Kaiir Elam is a liability any time he is on the field

[BuffaloBillyG]

55 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

Sounds like a lot of excuses for a former first round pick that has been a complete flop to this point. It’s ok to admit he sucks. He’s had plenty of opportunity. 

Or, and hear me out here...stuff happens with reasoning behind it. I bet you were firm in saying Bernard was a wasted pick too, right? Or perhaps that AJE "sucked"? It's ok to admit that some guys take a bit longer than others. 

 

Plenty of opportunity. Was a rookie last year. Yeah, that's a long time. 🙄

[Solomon Grundy]

Just saw Jaquan Johnson at BNIA🤷

[whorlnut]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Or, and hear me out here...stuff happens with reasoning behind it. I bet you were firm in saying Bernard was a wasted pick too, right? Or perhaps that AJE "sucked"? It's ok to admit that some guys take a bit longer than others. 

 

Plenty of opportunity. Was a rookie last year. Yeah, that's a long time. 🙄

None of those guys were first round picks. First round picks are largely considered day one starters. However, Elam was a healthy scratch multiple times his rookie year and every game this year until our CB1 went down. Oh by the way…Jamarcus Ingram, a UDFA, finished last game after Elam crapped his pants.

 

Am I missing anything?

[BuffaloBillyG]

Just now, whorlnut said:

None of those guys were first round picks. First round picks are largely considered day one starters. However, Elam was a healthy scratch multiple times his rookie year and every game this year until our CB1 went down. Oh by the way…Jamarcus Ingram, a UDFA, finished last game after Elam crapped his pants.

 

Am I missing anything?

Yes. You are missing that 1st round picks aren't always immediate starters. Some take longer to develop. He's 23 games into his career. Are you crapping your pants over Kincaid right now? Were you crapping your pants when Allen didn't win the starting job right out of the gate? 

 

I'm not going to waste time checking...but I'm willing to bet if I looked back on the "Elam drafted by the Bills" thread I would see you crapping on the pick then. This is likely you keeping up with your narrative. 

[whorlnut]

Just now, BuffaloBillyG said:

Yes. You are missing that 1st round picks aren't always immediate starters. Some take longer to develop. He's 23 games into his career. Are you crapping your pants over Kincaid right now? Were you crapping your pants when Allen didn't win the starting job right out of the gate? 

 

I'm not going to waste time checking...but I'm willing to bet if I looked back on the "Elam drafted by the Bills" thread I would see you crapping on the pick then. This is likely you keeping up with your narrative. 

Nope…had faith in Allen all along and have faith in Kincaid now. Thanks for asking. Keep believing in a failed prospect. I’ll check on you later…

[BuffaloBillyG]

14 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

Nope…had faith in Allen all along and have faith in Kincaid now. Thanks for asking. Keep believing in a failed prospect. I’ll check on you later…

Yup. Tomorrow will bring some answers. Though I'm sure if Elam plays well you will just casually throw out a "Yea well it was the Giants". 

[BillsUberAlles]

1 hour ago, whorlnut said:

This is an excuse too. Was he graded as a first rounder?  Maybe. Did he fit another team’s press man scheme?  Yeah. Did he fit out zone scheme?  Nope. That’s the difference. Not all first rounders are the same. He would have been decent in a scheme that fits his strengths. He just doesn’t fit ours. Beane def need to wear that. He panicked after McDuffie was drafted (imo) and now we are in this spot. 

 

It's actually weird because Elam was very good in zone coverage early last year...especially in the Ravens game.

 

Specifically remember watching a knowledgable NFL person break down Elam's film and show how he baited Jackson into an INT in that game and generally looked like he was a natural zone corner.

 

Not sure exactly what happened since then to him.

[Low Positive]

1 minute ago, BillsUberAlles said:

 

It's actually weird because Elam was very good in zone coverage early last year...especially in the Ravens game.

 

Specifically remember watching a knowledgable NFL person break down Elam's film and show how he baited Jackson into an INT in that game and generally looked like he was a natural zone corner.

 

Not sure exactly what happened since then to him.

He had a single bad game where the Bills asked him to step in and cover Calvin Ridley one on one. We’re just fixated on it because it’s the last thing that we saw.

