Buffalo Fanatics has a point - Burrow is elite but JA is superior

[PatsFanNH]

On 5/5/2023 at 8:44 PM, BillsFan619 said:

While the last playoff game was brutal, some are putting too much stock into it (in more ways than one).
 

Playoffs:

-JA had one of the best performances by a quarterback in NFL history, going 27-of-37 for 329 yards and four TDs on the road

-In eight games, JA has thrown 17 TDs – Burrow has thrown for nine in seven games

-JA also has a higher passer rating, more yards per game, and more yards per attempt

 

Regular season (since 2020):

-JA’s Buffalo Bills are 37-12 when he starts in that span – Burrow’s Cincinnati Bengals are 24-17-1

-JA has also thrown 108 TDs to Burrow’s 82

-JA is second in adjusted EPA per play, behind only Patrick Mahomes – Burrow sits in 10th place

 

https://thebuffalofanatics.com/the-josh-allen-disrespect-needs-to-stop/?amp

Until Allen has the success in the playoffs that Burrows had MOST people will keep him above Allen.. look how he has done his first 2 complete seasons they have gone to the AFCCG and SB. You can argue the refs missed an obvious offside by Aaron Donald who also got the sack. 
 

People will also tell you stats don’t show the most important thing.. how well the player does in crunch time, for example Manning always had gassy stats but never ever had the success Brady had in the playoffs.. 

 

this said, who cares!? Allen is either 2 or 3. When/if he makes a SB he may be the solid #2 behind Mahomes. (He will have to do a lot to pass Mahomes)

[Mikie2times]

 

One last split on these guys. These, again, are career numbers. 

 

 

[PrimeTime101]

On 5/5/2023 at 11:57 PM, Airseven said:

Allen played himself out of the elite tier. He’s borderline top 5 at this point and needs to perform next season (with poise and consistency) to earn the hype.

I have to ask, Are you a real Bills fan and actually believe this?

 

[CincyBillsFan]

6 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Burrow consistency in passing is just higher because he is better at just passing. Josh makes up for it to some extent in athleticism, but when you look at situations that really require passing and passing only, that is where you see the separation.

 

Burrow has a QBR of 101.9 when leading and 101.2 when trailing.

Allen, 99 leading vs 86.4 trailing, almost a 14 point drop.

 

Allen has a 92.2 QBR overall, on 3rd down its 88, 4.2% drop.

Burrow has a 100.4 QBR overall, on 3rd down it's 103.2. 2.8% better 

 

 

 

It's hard to compare the two QB's stats when there is such an enormous difference in the quality of offensive play makers supporting each. IMO the above stats are surprisingly close given the disparity in weapons at each QB's disposal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

10 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

That may be true for his first however many years in the league, but last year all Mahomes had was Kelce. That’s the same as Allen having Diggs. And Mahomes won a Super Bowl with him.

 

Allen is simply more prone to mistakes than Mahomes. That’s why he has more INT’s and more fumbles, yet has played in less games. The weapons around him didn’t make him fumble the ball at the goal line (twice) against Minnesota. Or throw the INT in overtime. Or throw INT’s straight to Jets players.

 

I’m very happy to have Allen. He’s likely my favorite Bill of all time at this point. But Mahomes is better. 

 

Mahomes has 49 INT’s and 31 fumbles in 80 games.

 

Allen has 60 INT’s and 52 fumbles in 77 games.

 

He is more prone to mistaken and there is no denying that.

I think putting total fumbles and not LOST fumbles in the same stat line as interceptions is disingenuous.  INT's are turnovers; fumbles are nothing unless they're lost. 

 

With Allen we often see an O lineman miss the block and Allen fumbles as a result of the blindside hit.  Fortunately the lineman, after missing the block, is standing there to fall on the fumble.

 

And I disagree that Allen is more prone to mistakes then Mahomes.  I believe a better explanation is that Allen presses more in games then Mahomes and the reason for this is that KC is a better football team which requires Mahomes to press less often.

