Kirksey signing with the Bills PS

[Thurman#1]

On 8/31/2023 at 1:42 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Nice attempt at a straw man. 

 

Edmunds got paid $18M per year because he was a legit top 5 MLB last year.     Which I said in the post you replied to.

 

Prior to that.......he was a lot of hype and not much actual excellent play.   

 

What teams have traditionally gotten from Kirksey when healthy is low 50's PFF grade MLB play.........about the same as Edmunds before his huge outlier of a season with a near 80 grade in 2022.

 

Personally,  I would not be the least bit surprised to hear that the Bears are underwhelmed with Edmunds lack of playmaking and for him to be back with Buffalo in 2025 when his dead cap is only around $4M.    Eberflus is used to LB's that make a lot of plays on the football in his scheme and Edmunds has just never shown even a spark of potential in that regard.  

 

 

Do you know what a straw man is? Go look it up and come back. Agree or disagree, that wasn't a straw man. The idea's dumb.

 

You were saying he was finally; a top 5 MLB/ILB last year? Fair enough. Maybe. Certainly very close if not. He did improve, and he wasn't top five before last year. Just top ten or so. Probably top five in pass defense, which is the big priority in football these days. He may have gotten hype, but he's always been very good.

 

Not to mention very important to the play of the team. Whenever Edmunds was out, team performance dipped. 

 

I don't much care how he does with the Bears. You might be right. Or easily wrong. Whatever. 

 

In the Bills scheme the middle of the field has seen few passes completed there for the last five years. Few targets even.

 

 

[Shaw66]

36 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Sorry my point was mainly geared toward losing Edmunds, and how we can still get better at that spot (in 1 specific aspect: impactful plays).

 

I'm not expecting Kirksey to be an all-pro, or even pro bowler, "average" is actually fine.

 

But Tremaine was average at best, IMO, at impactful plays.  FF, sacks, Ints etc

 

Again, that was something that he never "took the next step with", if he had, I think he'd be in a Bills uniform still.  Impactful plays was the constant discussion/focus from Frazier/Coach LY, in terms of Edmunds and defense in general.

 

I think Kirskey, and however we run subpackages at MLB, has the "potential" to generate more impactful plays.  Not just Kirskey himself, albeit he's shown a bit more than Tremaine in this area historically.

 

I do think that's a "need" in terms of improvement area, against upper echelon teams and in the playoffs.  Is it the top need? No.

 

I think Josh/Dorsey/offense improving turnovers and RZ efficiency are the top priorities, that will lead to a better overall team.  Likely that could carry us, if they execute fairly flawlessly.   But this defense has always been about giving up the small plays and forcing teams into mistakes, over long drives...be it penalties, turnovers etc.  That's something we can improve on, as a defense in general and at MLB

I understand.  Edmunds doesn't make splash plays.  I don't think Kirksey will, either.  Bills are just looking for someone who will play the position solidly.  Impact plays out of the middle linebacker is a luxury the Bills haven't tried to acquire, so I'm not expecting anything special.  Leonard, Groot, Miller, White, Milano, Hyde, and Poyer are the guys who have to make the splashes.  

Edited September 3, 2023 by Shaw66

[Thurman#1]

22 minutes ago, akcash said:

Dodson/Bernard/Kirksey, Dotson/Bernard/Kirksey, Dime, repeat.

 

 

I'm doubting it'll be quite that predictable, but yeah, that could easily be one of the most popular base formations, if not #1.

 

[akcash]

16 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I'm doubting it'll be quite that predictable, but yeah, that could easily be one of the most popular base formations, if not #1.

 

Yeah I feel like between the three of them we just need to figure out how to get to third and long withing the first two sets of our opponents downs on their prosessions. 

 

Shut down the run and get off the field.

 

Same as it's always been.

 

No green dot with Dime but I'm sure they can call it in from the sideline.

Edited September 3, 2023 by akcash

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Do you know what a straw man is? Go look it up and come back. Agree or disagree, that wasn't a straw man. The idea's dumb.

 

You were saying he was finally; a top 5 MLB/ILB last year? Fair enough. Maybe. Certainly very close if not. He did improve, and he wasn't top five before last year. Just top ten or so. Probably top five in pass defense, which is the big priority in football these days. He may have gotten hype, but he's always been very good.

 

Not to mention very important to the play of the team. Whenever Edmunds was out, team performance dipped. 

 

I don't much care how he does with the Bears. You might be right. Or easily wrong. Whatever. 

 

In the Bills scheme the middle of the field has seen few passes completed there for the last five years. Few targets even.

 

 

 

 

 

As I said in the post that you responded to........the Bears clearly were hoping for the near 80 pff grade level play of Edmunds in 2022.

 

But by exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable.

 

Which as usual.......yours just is not.

 

Save your  stammering uh-uh-uh "he was very good..........he did improve........he was probably top five in pass defense(at some unspecified time?)"  vaguery.     For all you know there were perceived "intangibles" in Kirksey's game.........the bottom line is they had similar grades until last season.