[JoPoy88]

15 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

He had a single bad game where the Bills asked him to step in and cover Calvin Ridley one on one. We’re just fixated on it because it’s the last thing that we saw.

yeah I have to agree with the OP (reluctantly) that he was bad against JAX, but he hasn’t been uniformly bad when he’s had his chances to play going back to last season. Of course that’s another issue

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, whorlnut said:

This crap that “he looked pretty good as a rookie” needs to stop. It’s an old narrative and just has to go away. If he was so good, then the coaches would believe in him. I trust them more than message board gm’s that cry about hOw WelL hE pLaYeD aS a rOoKiE. It’s a horrendous excuse for a crappy football player.

 

Yeah i’m not sure I understand why people think he was good as a rookie.

 

He gave up a reception 76% of the time he was targeted last season.

 

To put that into perspective, Tre White, coming off of an ACL injury and a year off football, was at 53%.

[DKBills25]

I agree with this

he is the reason we lost the jags imo 

he was Fersure getting targeted the whole game 

[dave mcbride]

15 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

As someone who was against drafting another CB in round 1 for McD's system........you don't need to apologize to me.......Christian Benford is basically proving my point that you can get similar production at CB in this system much later in the draft(Benford hasn't been that much better, contrary to some opinions).

 

But Elam hasn't been trash from day 1.    He's made some big plays.    Reminds me a bit of how Xavien Howard started out.   You can see the talent but Elam is a good example of why you don't use first round picks on players who don't naturally fit your system.

I know @GunnerBill will argue otherwise, but I continue to believe that the Bills really wanted McDuffie given that he was a near-perfect for the McDermott system (i.e., great zone player and tackler coming out of Washington). I mean, it makes too much sense not to be the case, and it wasn’t the first time the Chiefs took advantage of the Bills in a draft. They then sorta panicked and got what they felt was the last high physical-talent CB left.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

I know @GunnerBill will argue otherwise, but I continue to believe that the Bills really wanted McDuffie given that he was a near-perfect for the McDermott system (i.e., great zone player and tackler coming out of Washington). I mean, it makes too much sense not to be the case, and it wasn’t the first time the Chiefs took advantage of the Bills in a draft. They then sorta panicked and got what they felt was the last high physical-talent CB left.

 

 

I believe @GunnerBill source.   McDuffie is a very nice player but doesn't have the physical traits they want outside.   But either way.........should have been looking receiver with that pick.    CB is a pretty easy position to fill in this defense.    I felt Tre White was the best CB in the 2017 draft but I didn't think taking him was a great idea either.   Don't need first round picks outside if you are predominantly zone defense.

[TheBeaneBandit]

16 hours ago, whorlnut said:

This is an excuse too. Was he graded as a first rounder?  Maybe. Did he fit another team’s press man scheme?  Yeah. Did he fit out zone scheme?  Nope. That’s the difference. Not all first rounders are the same. He would have been decent in a scheme that fits his strengths. He just doesn’t fit ours. Beane def need to wear that. He panicked after McDuffie was drafted (imo) and now we are in this spot. 

This right here. Now if Beane is even willing to own it we've destroyed any value he had. The whole situation sucks.

[dave mcbride]

45 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I believe @GunnerBill source.   McDuffie is a very nice player but doesn't have the physical traits they want outside.   But either way.........should have been looking receiver with that pick.    CB is a pretty easy position to fill in this defense.    I felt Tre White was the best CB in the 2017 draft but I didn't think taking him was a great idea either.   Don't need first round picks outside if you are predominantly zone defense.

I guess I don’t see the physical trait issue.

 

Tre White: 5’11”, 192 lbs, 4.47 40 time, 32” vertical

McDuffie: 5’11”, 193 lbs, 4.44 40 time, 38.5” vertical.

 

I mean, they are virtually carbon copies of each other physically and just as importantly, he scouts perfectly into their defense: 

 

“McDuffie possesses excellent play speed. He makes transitions extremely well and has an effective backpedal and lateral shuffle that allows him to stay facing receivers for long periods of time. He shows no issues in pure man coverage and was tasked with covering many types of receivers throughout his career with no glaring missteps. Long speed is a concern that may limit him when faced with NFL-caliber receivers.