 

 

[90sBills]

9 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

This is kind of foolish. Does loyalty mean nothing? I'd get it if Allen were a top 8-12 QB. But he's solidly top three and at worst top 5. I rather ride and die with Allen than trade him for Mahomes. 

It’s a good thing you feel this way because the Chiefs would never trade Mahomes for Allen. 

[Mikie2times]

34 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

It's hard to compare the two QB's stats when there is such an enormous difference in the quality of offensive play makers supporting each. IMO the above stats are surprisingly close given the disparity in weapons at each QB's disposal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The stats I'm comparing are against themselves more than each other. Burrow is not seeing a decline in production in 3rd and long, Allen is. Same as when trailing vs leading and in games between 0-7 points. You see the performance of that player not decline and in some cases improve for Burrow, but decline rapidly in all 3 areas for Allen. Especially when trailing or in close games. 

 

I also disagree with this argument for the Bengals based on Boyd, Higgins, and Mixon. It would be the first time in modern NFL history any credence was given to a #2, #3, and RB making a QB great. Mixon averaged all of 3.9 yards per carry last year. Burrow was pressured 110 times last year, same as Josh, and sacked 92 times the last two seasons. Neither team has any offensive line play. Chase is incredible, so is Diggs. Motor has a better yards per carry average than Mixon. Hurst has better stats than Knox. It's a wash at RB and TE combined. It doesn't really matter at this point anyway because we can't get the ball to our RB or TE.  Higgins and Boyd are significantly better, but that won't really matter all that much either and we will see that soon enough. Burrow did just fine when Chase was out. He we will require those horses less over time with the way he processes. 

 

I also lived in Ohio the last 20 years so I have watched Burrow plenty. He is as close to Brady as the league has. He wins with his arm, timing, and precision. Allen wins with athleticism, improvisation, and arm talent. You can take Allen's strengths away easier than Burrows even if Allen has more of them.   Allen is more fun to watch. He's more enjoyable in many areas and I prefer having him to Burrow, who I really don't care for, but Burrow is cold blooded AF and will be making life difficult for us along with Mahomes for a long time. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Mikie2times

[Airseven]

2 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I have to ask, Are you a real Bills fan and actually believe this?

 

Your question is very messageboardy. But I’ll admit I don’t pretend like his playoff performance last year, for example, never happened. Nor do I reach for excuses. 

[Scott7975]

11 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

That may be true for his first however many years in the league, but last year all Mahomes had was Kelce. That’s the same as Allen having Diggs. And Mahomes won a Super Bowl with him.

 

Allen is simply more prone to mistakes than Mahomes. That’s why he has more INT’s and more fumbles, yet has played in less games. The weapons around him didn’t make him fumble the ball at the goal line (twice) against Minnesota. Or throw the INT in overtime. Or throw INT’s straight to Jets players.

 

I’m very happy to have Allen. He’s likely my favorite Bill of all time at this point. But Mahomes is better. 

 

Mahomes has 49 INT’s and 31 fumbles in 80 games.

 

Allen has 60 INT’s and 52 fumbles in 77 games.

 

He is more prone to mistaken and there is no denying that.

 

I think his weapons are a bit underrated. He also had a top oline, a great burner at rb that was shifty and fast, and Andy Reid.

[90sBills]

10 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

That may be true for his first however many years in the league, but last year all Mahomes had was Kelce. That’s the same as Allen having Diggs. And Mahomes won a Super Bowl with him.

 

Allen is simply more prone to mistakes than Mahomes. That’s why he has more INT’s and more fumbles, yet has played in less games. The weapons around him didn’t make him fumble the ball at the goal line (twice) against Minnesota. Or throw the INT in overtime. Or throw INT’s straight to Jets players.

 

I’m very happy to have Allen. He’s likely my favorite Bill of all time at this point. But Mahomes is better. 

 

Mahomes has 49 INT’s and 31 fumbles in 80 games.

 

Allen has 60 INT’s and 52 fumbles in 77 games.

 

He is more prone to mistaken and there is no denying that.