 

And the only absolute in this discussion was the grade assigned to the players,  Edmunds and Kirksey.       

 

He's gone and they let him leave for a reason.........it wasn't that they couldn't afford an $18M aav player on a very long term contract.   If he was a 25 year old player at a premium position with an 80 grade he would have been extended.    Especially if he didn't wait until year 5 of his contract to finally elevate his game.   Simple as that.   

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by BADOLBILZ

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Do you know what a straw man is? Go look it up and come back. Agree or disagree, that wasn't a straw man. The idea's dumb.

 

You were saying he was finally; a top 5 MLB/ILB last year? Fair enough. Maybe. Certainly very close if not. He did improve, and he wasn't top five before last year. Just top ten or so. Probably top five in pass defense, which is the big priority in football these days. He may have gotten hype, but he's always been very good.

 

Not to mention very important to the play of the team. Whenever Edmunds was out, team performance dipped. 

 

I don't much care how he does with the Bears. You might be right. Or easily wrong. Whatever. 

 

In the Bills scheme the middle of the field has seen few passes completed there for the last five years. Few targets even.

 

 

To the bolded, huh?

 

Edmunds allowed a passer rating over 100 in 2020 and 2021.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

To the bolded, huh?

 

Edmunds allowed a passer rating over 100 in 2020 and 2021.

 

 

Once teams realized that the worst thing that can happen when targeting Edmunds was that the pass would just end up incomplete.......after he proved he had no nose for the football whatsoever.........good QB's really started to work him over.

 

It became reminiscent to me of the days of Thomas Smith..........the tremendous 90's Bills cover CB who went from the least targeted CB in the NFL one season to being regularly attacked once teams realized there was zero chance whatsoever that he would come down with an interception.   

 

Edmunds has still never developed any ball skills........but he finally made significant strides in zone coverage last year.........but the idea that teams just wouldn't throw his way prior to that was a myth created by folks who were trying to buy time for him to hopefully develop into something better amidst the warranted concern about his deficiencies.    People with the team and those shilling for the team drummed that up.    Then a few lazy and/or wannabe-shill media members picked it up and it becomes a talking point.

 

 

[MasterStrategist]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I understand.  Edmunds doesn't make splash plays.  I don't think Kirksey will, either.  Bills are just looking for someone who will play the position solidly.  Impact plays out of the middle linebacker is a luxury the Bills haven't tried to acquire, so I'm not expecting anything special.  Leonard, Groot, Miller, White, Milano, Hyde, and Poyer are the guys who have to make the splashes.  

I'm with you, just think Edmunds was in position 95% or more of the time and he hardly ever made that "impact" play. Even LY in Jets game, has the ball ripped out of his hands (just 1 example).

 

Edmunds was still very good, just think we will see guys actually make the play this season.  Something he didn't do.

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

I'm with you, just think Edmunds was in position 95% or more of the time and he hardly ever made that "impact" play. Even LY in Jets game, has the ball ripped out of his hands (just 1 example).

 

Edmunds was still very good, just think we will see guys actually make the play this season.  Something he didn't do.

I agree.  He was a physical freak who didn't make plays. Allen's  a freak, too.  One out of two isn't bad.

[billsfan89]

On 9/2/2023 at 5:27 PM, MasterStrategist said:

Bottom line, we need more "splash"/impactul plays from our new MLB. 

 

As much as I liked the "potential" of Tremaine, he never made the impactful plays.  Reliable but not exceptional player and bmnever thought he was a "natural leader" (something he got much better at).  Glad he got the contract he received, but that again was based on "potential".

 

Even if it's piecing together a MLB, subpackages/etc, I'm hoping we can get more impactful plays and more aggression.

I actually think Edumonds will be back in a Bills uniform after 3 or so years in Chicago. I don’t think Edumonds has any chance to live up to that contract but will still be enough of a player that the Bills will welcome him back similar to how Shaq and Phillips came back to be solid role players

[BillsFanForever19]

1 minute ago, billsfan89 said:

I actually think Edumonds will be back in a Bills uniform after 3 or so years in Chicago. I don’t think Edumonds has any chance to live up to that contract but will still be enough of a player that the Bills will welcome him back similar to how Shaq and Phillips came back to be solid role players

 

I don't think it's going to happen that quickly or that cheaply. Shaq and Jordan got decent contracts from other teams, but nothing like what Edmunds got in Chicago.

 

If it doesn't work out in Chicago, another team will still pay a good amount for him based on his attributes, thinking they can make it work there. Maybe that team will be us. But it's not going to be a Phillips or Lawson situation where he comes back for pennies without competition from other teams.

