten at least 15 yards.  

 

You can find plays like that in every offense in every game, usually more than once. Allen is following the rules of the play and sometimes it just so happens that a WR ends up wide open while unfortunately not being part of the progression. It seems that a general rule built into this offense is "if things break down, look to Diggs first." A lot of still frame all-22 analysis is not being entirely fair to what the QB has to process in a matter of 3 seconds on every play after the snap.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by HappyDays

[Big Turk]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is interesting because you mention quite a few pass protection breakdowns. The Giants have one of the worst pressure rates in the league, I believe bottom 3. Is this a sign that our pass protection isn't quite as good as we were led to believe over the first 4 weeks? Two games in a row now our OL has looked shaky.

 

You can find plays like that in every offense in every game, usually more than once. Allen is following the rules of the play and sometimes it just so happens that a WR ends up wide open while unfortunately not being part of the progression. It seems that a general rule built into this offense is "if things break down, look to Diggs first." A lot of still frame all-22 analysis is not being entirely fair to what the QB has to process in a matter of 3 seconds on every play after the snap.

 

Yes, that's fair, but I also take issue with spacing on some of these plays.  There was one play in particular where 4 Bills were within 10 yards of each other in the pass patterns with a bunch of defenders all in the same area too...it was literally like the Bills said "We want to force you defend as few blades of grass as possible!" while there were huge open areas of the field with nothing but space.

 

This isn't the first game it's been mentioned either...a few times you'll see a ball end up being incomplete and 2 receivers will be literally right next to each other or even sometimes he will complete it and it's hard to tell who he was actually throwing to since both receivers are in the same general area.

[Rubes]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is interesting because you mention quite a few pass protection breakdowns. The Giants have one of the worst pressure rates in the league, I believe bottom 3. Is this a sign that our pass protection isn't quite as good as we were led to believe over the first 4 weeks? Two games in a row now our OL has looked shaky.

 

 

I can't say for sure, but my recollection is that our breakdowns are isolated. That is, one guy blows his assignment and everything gets thrown off. A good example was the play where Cook completely whiffed on his guy, which forced Allen to scramble and improvise. The other linemen were doing their jobs, just takes one guy messing up to screw up the play. I think that probably was happening several times.

 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Every QB misses guys, but is it possible this offense is too complex? None of our backup QBs seem to be able to learn it in one summer, Josh seems to struggle at times too. 

[Rubes]

2 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Yes, that's fair, but I also take issue with spacing on some of these plays.  There was one play in particular where 4 Bills were within 10 yards of each other in the pass patterns with a bunch of defenders all in the same area too...it was literally like the Bills said "We want to force you defend as few blades of grass as possible!" while there were huge open areas of the field with nothing but space.

 

This isn't the first game it's been mentioned either...a few times you'll see a ball end up being incomplete and 2 receivers will be literally right next to each other or even sometimes he will complete it and it's hard to tell who he was actually throwing to since both receivers are in the same general area.

 

Seems to me that this is more likely to be a problem with guys not knowing their assignments as opposed to poor play design by Dorsey.

 

[Beck Water]

6 hours ago, Rich Stadium Original said:

 Much has been made of the numbers of targets for Diggs in the Giants game. On the broadcast, looked like they were playing a mostly cover 2/ 2 deep look with man underneath.

 Diggs mentioned after the game he had never been double teamed more in his career. With Kincaid out, the Bills played as much 11 personnel as I had seen all year.

Which begs the question...were any of the Bills receivers able to beat their man one on one besides Diggs?

 In some of the wide angle replay shots I saw, (which were few) there was little to no separation from Bills receivers and the DBs.

  So...is this a function of target fixation by Allen? Allen afraid to routinely throw into a tight window, or "throw somebody open" for fear of an interception? A bad scheme, with a terrible route tree / play call based on what they are facing on defense? Or a lack of talent on your receivers just not getting open?

 

So from what I've seen so far, the answer to your question is "sometimes".