Instincts (75 - Elite): Will be one of the smartest players on the field, McDuffie is seemingly never in the wrong position and is continually one of the first players to the ball. He is extremely disciplined in coverage, always reading what is happening around him to best allow him to lock down his receiver. Anticipates and reacts to break quickly and efficiently in order to keep the ball from being thrown his way. He is extremely active as a run defender and really shows a complex understanding of how plays develop in front of him.”

 

He’s basically a slightly better (in the scouting sense) Tre White(!), who has turned out to be a great player himself. My take: Bills people didn’t want to admit that they lost out on their targeted prospect *to KC of all teams* and spread the word, sour grapes-wise, that he wasn’t a fit anyway. As you and I both know, to this point he is a far better player than Elam (this is all irrespective of whether they should have drafted CB in rd 1, which is beside the point in this discussion). And I thought this prior to the draft. Also, why do you think KC felt that they had trade up to get him? What other very good team lurking close by was also clearly going CB given their roster and the word on the street?

Edited October 15, 2023 by dave mcbride

[Bobby Hooks]

17 hours ago, whorlnut said:

This crap that “he looked pretty good as a rookie” needs to stop. It’s an old narrative and just has to go away. If he was so good, then the coaches would believe in him. I trust them more than message board gm’s that cry about hOw WelL hE pLaYeD aS a rOoKiE. It’s a horrendous excuse for a crappy football player.

Old narrative? It was exactly what happened. I saw it with my own eyes. Kid looked pretty good as a rook. If you don’t agree that’s your call, but you’re not changing my opinion because you decide to post with randomly inserted capital letters. 
 

Also, you might want to look into what an excuse means. No one’s making excuses. He didn’t look good against the Jags. That’s the truth, but that doesn’t change that he was decent in his RoOkIE YeAr! 

[HappyDays]

11 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I guess I don’t see the physical trait issue.

 

It's McDuffie's arm length - 29.75". I looked into this before that draft, not once has McDermott used a draft a pick or a free agency contract on a CB with shorter than 30" arms. It is seemingly a minimum requirement for him. I think he likes his corners, especially outside, to have the ability to cover both areas in under/over conflict situations. Can't do that without long arms.

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I believe @GunnerBill source.   McDuffie is a very nice player but doesn't have the physical traits they want outside.   But either way.........

 

In my opinion it’s a bad look for McBeane either way.

 

It’s either:

 

1) The Bills misjudged McDuffies skills (he is playing like one of the best CB’s in the NFL right now) because of his size.

 

OR

 

2) The Bills liked him but allowed KC to outmaneuver them.

 

There is no way to make the situation look good.

 

Personally, I *hope* it’s number 2. Mainly because I am not a fan of teams who judge players by their physical traits rather than their football ability.

[whorlnut]

55 minutes ago, Bobby Hooks said:

Old narrative? It was exactly what happened. I saw it with my own eyes. Kid looked pretty good as a rook. If you don’t agree that’s your call, but you’re not changing my opinion because you decide to post with randomly inserted capital letters. 
 

Also, you might want to look into what an excuse means. No one’s making excuses. He didn’t look good against the Jags. That’s the truth, but that doesn’t change that he was decent in his RoOkIE YeAr! 

Alternating caps isn’t cHaNgInG mY mInD eItHeR

53 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

It's McDuffie's arm length - 29.75". I looked into this before that draft, not once has McDermott used a draft a pick or a free agency contract on a CB with shorter than 30" arms. It is seemingly a minimum requirement for him. I think he likes his corners, especially outside, to have the ability to cover both areas in under/over conflict situations. Can't do that without long arms.

Except McDuffie has in KC…

[Solomon Grundy]

16 hours ago, BillsUberAlles said:

 

It's actually weird because Elam was very good in zone coverage early last year...especially in the Ravens game.

 

Specifically remember watching a knowledgable NFL person break down Elam's film and show how he baited Jackson into an INT in that game and generally looked like he was a natural zone corner.

 

Not sure exactly what happened since then to him.

I believe it's playing time. People need to allow the guy to get his proverbial legs up under him