[TBBills Fan]

Does he start week 1?  I think he does 

[MasterStrategist]

2 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

I actually think Edumonds will be back in a Bills uniform after 3 or so years in Chicago. I don’t think Edumonds has any chance to live up to that contract but will still be enough of a player that the Bills will welcome him back similar to how Shaq and Phillips came back to be solid role players

Maybe. Tremaine is a "tease", shows potential and all the physical ability to be a top 3 MLB in the NFL.   Just hasn't put it all together, and agree that I dont think he will.  

 

But that potential and being young still, gets guys paid in the NFL even on a 3rd deal.  

 

I'd be surprised if it's Buffalo.  We will have found his replacement in a few years, or at least invested another high pick to make Tremaine an unlikely option

[WyoAZBillfan]

What, if anyone has the numbers, for when QBs attacking middle of the field (seems like that was where 13 seconds transpired) passes completed, maybe yards and more importantly, on those 3rd and long or crucial situations. It just feels like on many 1st, 2nd downs Edmunds was busy getting piggy back rides for 5-8 yards all too often.

 Maybe I just have a few select times in my head and he was much better than that. I don’t feel like I’ve been a detractor his time in Buffalo (he played well last year), just more negative plays than positive. 

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

I don't think it's going to happen that quickly or that cheaply. Shaq and Jordan got decent contracts from other teams, but nothing like what Edmunds got in Chicago.

 

If it doesn't work out in Chicago, another team will still pay a good amount for him based on his attributes, thinking they can make it work there. Maybe that team will be us. But it's not going to be a Phillips or Lawson situation where he comes back for pennies without competition from other teams.

 

 

Agree that it won't be pennies...........but I have said it before......I suspect he will be back in Buffalo and after 2 years his dead cap figure gets very low while his base salary gets quite high.  

 

I think the idea that he was ascending and would continue to do so wherever he went will likely turn to "maybe he was best utilized" in Buffalo.  

 

And if it happens it will still, of course, be for a lot less than he is making in Chicago.

 

Hopefully they find a stud playmaking MLB with little investment in the meantime instead.........but I could very easily see him back in the middle in 2025 while Dorian Williams or other replaces a would-be 32 year old Matt Milano outside.

 

 

[Sierra Foothills]

14 hours ago, Paul Costa said:

I think the missing variable with Kirksay is he’s always played on below average defenses. Plug him into a top 5 defense like ours and he may show out even more. Plus he’s not going to be a three down player. Less is more. I feel he’s going to thrive in this defense with his role. 

 

As you suggest it's hard for any linebacker to show well behind a poor defensive line.

 

Kirksey has played nearly his entire NFL career on poor defenses behind poor defensive lines. The best lineman he's ever played with is probably Myles Garrett who isn't the type of space eater who makes a LBs job easier.

 

By and large Kirksey has played on bad defenses behind bad defensive lines.

 

It will be interesting to see his play in this defense.

 

 

[That's No Moon]

2 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

By and large Kirksey has played on bad defenses behind bad defensive lines.

 

It will be interesting to see his play in this defense.

What if the Bills defensive line is also bad?  Who, other than the currently broken Von Miller, scares the other team on our line? Daquan Jones is the only one stout against the run. Epenesa is constantly out of position. Rousseau is super inconsistent. Phillips is constantly hurt. Lawson is a JAG.

 

Put it this way, Cincinnati didn't seem to have a ton of trouble with our line, with a subpar and broken O-Line (at the time) of their own.

[Sierra Foothills]

16 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

What if the Bills defensive line is also bad?  Who, other than the currently broken Von Miller, scares the other team on our line? Daquan Jones is the only one stout against the run. Epenesa is constantly out of position. Rousseau is super inconsistent. Phillips is constantly hurt. Lawson is a JAG.

 

Put it this way, Cincinnati didn't seem to have a ton of trouble with our line, with a subpar and broken O-Line (at the time) of their own.

 

That's why I said, "It will be interesting to see his play in this defense."

 

 

[That's No Moon]

3 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

That's why I said, "It will be interesting to see his play in this defense."

 

 

I think it will be hard to diagnose. Is it him, or is it the overdrafted meatbags in front of him?

[Richard Noggin]

29 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

What if the Bills defensive line is also bad?  Who, other than the currently broken Von Miller, scares the other team on our line? Daquan Jones is the only one stout against the run. Epenesa is constantly out of position. Rousseau is super inconsistent. Phillips is constantly hurt. Lawson is a JAG.

 

Put it this way, Cincinnati didn't seem to have a ton of trouble with our line, with a subpar and broken O-Line (at the time) of their own.

 

Leonard Floyd is a legitimate edge rusher, and Ed Oliver is probably an above average 3T. Rousseau is at least average at LDE with tons of upside. Daquan Jones, as you recognized, is understood to be an awesome-or-at-least-solid 1T. Add in the depth of Poona Ford at 1T and both Tim Settle and Jordan Philips at 3T, along with Epenesa and Jonathan and Lawson at the edge...and nowhere here have we even mentioned the week 5-London return of Von Miller...

 

That doesn't sound AT ALL like a "bad" defensive line.