 

There were occasions when Josh was fixated on Diggs, and should have thrown to a wide open Shakir or led a "mailflag up" Knox (for example)

There were occasions when Josh should have immediately thrown to an open flats receiver (usually Cook) who had loads of green in front of him, and instead extended the play and tried to hit Diggs

 

There were also a number of occasions in which no one was getting open against man.  Too many.  Huge change from 2020 and even 2021 in which, unless holding were involved, you could bet on Brown or Saunders and Beasley or McKenzie to get open - especially McKenzie.  Harty is supposed to be quicker and faster and run better routes than McKenzie, and that's actually on film from 2021, but so far I'm not seeing it.

 

Just now, Rubes said:

 

Seems to me that this is more likely to be a problem with guys not knowing their assignments as opposed to poor play design by Dorsey.

 

 

I think there's some of both, actually.  I don't think the receivers are being coached to run routes to optimal depth to stretch out the defense.

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, Rubes said:

 

Seems to me that this is more likely to be a problem with guys not knowing their assignments as opposed to poor play design by Dorsey.

 

 

Unlikely when it's happening with this type of frequency.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

It's what the Patriots call it. There's a thousand different terms for route concepts. That's why it's so hard for casual fans to learn the game. There's no common language.

 

YOU CAN SAY THAT AGAIN!  and not just casual fans - even fans who take it seriously and work at it.

[Rubes]

1 minute ago, Big Turk said:

 

Unlikely when it's happening with this type of frequency.

 

I'd have to disagree, then. I think we've seen generally good play design by Dorsey. I think the offense is pretty complex and some guys may just not be picking up the nuances well.

 

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, Rich Stadium Original said:

...totle should be all 22....fingers big, keyboard small...

 

You can edit that title.  Just edit your OP post, and a window will open that allows you to edit the title.

[Big Turk]

4 minutes ago, Rubes said:

 

I'd have to disagree, then. I think we've seen generally good play design by Dorsey. I think the offense is pretty complex and some guys may just not be picking up the nuances well.

 

 

I mean there are times when its Diggs and Knox or Diggs and Davis.  Are you saying they don't know what route they are supposed to run?

[Rubes]

1 minute ago, Big Turk said:

 

I mean there are times when its Diggs and Knox or Diggs and Davis.  Are you saying they don't know what route they are supposed to run?

 

I'm not into the hard core details of offensive passing game strategy, but I know WRs have to make decisions on the fly as to the route they run based on the coverage that they are seeing...or that they think they see. So yeah, maybe there are times when defenses do a great job at disguising coverages or otherwise doing things that mess with WR decision-making. We have no idea, really, what exactly is happening out there or who is messing up, but I could certainly see Dorsey reviewing tape with those guys and pointing out that one of them reacted the wrong way to what was being shown by the defense.

 

[Mango]

I do and watched all the offensive snaps today. The whole passing game was a mixed bag. It was odd. The best way to describe it was unfocused and unsettled. 

There were: 
- Bad decisions and open receivers at times from the QB. 
- Missed blocks from the OL

- Diggs had a couple mental mistakes with his Offside and poor decision on a screen

- WR didn't help Allen out on a couple of scrambles. 

 

There were some positives from the OL in run blocking when we ran the ball from under center. 

[Beck Water]

3 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Pass 1 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read.

Pass 2 - Went 12 personnel. Giants played 3 to it - Corners playing MOD - Allen picked his matchup and threw to Diggs.

Pass 3 - Ran Deep Crossers vs Man Coverage - they tried to Double Stef - throw to Gabe - it was open but he tripped. Diggs and Knox also open.

Pass 4 - Ran a Dragon concept vs Cover 2 - hit Diggs on the Glance - he was the first read. Had Cook open to the flat and probably would have had Morris open on the Corner route to the field as the corner drove the stop underneath.

Pass 5 - Went empty and hit Gabe on a stop to the boundary flat. Hitch Seam Concept vs. Cover 3.

Pass 6 - PAP designed for Sherfield on a deep over - cut his route too shallow and should have drifted sooner. He was wide open. Diggs also got open on the comeback to the field. Curious if Josh got confused here - Defense should 3 pre-snap and rolled 2. Even with the shallower path by Sherfield Josh can and has made that throw before. Additionally if he just stops and throws it back across the formation he has Cook wide open in the flat with a lead blocker in Edwards backside with a Corner as the only defender close to it and he was 15 yards away.

