Mango Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 1 hour ago, Doc said: It was stupid to give Jones that contract. They're stuck with him for another year and then have a $22M cap hit in 2025. I was thinking that originally Daboll might get fired midway through 2024, but I think that if they continue this year, he's gone at the end of the year, proving he couldn't do with Jones what he did with Josh, therefore it wasn't on him, and that his offense isn't good without Josh to run it. I don't totally disagree here. But the Jones contract isn't holding them back. They have something like $45M in space next year even with Jones, and he only counts for $15M this year. They brought in a ton of FA this passed offseason and 1 offensive lineman. They have the cash to fill a lot of holes. The Giants can and should move on from Jones when they can. But there are a lot of issues outside of QB that are destroying this team. Daboll and Shoen were hired within a few days of each other. They deserve to be on the chopping block. Those guys throwing DJ under the bus on this is right up there with the shirt treatment Saleh has given White. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 11 minutes ago, Mango said: I think Daboll has always been a blowhard. Not a terrible dude, but he cannot be "the guy" at the top or in total control of one side of the ball. He needs a few degrees of separation to provide a buffer. He needs to be part of an ensemble, he can't be the star or the conductor. Daboll is the cool coach that is your friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 Just now, Mango said: I don't totally disagree here. But the Jones contract isn't holding them back. They have something like $45M in space next year even with Jones, and he only counts for $15M this year. They brought in a ton of FA this passed offseason and 1 offensive lineman. They have the cash to fill a lot of holes. The Giants can and should move on from Jones when they can. But there are a lot of issues outside of QB that are destroying this team. Daboll and Shoen were hired within a few days of each other. They deserve to be on the chopping block. Those guys throwing DJ under the bus on this is right up there with the shirt treatment Saleh has given White. True it's not holding them back, but they still wasted a ton of money on him. I get that they were kind of stuck, seeing him have his best season (but not anywhere close to $40/year), but they didn't need to give him what they did and should have signed him to a modest 2 year contract, during which time they find his replacement. No one was giving him even $30M/year much less with $81M guaranteed. And they had $54M in cap room going into this season. They had to allocate $11M for Barkley but the rest could have been used to shore-up other areas. Will the Giants brass have confidence that Schoen will be better at it next year? Do they think that Daboll can do it without a QB like Josh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 18 minutes ago, Doc said: True it's not holding them back, but they still wasted a ton of money on him. I get that they were kind of stuck, seeing him have his best season (but not anywhere close to $40/year), but they didn't need to give him what they did and should have signed him to a modest 2 year contract, during which time they find his replacement. No one was giving him even $30M/year much less with $81M guaranteed. And they had $54M in cap room going into this season. They had to allocate $11M for Barkley but the rest could have been used to shore-up other areas. Will the Giants brass have confidence that Schoen will be better at it next year? Do they think that Daboll can do it without a QB like Josh? I can get behind all of that. It pains me to say it, but I think Daboll/Shoen deserve the brunt of the blame here. They signed a good amount of FA's and only one offensive lineman, and gave Jones that contract. I just think the Jones contract is a relatively small piece to the NYG puzzle and didn't cause any harm in roster building this offseason or next. I don't see a path where the Giants don't move on from at least Daboll if not both him and Shoen this offseason. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 5 minutes ago, Mango said: I can get behind all of that. It pains me to say it, but I think Daboll/Shoen deserve the brunt of the blame here. They signed a good amount of FA's and only one offensive lineman, and gave Jones that contract. I just think the Jones contract is a relatively small piece to the NYG puzzle and didn't cause any harm in roster building this offseason or next. I don't see a path where the Giants don't move on from at least Daboll if not both him and Shoen this offseason. No chance either are fired imo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 1 minute ago, FireChans said: No chance either are fired imo. If they go like 4-13 with Daniel Jones looking worse could do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 5 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: If they go like 4-13 with Daniel Jones looking worse could do it. Not to mention convincing the brass to give Jones that terrible contract. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 26 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: If they go like 4-13 with Daniel Jones looking worse could do it. Daboll/Schoen have already had the best season in Giants’ recent history. They hadn’t won more than 9 games since 2016. Last year was their second winning season since 2012. Daboll and co are lucky they had such a good year last year, because it gives them rope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 5 minutes ago, FireChans said: Daboll/Schoen have already had the best season in Giants’ recent history. They hadn’t won more than 9 games since 2016. Last year was their second winning season since 2012. Daboll and co are lucky they had such a good year last year, because it gives them rope. The rope will significantly get shorter and be almost gone if they only win 4 games. Because they committed to a QB and that QB got worse and showing no signs of improvement in the season, not to mention how disorganized they look right now....yeah that would be enough. