Anyone at the game, or with access to all 22 replay..Is anyone getting open??

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Am I the only one who needs an index from @HoofHearted’s acronyms 😂

 

Appreciate all the info and work you’re sharing. Wish I understood some specifics of the lingo (PAP, MOD, MoF)….

 

I would like to assume I know what they are if I knew what they stood for?

 

Go Bills!

[HoofHearted]

2 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Am I the only one who needs an index from @HoofHearted’s acronyms 😂

 

Appreciate all the info and work you’re sharing. Wish I understood some specifics of the lingo (PAP, MOD, MoF)….

 

I would like to assume I know what they are if I knew what they stood for?

 

Go Bills!

PAP - play action pass

MOD - man outside and deep (this is a technique played by corners)

MOF - middle of the field (can refer to a player or a coverage - MOF Closed Coverages are 1 and 3 - MOF Open Coverages would be your two shell 2, 4, or 6)

[EmotionallyUnstable]

2 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

PAP - play action pass

MOD - man outside and deep (this is a technique played by corners)

MOF - middle of the field (can refer to a player or a coverage - MOF Closed Coverages are 1 and 3 - MOF Open Coverages would be your two shell 2, 4, or 6)

Is this a concept used within a match zone?

 

Rewatching from the broadcast recording and Play 2 which you indicate is Cover 3 MOD….looks like press man from the snap…so in all likelyhood you got your zone coverage but due to the fact they’re in 12 personnel and run only two routes, corners are essentially playing man  ?

[3rdand12]

7 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

How many threads do we need on this moot point?🙄

You can see its a new Member just trying to acclimate right ?

Could have left that comment in your pocket for one of our more frequently repetitive posters

 How a bout a "welcome to the Boards , you fg idiot" or something nice ? 

[HoofHearted]

3 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Is this a concept used within a match zone?

 

Rewatching from the broadcast recording and Play 2 which you indicate is Cover 3 MOD….looks like press man from the snap…so in all likelyhood you got your zone coverage but due to the fact they’re in 12 personnel and run only two routes, corners are essentially playing man  ?

Correct.

[3rdand12]

5 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

He also had Shakir wide open on an out on the play I bolded that probably would have gotten at least 15 yards.  

 

My question from what I was watching was...is Allen having issues setting line protections against certain looks? Seemed very similar to Bengal playoff gameplan where multiple OLinemen were standing around blocking nobody while 2 guys got near immediate pressure several times.

 

And further, is Allen even setting protection calls or is Morse still handling that like he did when Josh first got here?

This. These question are really getting to the heart of wtf is going on. Seriously Turk. Thanks for asking and pointing out 

Good root cause thinking

 

Its been going on for a few seasons  and thought Kromer would have fixed this along with Fire Dorsey and Josh.

Does appear the adjustments might be poorly communicated. So who owns it

[3rdand12]

4 hours ago, BearNorth said:

true, but also about a half foot shorter and 50 pounds lighter.

and not always open. Mostly doubled and still makes plays

I would like Kincaid to become the second most viable threat for defenses to attend to.

 That way Allen can go through a few progressions and find Quinton Morris in the End zone more often or Cook or Murray or .......

[3rdand12]

4 hours ago, Rubes said:

 

I'd have to disagree, then. I think we've seen generally good play design by Dorsey. I think the offense is pretty complex and some guys may just not be picking up the nuances well.

 

Then why. Asking for a  friend, why dont they know the calls and assignments"

 

thats what I pay them for gosh dangit all

 But seriously

 How do you need three years to learn your assignments?

You dont

its a Communication breakdown

https://www.google.com/search?q=communicatio+breakdown+led+zeppelin&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS932US932&oq=communicatio+breakdown+led+zeppelin&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTE4NTU4ajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:2ab695e3,vid:3EH7QMVnSRI,st:0

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Joe Marino touched it a little bit that after the fumble Davis disappeared.

 

Knox is injured and I believe helped block/chip quite a bit. 
 

I don’t think 11 and 16 played much. I’m shocked they didn’t look to Cook more. 