Pass 7 -PAP Snag 7 concept - reading the overhang defender - he sank with Diggs so Josh threw the arrow to Gabe - Gabe fumbled. Had Knox as an outlet backside.

Pass 8 - PAP Deep Cross concept vs. Cover 3 which turns into man for the corners because of the offensive formation. Hit Diggs - Harty got hemmed up with the corner otherwise he could have blown the top off that thing because MoF Safety played Cheat to Diggs. Also had Murray as an outlet on the play.

Pass 9 - PAP. This is the mesh concept with the vertical by Gabe that everyone is talking about. Allen sees single high coverage pre-snap. Safety did a good job hanging on the hash as long as possible to muddy Allens read - wanted to hit Gabe which is why he waited so long because he wanted the Safety to declare. Once Safety declared and he saw Cover 2 he immediately looked for Diggs and let it rip even though he had a wide open Shakir on the opposite side.

Pass 10 - HBO Concept vs Quarters - took the quick throw to Diggs before anything else really had an opportunity to develop. Would have had Knox to the middle of the field and Gabe on a deep curl if he wanted it.

Pass 11 - Ran the same Snag 7 concept to the field against Cover 6. Looked Diggs on a slant backside first - wasn't there and had to scramble to his left. Had Knox open to the flat on a whip route with the defense dropping to the sticks on third and long. If he had looked trips side first as he should have he'd probably have hit Gabe on the Curl for a first down.

Pass 12 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read and it should have been handed off. There was no play there with the defense playing 1.

Pass 13 - Mesh vs Cover 3 - Cover 1 made a comment about Allen potentially thinking it was 1, but every defender is playing with zone eyes so I'd highly doubt it. Had Cook and should have thrown to Cook. Instead got pressured and threw it in the dirt to Diggs. With a clean pocket he also had Gabe on the backside deep out vs the sinking corner.

Pass 14 - Basically ran a one man concept here on 3rd and forever. Defense played Cover 3 - Sherfield ran the collector to pull the MoF Safety and Diggs ran an out and up vs a Trap 3 look. They got exactly the look they wanted - Diggs beat his guy but pressure forced Josh out of the pocket and the play wasn't really designed to go anywhere else. He forced a throw off-balance and underthrew it.

Pass 15 - PAP. Another two man route concept here. Diggs on the Glance and Sherfield on the Deep Out to the field vs. Cover 3. Curious about the condensed split by Diggs here, but the backers didn't bite and there was no window. Allen should have thrown the Out to the field.

Pass 16 - Flood concept vs. Cover 1 Rat. Looked like Josh got confused by the double on Diggs initially - checked the MoF Safety to ensure it was 1, but then pocket broke down. Diggs worked scramble drill and got himself open. Allen overthrew it.

Pass 17 - Went Empty and ran two verts backside to Cover 3 which was disguised as 0. Josh was definitely thrown off by the disguise. By the time he recognized 1 high the pocket had broken down and he threw it away to the field. Looked like Murray also ran the wrong route on the play otherwise Shakir would have been open to the flat.

Pass 18 - Ran Curl Arrow to the field vs Quarters and Hitch Seam to the boundary vs. 2. Looked Diggs first - had Harty on the Curl behind it wide open, but never saw it. Pocket broke down and he ended up throwing it away on scramble drill.

Pass 19 - PAP - Mirrored Deep Curls vs Cover 3 - open on both sides - threw to Diggs.

Pass 20 - Had a Post/Dig concept working the middle of the field vs Cover 6 - threw to Knox and it got picked. The frustrating part is if he holds a second later the Safety is driving the Dig and Knox would have had a walk-in touchdown on the Post. Murray also open as the outlet.

 

That's every pass from the first half of the game. Guys were definitely getting open. There's definitely a lot being schemed for Diggs, but there's also a fair amount being schemed for other guys as well. Allen finds Diggs immediately whenever anything breaks down which is understandable. Also rushed some stuff which is understandable given the consistent pressure he saw. As a side note Dorsey's play calling was impressive. Every route concept outside of the Flood vs Cover 1 was had an answer to take advantage of the coverage they saw from the defense.