Allen is a great qb. He’s a perfect fit for the Bills. But too many here are not objective when comparing him to the best in the league right now. I agree with all your points. It doesn’t make for a bad Bills fan to acknowledge another qb is better. Of all the ridiculous stats that Mahomes has the most impressive to me is that he leads in comebacks of 10pts+ all time at something like 58%. The next closest is Brady at 37% or something. Having the clutch gene is not something that can be taught. He just has it.

 

I hope Allen and the Bills can improve enough to get 1 ring. I don’t need him to be the best qb in the league. Being the best qb for the Bills is more than enough enjoyment as a Bills fan. 

[PrimeTime101]

12 minutes ago, Airseven said:

Your question is very messageboardy. But I’ll admit I don’t pretend like his playoff performance last year, for example, never happened. Nor do I reach for excuses. 

LOL!

[Einstein]

56 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I think putting total fumbles and not LOST fumbles in the same stat line as interceptions is disingenuous.  

 

It’s the opposite. Putting lost fumbles instead of total fumbles is the disingenuous stat. 

 

Whether a player loses the ball to the other team or not, he still fumbled. The ball still left his hands. If a teammate grabs it, then he didn’t mess up? Of course not. The player messed up when he fumbles, whether his teammate bails him out or not.

 

As for Josh getting blindsided… that happens to every QB! Josh probably gets blindsided less than the average. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Einstein

[Stank_Nasty]

4 hours ago, PatsFanNH said:

Until Allen has the success in the playoffs that Burrows had MOST people will keep him above Allen.. look how he has done his first 2 complete seasons they have gone to the AFCCG and SB. You can argue the refs missed an obvious offside by Aaron Donald who also got the sack. 
 

People will also tell you stats don’t show the most important thing.. how well the player does in crunch time, for example Manning always had gassy stats but never ever had the success Brady had in the playoffs.. 

 

this said, who cares!? Allen is either 2 or 3. When/if he makes a SB he may be the solid #2 behind Mahomes. (He will have to do a lot to pass Mahomes)

Burrow has yet to even score a 4th quarter td in 7 post season games. But if you consider “clutch” to bd making a habit of letting your defense get you a timely turnover, driving 20 yards and repeatedly kicking postseason fg’s…. Then yes. Burrow is extremely clutch. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

50 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

It’s a good thing you feel this way because the Chiefs would never trade Mahomes for Allen. 

You can say the same about Allen and Bills fans. Only a very few questionable fans would want to trade Allen for Mahomes, IMO. 
 

I’d feel incredibly dirty if the Bills did that and won a Super Bowl. 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

I also disagree with this argument for the Bengals based on Boyd, Higgins, and Mixon. It would be the first time in modern NFL history any credence was given to a #2, #3, and RB making a QB great. Mixon averaged all of 3.9 yards per carry last year. Burrow was pressured 110 times last year, same as Josh, and sacked 92 times the last two seasons. Neither team has any offensive line play. Chase is incredible, so is Diggs. Motor has a better yards per carry average than Mixon. Hurst has better stats than Knox. It's a wash at RB and TE combined. It doesn't really matter at this point anyway because we can't get the ball to our RB or TE.  Higgins and Boyd are significantly better, but that won't really matter all that much either and we will see that soon enough. Burrow did just fine when Chase was out. He we will require those horses less over time with the way he processes.

I'm not saying that Boyd & Higgins make Burrow great he already is.  Nor am I saying that the lack of a Boyd & Higgins on the Bills keep Allen from being great as he already is.  So to be clear, BOTH Burrow and Allen are great QB's and are among the top 3 QB's in the NFL with the other being Mahomes.  The actual rank ordering of the three makes for a great debate. But the differences between the 3 are very small and when the differences between QB's are small the #2 & #3 WR's can make all the difference in the world.

 

Mixon was a much more dangerous RB then Moter and this was reflected by the fact that teams game planned to shut Mixon down. Did they do the same for Singleterry? The fact that Singleterry had a higher YPC then Mixon was mostly due to defenses fear of Allen running.  ANY competent RB would have benefited from sharing the backfield with Allen.  Mixon elevated the Bengal's offense while Singleterry took advantage of Allen's presence on the O.