 

11 Harty 10 snaps (16%) - that's a season low for him.  typically closer to 20-25%

16 Sherfield 22 snaps (36%) - his snap counts vary all over the place, from the teens, to pushing towards 50%

10 Shakir 24 snaps (39%) - that's a season high for him.  he's been trending steadily up through the season.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "Davis disappeared".  Do you mean "was benched"?  Because that's not the case.  He played 57 out of 61 snaps.

 

[Low Positive]

I watched all of it. Not with the trained eye of @HoofHearted, but I watched it. Dorsey actually schemed guys open. Josh ignored them. I probably need to apologise to Cian Fahey, Josh does have trouble reading coverages when a coordinator really disguises them. 

[Beck Water]

6 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

He also had Shakir wide open on an out on the play I bolded that probably would have gotten at least 15 yards.  

 

My question from what I was watching was...is Allen having issues setting line protections against certain looks? Seemed very similar to Bengal playoff gameplan where multiple OLinemen were standing around blocking nobody while 2 guys got near immediate pressure several times.

 

And further, is Allen even setting protection calls or is Morse still handling that like he did when Josh first got here?

 

OK, we need someone with better knowledge here to take this on but I'll have a go. 

 

Wink Martindale loves him his stunt blitzes.  More, he loves him his delayed stunt blitzes.  See here for good assessment:

 

Allen doesn't set protections against that, because it's not the look he sees pre-snap (it may not even be the same look he and the OL saw on all the game film watched, because "special sauce for each OL" is a Wink Martindale hallmark).

 

So then the OL default to protection rules, and the issue is that the entire line has to be on the same page and in sync about what rules they're following (which may change with the base protection) AND able to make whatever pass-offs they need to make smoothly and quickly, which is a big ask.

 

If I remember correctly, the Bengals were doing similar delayed stunts in the playoffs.

 

So what's the answer to the delayed stunt blitz stuff?

1) RUN.  Stunt blitzes create havoc on sound gap integrity in run D

2) The QB has to know where his quick answer is, and take it.

 

In the first half, we had 9 run plays to 18 pass plays - and Allen was not taking his quick answers.  He was 8 of 18.

In the second half, we had 20 run plays to 12 pass plays, and it worked - Allen was 11 for 12. 

The passing yardage gained was ~= 1st and 2nd half, despite fewer pass plays.

 

I don't know if Morse or Allen is setting the protections now, but either way doesn't matter, setting the protections against the pre-snap D is not the issue.

IMO.

 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

22 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

OK, we need someone with better knowledge here to take this on but I'll have a go. 

 

Wink Martindale loves him his stunt blitzes.  More, he loves him his delayed stunt blitzes.  See here for good assessment:

 

Allen doesn't set protections against that, because it's not the look he sees pre-snap (it may not even be the same look he and the OL saw on all the game film watched, because "special sauce for each OL" is a Wink Martindale hallmark).

 

So then the OL default to protection rules, and the issue is that the entire line has to be on the same page and in sync about what rules they're following (which may change with the base protection) AND able to make whatever pass-offs they need to make smoothly and quickly, which is a big ask.

 

If I remember correctly, the Bengals were doing similar delayed stunts in the playoffs.

 

So what's the answer to the delayed stunt blitz stuff?

1) RUN.  Stunt blitzes create havoc on sound gap integrity in run D

2) The QB has to know where his quick answer is, and take it.

 

In the first half, we had 9 run plays to 18 pass plays - and Allen was not taking his quick answers.  He was 8 of 18.

In the second half, we had 20 run plays to 12 pass plays, and it worked - Allen was 11 for 12. 

The passing yardage gained was ~= 1st and 2nd half, despite fewer pass plays.

 

I don't know if Morse or Allen is setting the protections now, but either way doesn't matter, setting the protections against the pre-snap D is not the issue.

IMO.

 

 

 

Two observations:

 

1) It was mentioned that the Giants put a NT directly on Morse which was unusual for them. I suspect that DaBoll knows that the undersized Morse calls some of the O line plays and struggles when he's being pounded on every play.

 

2) Allen's 8/18 has to be taken in context.  First the two "trips" were strange.  I can watch multiple games and see that happen only once.  It was odd it happened twice in one quarter.  There is evidence that Allen experienced a shoulder "stinger" early in the 2nd quarter that impacted his throws.  Collinsworth mentioned it a couple of times and the 8/18 could be broken down to 6/10 BEFORE the injury (with two fall down incompletions & a dropped pass) and 2/8 after. 