 

Thanks for doing this, @HoofHearted.

 

So roughly binning this....first half 18 pass plays (2 pass plays nullified by penalty).  9 rush attempts.

8 completions (44%)

8 misreads/successful disguise or decision issues from Josh (44%) where he had a plausible open choice

3 'receiver' errors (receiver = anyone running route in this context, including RB or TE), including a fumble by Davis

1 (or possibly 2) play call or play design issues

(18 pass attempts so I assume 2 were no play due to penalty)

 

I thought I saw more than 1 play where there wasn't a lot of separation (no one open) but maybe someone was "NFL open" and I am mistaken

 

Question: what do you see from Harty?  Is he executing routes/getting open?

 

2nd half was 12 pass attempts, 11 completions and 20 rush attempts

23 minutes ago, Rubes said:

 

I'm not into the hard core details of offensive passing game strategy, but I know WRs have to make decisions on the fly as to the route they run based on the coverage that they are seeing...or that they think they see. So yeah, maybe there are times when defenses do a great job at disguising coverages or otherwise doing things that mess with WR decision-making. We have no idea, really, what exactly is happening out there or who is messing up, but I could certainly see Dorsey reviewing tape with those guys and pointing out that one of them reacted the wrong way to what was being shown by the defense.

 

 

I could be wrong here, but to my understanding the WR don't always have decisions to make.  Some routes are option routes, and some are fixed.  I have the impression that Daboll in 2021 and Dorsey in 2022 ran a lot more option routes - which is probably fine when your WR are Diggs, Beasley and Sanders, and possibly not always a good idea when your WR are McKenzie and Davis.

 

I thought something was said about Dorsey transitioning to more fixed routes and fewer options, although Diggs appears to run options.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

51 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

This is interesting because you mention quite a few pass protection breakdowns. The Giants have one of the worst pressure rates in the league, I believe bottom 3. Is this a sign that our pass protection isn't quite as good as we were led to believe over the first 4 weeks? Two games in a row now our OL has looked shaky.

 

I think there are a couple things.

- @HoofHearted mentions protection breakdowns several times in concert with successful disguised coverage. If Allen is hanging onto the ball a little longer waiting for the coverage picture to clarify, or waiting for a deeper route to develop, protections are gonna break down more than if he's making rapid, good decisions and getting the ball out in rhythm.

 

-Wink Martindale loves him his exotic blitz packages designed to confuse protection, and in this case, he may have had a lot of inside info on OL tendencies (esp. Dawkins, Morse, and Brown) courtesy of Bobby Johnson, to help him out in his designs

 

-Sometimes the defense is gonna win, and the QB has to be willing to take the outlet - which Josh did not do in the first half

 

-I've been told that OL play and DL play are significantly a "state of mind".  If you are fired up and believe you can beat the opponent, you play better.  For whatever reason, I think our OL has been playing de-energized the last 2 games, until after the scrum near the end of the 3Q.  Then they seemed to get some fire.

[HoofHearted]

3 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is interesting because you mention quite a few pass protection breakdowns. The Giants have one of the worst pressure rates in the league, I believe bottom 3. Is this a sign that our pass protection isn't quite as good as we were led to believe over the first 4 weeks? Two games in a row now our OL has looked shaky.

 

 

You can find plays like that in every offense in every game, usually more than once. Allen is following the rules of the play and sometimes it just so happens that a WR ends up wide open while unfortunately not being part of the progression. It seems that a general rule built into this offense is "if things break down, look to Diggs first." A lot of still frame all-22 analysis is not being entirely fair to what the QB has to process in a matter of 3 seconds on every play after the snap.

 

It was more so Josh holding the ball too long at times this week.

[Old Coot]

3 hours ago, bill8164 said:

Josh was given the most amount of time on pass protection in this game (approximately 3.10 seconds) according to Joe Marino. Josh had a bad game, it happens

Interesting. When I watched the game it seemed to me that Josh was under pressure a good bit of the time. Several times (in the 2d half I think) there were free rushers up the middle.

[PromoTheRobot]

Sherfield was wide open and would have scored if Josh saw him. Instead a dump down to Diggs.

Edited October 18, 2023 by PromoTheRobot