 

And where did you get the idea that we can't get the ball to our TE or RB?  They did get the ball to all of them. 

 

Burrow struggled when Chase was out against Cleveland.  The Browns were beating the Bengals 25 - 0 going into the 4th quarter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mikie2times]

56 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I'm not saying that Boyd & Higgins make Burrow great he already is.  Nor am I saying that the lack of a Boyd & Higgins on the Bills keep Allen from being great as he already is.  So to be clear, BOTH Burrow and Allen are great QB's and are among the top 3 QB's in the NFL with the other being Mahomes.  The actual rank ordering of the three makes for a great debate. But the differences between the 3 are very small and when the differences between QB's are small the #2 & #3 WR's can make all the difference in the world.

 

Mixon was a much more dangerous RB then Moter and this was reflected by the fact that teams game planned to shut Mixon down. Did they do the same for Singleterry? The fact that Singleterry had a higher YPC then Mixon was mostly due to defenses fear of Allen running.  ANY competent RB would have benefited from sharing the backfield with Allen.  Mixon elevated the Bengal's offense while Singleterry took advantage of Allen's presence on the O.

 

And where did you get the idea that we can't get the ball to our TE or RB?  They did get the ball to all of them. 

 

Burrow struggled when Chase was out against Cleveland.  The Browns were beating the Bengals 25 - 0 going into the 4th quarter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why would a team game plan to shut down our running backs? We don’t run the football with our running backs. If we had Mixon we still wouldn’t run the ball with our running backs.
 

If a bonafide run game was just one RB a way then we have the worst GM in football by not pursuing a high end running back.
 

We don’t want to use the traditional run game with Josh. Understanding why that is should be a bigger question than if Mixon is better. Why does a team in the Bengals who also has a horrible line willing to use the traditional run game to offset the weakness the line brings while the Bills are not? Why are they willing to run and not be very good at it and keep doing it over and over? Mixon last three years he has an average of 3.6 / 4.1 / 3.9

 

I got the idea that we can’t get the ball to our TE and RB because we don’t get the ball to our TE and RB. If we had to look at a % of yards our running backs and TE’s account for it is no doubt among the worst in the NFL. Maybe that will change in 2023 with Kincaid. I sure hope so. 
 

As for Burrow with no Chase, he is 1-4 against the Browns. His record against KC and Buffalo is better than his record against Cleveland. They own him with or without Chase. He was his normal dominant self in the 3 other games Chase didn’t play. 
 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Mikie2times

[Airseven]

2 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

LOL!

You didn’t expect me to respond. Then got stumped. Don’t worry about it.

[90sBills]

2 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

You can say the same about Allen and Bills fans. Only a very few questionable fans would want to trade Allen for Mahomes, IMO. 
 

I’d feel incredibly dirty if the Bills did that and won a Super Bowl. 

Same here. Mahomes may be the best to ever play but he isn’t Buffalo’s. Allen is the fit here and he just needs to win 1 so we can put all this to rest. Bills fans can finally get out of the rings-envied sports bar and lose that championship inferiority complex. 

[BillMafia716ix]

Josh has failed to beat Burrow or Mahomes when it really counts. Until he does that he’ll always be 3rd guy in line

[PatsFanNH]

10 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

Burrow has yet to even score a 4th quarter td in 7 post season games. But if you consider “clutch” to bd making a habit of letting your defense get you a timely turnover, driving 20 yards and repeatedly kicking postseason fg’s…. Then yes. Burrow is extremely clutch. 

You sound like a Colts fan with P Manning. The fact is if all you need is a FG you get a FG. Also a simple fact Burrow has had more success in 2 full seasons than Allen has in his entire career. That wether fair or not will get him ranked above Allen by most. 
 

Also Burrows has beaten both Mahomes and Allen in the playoffs.  Why is Mahome stabled higher? Because he has one SB.