 

 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

One aspect I don’t understand Dorsey’s thought process is all the two route concepts he’s running with some of these heavy packages.

 

Seems like we’re limiting Allen’s options, at times. 

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Am I the only one who needs an index from @HoofHearted’s acronyms 😂

 

Appreciate all the info and work you’re sharing. Wish I understood some specifics of the lingo (PAP, MOD, MoF)….

 

I would like to assume I know what they are if I knew what they stood for?

 

Go Bills!

Pap would be playaction pass 

 

Mod would be Man Outside(only) deep , which is a defensive concept with man principles In zone... Cliff notes version ... Saban call it Man on Demand 

 

And MoF is middle of field which can refer to a coverage or player 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Buffalo716

[Big Turk]

This is kinda disturbing actually...basically the Bills run the same plays exactly out of certain formations every week with nothing to try to fool the D...said it's why Okereke caused the INT...he knew what was going to happen based on the formation.  If true, this is an absolutely terrible tell by Dorsey he is giving DC's...

 

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

23 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Pass 1 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read.

Pass 2 - Went 12 personnel. Giants played 3 to it - Corners playing MOD - Allen picked his matchup and threw to Diggs.

Pass 3 - Ran Deep Crossers vs Man Coverage - they tried to Double Stef - throw to Gabe - it was open but he tripped. Diggs and Knox also open.

Pass 4 - Ran a Dragon concept vs Cover 2 - hit Diggs on the Glance - he was the first read. Had Cook open to the flat and probably would have had Morris open on the Corner route to the field as the corner drove the stop underneath.

Pass 5 - Went empty and hit Gabe on a stop to the boundary flat. Hitch Seam Concept vs. Cover 3.

Pass 6 - PAP designed for Sherfield on a deep over - cut his route too shallow and should have drifted sooner. He was wide open. Diggs also got open on the comeback to the field. Curious if Josh got confused here - Defense should 3 pre-snap and rolled 2. Even with the shallower path by Sherfield Josh can and has made that throw before. Additionally if he just stops and throws it back across the formation he has Cook wide open in the flat with a lead blocker in Edwards backside with a Corner as the only defender close to it and he was 15 yards away.

Pass 7 -PAP Snag 7 concept - reading the overhang defender - he sank with Diggs so Josh threw the arrow to Gabe - Gabe fumbled. Had Knox as an outlet backside.

Pass 8 - PAP Deep Cross concept vs. Cover 3 which turns into man for the corners because of the offensive formation. Hit Diggs - Harty got hemmed up with the corner otherwise he could have blown the top off that thing because MoF Safety played Cheat to Diggs. Also had Murray as an outlet on the play.

Pass 9 - PAP. This is the mesh concept with the vertical by Gabe that everyone is talking about. Allen sees single high coverage pre-snap. Safety did a good job hanging on the hash as long as possible to muddy Allens read - wanted to hit Gabe which is why he waited so long because he wanted the Safety to declare. Once Safety declared and he saw Cover 2 he immediately looked for Diggs and let it rip even though he had a wide open Shakir on the opposite side.

Pass 10 - HBO Concept vs Quarters - took the quick throw to Diggs before anything else really had an opportunity to develop. Would have had Knox to the middle of the field and Gabe on a deep curl if he wanted it.

Pass 11 - Ran the same Snag 7 concept to the field against Cover 6. Looked Diggs on a slant backside first - wasn't there and had to scramble to his left. Had Knox open to the flat on a whip route with the defense dropping to the sticks on third and long. If he had looked trips side first as he should have he'd probably have hit Gabe on the Curl for a first down.

Pass 12 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read and it should have been handed off. There was no play there with the defense playing 1.

Pass 13 - Mesh vs Cover 3 - Cover 1 made a comment about Allen potentially thinking it was 1, but every defender is playing with zone eyes so I'd highly doubt it. Had Cook and should have thrown to Cook. Instead got pressured and threw it in the dirt to Diggs. With a clean pocket he also had Gabe on the backside deep out vs the sinking corner.