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: The rope will significantly get shorter and be almost gone if they only win 4 games. Because they committed to a QB and that QB got worse and showing no signs of improvement in the season, not to mention how disorganized they look right now....yeah that would be enough. They didn’t commit to DJ as much as you think. They can get out next year at basically a wash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) 27 minutes ago, FireChans said: They didn’t commit to DJ as much as you think. They can get out next year at basically a wash. If DJ regresses, why would the Owners trust Daboll with another QB? Edited October 3, 2023 by Royale with Cheese 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said: If DJ regresses, why would the Owners trust Daboll with another QB? They had a hard choice to make. DJ had the best year of his career in his contract year (in large part due to Daboll). They elected to give him a short term deal to see if it was sustainable. It wasn’t. it’s not like Daboll drafted Jones. He was already there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said: If DJ regresses, why would the Owners trust Daboll with another QB? If the guy they didn't pick regresses? I don't think that's as big an indictment as if it was their own 1st round pick. Still the team collapsing like this a horrible look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 1 minute ago, FireChans said: They had a hard choice to make. DJ had the best year of his career in his contract year (in large part due to Daboll). They elected to give him a short term deal to see if it was sustainable. It wasn’t. it’s not like Daboll drafted Jones. He was already there. He had 15 TD passes lol. The improvement was little. Now they are stuck with him until after next year to avoid a major cap hit. Daboll and Schoen gave him that contract but it's not just that. The overall team looks as bad as the Bears. That's a major regression from a playoff team. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/daniel-jones-29041/ 5 minutes ago, Warcodered said: If the guy they didn't pick regresses? I don't think that's as big an indictment as if it was their own 1st round pick. Still the team collapsing like this a horrible look. But they are the ones who extended him. If Jones continues to suck, then they have nothing of confidence until after next year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 Just now, Royale with Cheese said: He had 15 TD passes lol. The improvement was little. Now they are stuck with him until after next year to avoid a major cap hit. Daboll and Schoen gave him that contract but it's not just that. The overall team looks as bad as the Bears. That's a major regression from a playoff team. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/daniel-jones-29041/ I think the Giants were quite pleased with the step that DJ took last year, personally. they are not stuck with him til “after next year.” He can be released after 6/1 next season, and will only cost them 12M in space more than his contract. The Giants have a projected 43M in space next season, with guys like Waller and Lawrence ripe for restructure. It’s not the big of a deal, cap-wise. They took a chance on him and it didn’t work. It’s not the end of the world lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: But they are the ones who extended him. If Jones continues to suck, then they have nothing of confidence until after next year. Didn't someone just point out to you that they extended him with the option to be able to move on? That would kind of indicate that they had some flexibility there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 32 minutes ago, FireChans said: They had a hard choice to make. DJ had the best year of his career in his contract year (in large part due to Daboll). They elected to give him a short term deal to see if it was sustainable. It wasn’t. it’s not like Daboll drafted Jones. He was already there. Yeah but he was hired to make him into Josh. If last year was the best Jones will look and he Daboll needs a QB like Josh to be successful, there's no reason to keep him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsShredder83 Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 2 hours ago, Mango said: I think Daboll has always been a blowhard. Not a terrible dude, but he cannot be "the guy" at the top or in total control of one side of the ball. He needs a few degrees of separation to provide a buffer. He needs to be part of an ensemble, he can't be the star or the conductor. Has any coaching tree ever put out more huff n puff 'my way/highway' coaches ever? I kinda dont even blame them. saw dynasty in their coaching formulative years, Beli was looked at like the Emperor in Imperial Japan. McDaniels, Bob/Bill guy from Houston who i forget, Matt Patricia, Vrabel has some tendencies but never coached under him... theyre all the same guy'ish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 28 minutes ago, Doc said: Yeah but he was hired to make him into Josh. If last year was the best Jones will look and he Daboll needs a QB like Josh to be successful, there's no reason to keep him. That's not how NFL owners make decisions. We literally watched this happen with McD/Beane. First year, overachieve, playoffs. Second year, bad year. Were McD/Beane fireable at the end of 18? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 1 hour ago, BillsShredder83 said: Has any coaching tree ever put out more huff n puff 'my way/highway' coaches ever? I kinda dont even blame them. saw dynasty in their coaching formulative years, Beli was looked at like the Emperor in Imperial Japan. McDaniels, Bob/Bill guy from Houston who i forget, Matt Patricia, Vrabel has some tendencies but never coached under him... theyre all the same guy'ish I think BB is his own beast. These guys come up under him and they learn a ton, but they don't really get it because they aren't him. Those types of coaches are always going to be flawed (frauds?). You want a guy who is curious by nature and willing to be wrong. I sort of equate it to Aston Martin in F1 if you are a fan. They have a history of just ripping off Redbull and Mercedes so they start with a good base. But they don't fully understand the overall concepts of the car so they have no idea how to upgrade, adjust, and set it up week to week over a season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 54 minutes ago, FireChans said: That's not how NFL owners make decisions. We literally watched this happen with McD/Beane. First year, overachieve, playoffs. Second year, bad year. Were McD/Beane fireable at the end of 18? Sure it is. Why do you think they hired Daboll? And no, we didn't watch this happen with McBeane and no they weren't fireable at the end of '18. It was a 3-year plan where year 1 was meant to trade bad contracts and non-process players for draft picks/players, year 2 was to draft the franchise QB (gave them a reason to have a bad season, along with the $70M in dead cap) and year 3 was to make the playoffs. Surprisingly they made the playoffs in year 1, which bought them even more time and goodwill, not that they needed it. Contrast that with the Giants who had a 5th year QB and $54M in cap space in year 2. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 8 minutes ago, Doc said: Sure it is. Why do you think they hired Daboll? And no, we didn't watch this happen with McBeane and no they weren't fireable at the end of '18. It was a 3-year plan where year 1 was meant to trade bad contracts and non-process players for draft picks/players, year 2 was to draft the franchise QB (gave them a reason to have a bad season, along with the $70M in dead cap) and year 3 was to make the playoffs. Surprisingly they made the playoffs in year 1, which bought them even more time and goodwill, not that they needed it. Contrast that with the Giants who had a 5th year QB and $54M in cap space in year 2. They hired Daboll in part to fix Jones. He tried, it worked year 1 and didn't work year 2. They aren't going to fire him and hire ANOTHER coach to fix Jones. It was Jones' last shot, not Daboll's. Do you think that's what the Mara family will do? You can't argue that Schoen/Daboll bought NO good-will from making the playoffs last season. You can argue that they will turn around and fire the reigning COY and the GM who brought them their first winning season in 7 years, but you would be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 22 minutes ago, FireChans said: They hired Daboll in part to fix Jones. He tried, it worked year 1 and didn't work year 2. They aren't going to fire him and hire ANOTHER coach to fix Jones. It was Jones' last shot, not Daboll's. Do you think that's what the Mara family will do? You can't argue that Schoen/Daboll bought NO good-will from making the playoffs last season. You can argue that they will turn around and fire the reigning COY and the GM who brought them their first winning season in 7 years, but you would be wrong. Heard today that some are pointing out Jones is causing many of his own problems because he doesn't know how to set protections properly or why to set protections based on what he is seeing. Taking a lot of sacks because he is not having his line properly block what the D is giving him. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 5 minutes ago, FireChans said: They hired Daboll in part to fix Jones. He tried, it worked year 1 and didn't work year 2. They aren't going to fire him and hire ANOTHER coach to fix Jones. It was Jones' last shot, not Daboll's. Do you think that's what the Mara family will do? You can't argue that Schoen/Daboll bought NO good-will from making the playoffs last season. You can argue that they will turn around and fire the reigning COY and the GM who brought them their first winning season in 7 years, but you would be wrong. The main reason they hired Daboll was for what he did with Josh. After seeing Josh without him and Daboll in year 2 with Jones, they probably realize that he can't just take a mediocre one and turn him into Josh. If Daboll had a hand in them giving Jones a (essentially) 2-year $81M deal for that type of production, it's even worse for him. And if he's lost the team... And sure the first year might have bought him an extra year, meaning he gets fired at the end of next season if they don't return to the playoffs. But he/Schoen aren't getting a 4th season if they miss the playoffs for 2 seasons in a row. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 Just now, Doc said: The main reason they hired Daboll was for what he did with Josh. After seeing Josh without him and Daboll in year 2 with Jones, they probably realize that he can't just take a mediocre one and turn him into Josh. If Daboll had a hand in them giving Jones a (essentially) 2-year $81M deal for that type of production, it's even worse for him. And if he's lost the team... And sure the first year might have bought him an extra year, meaning he gets fired at the end of next season if they don't return to the playoffs. But he/Schoen aren't getting a 4th season if they miss the playoffs for 2 seasons in a row. Lmao walking back to “maybe he’s fired in 2 years then.” Classic Doc. Daboll/Schoen will employed by the Giants in 2024. Thanks for agreeing with me lmao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 1 minute ago, FireChans said: Lmao walking back to “maybe he’s fired in 2 years then.” Classic Doc. Daboll/Schoen will employed by the Giants in 2024. Thanks for agreeing with me lmao Walking back a "maybe." How shameful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Doc said: Yeah but he was hired to make him into Josh. If last year was the best Jones will look and he Daboll needs a QB like Josh to be successful, there's no reason to keep him. 1 hour ago, FireChans said: That's not how NFL owners make decisions. We literally watched this happen with McD/Beane. First year, overachieve, playoffs. Second year, bad year. Were McD/Beane fireable at the end of 18? 45 minutes ago, Doc said: Sure it is. Why do you think they hired Daboll? And no, we didn't watch this happen with McBeane and no they weren't fireable at the end of '18. It was a 3-year plan where year 1 was meant to trade bad contracts and non-process players for draft picks/players, year 2 was to draft the franchise QB (gave them a reason to have a bad season, along with the $70M in dead cap) and year 3 was to make the playoffs. Surprisingly they made the playoffs in year 1, which bought them even more time and goodwill, not that they needed it. Contrast that with the Giants who had a 5th year QB and $54M in cap space in year 2. 5 minutes ago, Doc said: Walking back a "maybe." How shameful. You know what you posted is still out there, right? Oh, when you said “there’s no reason to keep him” you meant maybe in a few seasons I guess? Lmao. Edited October 3, 2023 by FireChans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said: Daboll is the cool coach that is your friend. Right now hes MUCH more in Rex Ryan territory...also a good coordinator who was a lousy HC....than he is Bill Parcells. Parcells was also a yeller..and he gave Phil Simms hell all the time. But it was measured. Contrast that with Daboll's CONSTANT histrionics and ranting and arm-waving and eye-rolling like a child. Plus dressing down his team in public like he always does, which will not help him win loyalty in the locker room, is a clown show. Edited October 3, 2023 by RkFast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) 28 minutes ago, FireChans said: You know what you posted is still out there, right? Oh, when you said “there’s no reason to keep him” you meant maybe in a few seasons I guess? Lmao. Yup. This is what I said originally: 6 hours ago, Doc said: It was stupid to give Jones that contract. They're stuck with him for another year and then have a $22M cap hit in 2025. I was thinking that originally Daboll might get fired midway through 2024, but I think that if they continue this year, he's gone at the end of the year, proving he couldn't do with Jones what he did with Josh, therefore it wasn't on him, and that his offense isn't good without Josh to run it. See the "if" in there (I bolded, italicized and underlined it for you just for good measure)? Looking at their schedule, I don't see a whole lot of wins left for them if they keep playing like this. Maybe the Raiders (if Jimmy G is still hurt) or the Packers. Meaning 3-14, maybe an outside shot at 4-13 if they play a divisional opponent tough. Do you think he'll still have the team listening to him? Will that record be enough to save their jobs just because they made the playoffs the year before? I don't know for sure and neither do you. But I don't magically see it improving in year 3 and that means they just get rid of him/them a year later. Who cares? It's not my/our team. Edited October 3, 2023 by Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 5 minutes ago, Doc said: Yup. This is what I said originally: See the "if" in there (I bolded, italicized and underlined it for you just for good measure)? Looking at their schedule, I don't see a whole lot of wins left for them if they keep playing like this. Maybe the Raiders (if Jimmy G is still hurt) or the Packers. Meaning 3-14, maybe an outside shot at 4-13 if they play a divisional opponent tough. Do you think he'll still have the team listening to him? Will that record be enough to save their jobs just because they made the playoffs the year before? I don't know for sure and neither do you. But I don't magically see it improving in year 3 and that means they just get rid of him/them a year later. Who cares? It's not my/our team. Apparently you for disputing my claim that he won't be fired this year lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, FireChans said: Apparently you for disputing my claim that he won't be fired this year lol No I really don't care, beyond the purposes of discussion. Again, they're not my team. They can keep him for 10 years if they wish. I see him as a dead man walking, whether it's the end of this year or next. You OTOH seem to be suggesting he's safe for the next 2 years. lol Edited October 4, 2023 by Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
\GoBillsInDallas/ Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 1 minute ago, \GoBillsInDallas/ said: Worst part is when Daniel Jones gets sacked at the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetermansRedemption Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said: Need to start allowing flex games nearly immediately in the season. The amount of garbage on in prime time slots is maddening. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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