I’m starting to get extremely frustrated with Dorsey.

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, 3rdand12 said:

an so what do you credit that to?
 

PS I am NOT a fire Dorsey guy, Lets be very clear on that matter

 

Honestly, I have watched some Cover1, All 22, and Cosell breakdowns where the routes seem either uninspired - everyone run a fly route, forcing Allen to hold the ball and expecting our WRs to simply to win those 1:1 situations, OR where there seems to be confusion where receivers end up in the same place allowing defenders to converge in coverage.

 

As with most things the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Some of that is probably player execution and miscommunication. The flip side is that Dorsey is in his first year as an OC and some of his plays may be less than inspired. Part of that job is that you also have to coach up your players to execute the plays you draw up properly, and all the in-game communication and coordination that has to happen. A lot of the more nuanced routes happen in the slot, and we have seen them try a variety of players at that position over the course of the season.

 

To be fair, they have also used different players in the slot by design - like when they move Diggs to the slot for a more favorable matchup.

 

It was and is a big step for Dorsey to make from the QB room to the booth as OC and I think some of the struggles are just the growing pains that come with making that transition. There are a few others on the Bills staff with OC experience so it is not like Dorsey has to shoulder the whole burden this year alone. I am hoping he is getting plenty of support and is open to their input as he learns the ropes.

 

I have heard plenty of times that being an NFL OC is the hardest job out there - I can believe it.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by WideNine

[Richard Noggin]

1 hour ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

Too many cooks in the kitchen?

There are 4 former NFL OC on the staff. 

 

Ironic two of the names are Shula and Brady!

 

That IS, actually, ironic! Sincere congratulations on being the first person maybe ever online to use that term correctly. Hate those names lol

[Ayjent]

I think the point here is that many people are frustrated with what they’ve seen from this offense on all cylinders and where they are now.  I think they have another gear but I like that they’ve used the running game to win and control the end of games. That was an impressive win on Saturday because of how they used the final drive to put the Dolphins to bed. Yes it would be good to not have to come back and win in the 4th dominating from whistle to whistle, but you had to know that the Dolphins were coming with it all on the line bc they lost 2 in a row coming in and the loss effectively conceded the division even though it is not yet mathematically decided.  They need to be able to play like they have the last three games if the conditions dictate it and I think they are better suited than in years past to modify their game to the conditions. There are still a lot of things that baffle me with playcalling and design but the results are there at 11-3 after knocking out three straight AFC East opponents and putting an end to any questions about who is the alpha dog in the division. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Ayjent

[Eastport bills]

9 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

why would you think winning is not the main objective?
 Defenses should not be dictating what the Offense is doing !
And Josh should not have to overide the play call so often and play hero ball to win games.

If winning is the main objective, what are you so negative about? Maybe this is the way Josh wants to play with the limitations on the O-line and the rbs we have. Right now we need Josh to make good decisions, limit turnovers and play better defense. Enjoy the ride and stop being an efficiency expert.

[Billever76]

On 12/18/2022 at 12:38 AM, buffalo2218 said:

Why should it stop at Dorsey? Frazier and especially Kromer deserve some flak themselves. God I wished we had Schwartz back, this defense would be so brutally nasty with him.

Frazier is a weak link....Dorsey is a rookie oc and handing him the reigns in the midst of a superbowl or bust season was not the best decision imo...we could get over Frazier weak scheme if we had a proven top oc or we could get over a rookie oc with growing pains but to get past both and win a superbowl is going to be a tall task...now throw in hyde and Miller injuries and possibly morse man it's going to be a tough battle to get to our goal ...

[Peter]

For those who think Dorsey is having a negative impact on Josh (or the offense), a little more perspective:

 

 

[Billever76]

15 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

Honestly, I have watched some Cover1, All 22, and Cosell breakdowns where the routes seem either uninspired - everyone run a fly route, forcing Allen to hold the ball and expecting our WRs to simply to win those 1:1 situations, OR where there seems to be confusion where receivers end up in the same place allowing defenders to converge in coverage.

 

As with most things the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Some of that is probably player execution and miscommunication. The flip side is that Dorsey is in his first year as an OC and some of his plays may be less than inspired. Part of that job is that you also have to coach up your players to execute the plays you draw up properly, and all the in-game communication and coordination that has to happen. A lot of the more nuanced routes happen in the slot, and we have seen them try a variety of players at that position over the course of the season.

 

To be fair, they have also used different players in the slot by design - like when they move Diggs to the slot for a more favorable matchup.

 

It was and is a big step for Dorsey to make from the QB room to the booth as OC and I think some of the struggles are just the growing pains that come with making that transition. There are a few others on the Bills staff with OC experience so it is not like Dorsey has to shoulder the whole burden this year alone. I am hoping he is getting plenty of support and is open to their input as he learns the ropes.