Pass 14 - Basically ran a one man concept here on 3rd and forever. Defense played Cover 3 - Sherfield ran the collector to pull the MoF Safety and Diggs ran an out and up vs a Trap 3 look. They got exactly the look they wanted - Diggs beat his guy but pressure forced Josh out of the pocket and the play wasn't really designed to go anywhere else. He forced a throw off-balance and underthrew it.

Pass 15 - PAP. Another two man route concept here. Diggs on the Glance and Sherfield on the Deep Out to the field vs. Cover 3. Curious about the condensed split by Diggs here, but the backers didn't bite and there was no window. Allen should have thrown the Out to the field.

Pass 16 - Flood concept vs. Cover 1 Rat. Looked like Josh got confused by the double on Diggs initially - checked the MoF Safety to ensure it was 1, but then pocket broke down. Diggs worked scramble drill and got himself open. Allen overthrew it.

Pass 17 - Went Empty and ran two verts backside to Cover 3 which was disguised as 0. Josh was definitely thrown off by the disguise. By the time he recognized 1 high the pocket had broken down and he threw it away to the field. Looked like Murray also ran the wrong route on the play otherwise Shakir would have been open to the flat.

Pass 18 - Ran Curl Arrow to the field vs Quarters and Hitch Seam to the boundary vs. 2. Looked Diggs first - had Harty on the Curl behind it wide open, but never saw it. Pocket broke down and he ended up throwing it away on scramble drill.

Pass 19 - PAP - Mirrored Deep Curls vs Cover 3 - open on both sides - threw to Diggs.

Pass 20 - Had a Post/Dig concept working the middle of the field vs Cover 6 - threw to Knox and it got picked. The frustrating part is if he holds a second later the Safety is driving the Dig and Knox would have had a walk-in touchdown on the Post. Murray also open as the outlet.

 

That's every pass from the first half of the game. Guys were definitely getting open. There's definitely a lot being schemed for Diggs, but there's also a fair amount being schemed for other guys as well. Allen finds Diggs immediately whenever anything breaks down which is understandable. Also rushed some stuff which is understandable given the consistent pressure he saw. As a side note Dorsey's play calling was impressive. Every route concept outside of the Flood vs Cover 1 was had an answer to take advantage of the coverage they saw from the defense.

HoofedHearted, thanks for diagnosing all these attempts.

 

In your mind what would help this offense avoid lower point outputs - Jets, Jaguars, Giants?

 

How does Dorsey extract more out of the personnel he has at his disposal? 
 

[HoofHearted]

6 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

HoofedHearted, thanks for diagnosing all these attempts.

 

In your mind what would help this offense avoid lower point outputs - Jets, Jaguars, Giants?

 

How does Dorsey extract more out of the personnel he has at his disposal? 
 

 

[sven233]

3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

This is kinda disturbing actually...basically the Bills run the same plays exactly out of certain formations every week with nothing to try to fool the D...said it's why Okereke caused the INT...he knew what was going to happen based on the formation.  If true, this is an absolutely terrible tell by Dorsey he is giving DC's...

 

 

 

The thing is, a lot of teams run the same concepts out of the same formations.  It's not uncommon.  The difference is, the great teams disguise it much better.  They'll throw in some pre snap motion or other window dressing to show the defense something different even though they are running the exact same concept.  Dorsey does not do this. 

 

One of the other things we should be doing is running Allen out of these same formations.  It may not be motion, but it would give the defense something else to think about.  Right now, we're lining up and running the same basic concepts regularly.  While there may be an option route or 2 built in, that is not going to be enough to get the defense guessing as to what is coming in these situations.  So, when it looks like the defense knows what is coming on a play when watching it on TV, it's probably because they do as we do run a lot of the same basic concepts out of the same formations without trying to disguise what we are doing.  We are relying on our athletes to win instead of the scheme itself.  That's fine in some instances, but not all the time. 

[TampaBillsJunkie]

On 10/17/2023 at 1:59 PM, Big Turk said:

I think you want all-22...or are you assuming 1 side of the ball was short a player on every play?

I guess Dorian Williams doesn't count yet and Harty and Shakir are 1/2 player a piece so ALL-21 may be correct