 

I have heard plenty of times that being an NFL OC is the hardest job out there - I can believe it.

 

 

 

 

 

Absolutely spot on about the growing pains of a first year rookie OC...my criticism falls on McDermott for putting our offense in the hands of a rookie oc right in the midst of a superbowl or bust season

[GoBills808]

Dorsey's offense is better than Daboll's

[John from Riverside]

7 hours ago, Ayjent said:

I think the point here is that many people are frustrated with what they’ve seen from this offense on all cylinders and where they are now.  I think they have another gear but I like that they’ve used the running game to win and control the end of games. That was an impressive win on Saturday because of how they used the final drive to put the Dolphins to bed. Yes it would be good to not have to come back and win in the 4th dominating from whistle to whistle, but you had to know that the Dolphins were coming with it all on the line bc they lost 2 in a row coming in and the loss effectively conceded the division even though it is not yet mathematically decided.  They need to be able to play like they have the last three games if the conditions dictate it and I think they are better suited than in years past to modify their game to the conditions. There are still a lot of things that baffle me with playcalling and design but the results are there at 11-3 after knocking out three straight AFC East opponents and putting an end to any questions about who is the alpha dog in the division. 

The bills are number one in the AFC and separated themselves from the other teams. How dominant do they need to be to be the alpha?

3 minutes ago, Billever76 said:

Absolutely spot on about the growing pains of a first year rookie OC...my criticism falls on McDermott for putting our offense in the hands of a rookie oc right in the midst of a superbowl or bust season

What would’ve been the alternative here Josh Allen wanted Dorsey

[Billever76]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

The bills are number one in the AFC and separated themselves from the other teams. How dominant do they need to be to be the alpha?

What would’ve been the alternative here Josh Allen wanted Dorsey

I don't know what the alternative would be..I would like to think that Buffalo would be a top destination to a top OC bc of Allen...I understand josh would advocate for his buddy and qb coach to get a promotion but at the end of the day was dorsey the best candidate for the job all feelings aside?..Josh has pull and all but at the end of the day it's a business and feelings take a back seat over what's best for the team to reach its goals

[John from Riverside]

Just now, Billever76 said:

I don't know what the alternative would be..I would like to think that Buffalo would be a top destination to a top OC bc of Allen...I understand josh would advocate for his buddy and qb coach to get a promotion but at the end of the day was dorsey the best candidate for the job all feelings aside?..Josh has pull and all but at the end of the day it's a business and feelings take a back seat over what's best for the team to reach its goals

Continuity is important for a quarterback if you bring in an OC from outside the team, he’s going to want to run his own Offense, which could actually have hurt Josh Allen

 

I am quite sure if there are coaches that would line up to be a coach on this team

[Warriorspikes51]

I actually thought the new red zone looks were impressive. Also encouraging that Knox is being as a real weapon which the O desperately needed.

 

I suspect McKenzie was used more than Bease because Miami plays a lot of man coverage.  But it was good seeing Cole out there for 11 plays 

[Rochesterfan]

2 minutes ago, Peter said:

For those who think Dorsey is having a negative impact on Josh (or the offense), a little more perspective:

 

 

 

Thank you for this.

 

It is insane to me the way people are complaining about a top flight offense that is currently playing better than at any point in the past.

 

Do they have things to clean up - yep, but last year people complained about Dabol and play design and to much trickery.

 

Dorsey is moving people around and getting guys open just as they have in the past.  He is attacking defenses with multiple concepts and has things open everywhere and he is doing it without being able to just run a TE outside because speed rushers have been killing the tackles - so he is using backs and TEs to chip and then filter out.

 

I just give them time - if The OL can protect and slow down rushes - the WRs. TEs, and RBs get open for Josh.

 

Once again the running game with limited snaps - is putting up excellent numbers and I believe still has a streak of 100 yards rushing in every game thanks to Josh, Singletary, and Cook.

 

 

[GoBills808]

Largely the same statistically against better competition

[Big Turk]

The breakdown from Kurt Warner from last game that was super detailed in terms of what Josh saw/reads/play design, etc was interesting...More than once Warner brought up that he "didn't like the spacing" by Bills players or there were certain details that were just "off" that would make the plays more effective or easier plays for Allen...whether that be a guy not pressing a route far enough upfield to influence a defender to go with him and open up the underneath route, guys not running at a proper angle, guys releasing to the wrong side for the play(inside versus outside), guys chipping on a play where it caused the defender to actually be in the way of an open guy coming across the field, etc...these things were rarely an issue under Daboll, and that is something that really worried me about Dorsey...I didn't think the overall output of the offense would be different, I was worried more about the little details within plays that can cause them to be much harder or much easier in terms of whether a play succeeds or hoe open guys are.  Seems too often we are causing the plays to be much harder than they need to be and making Allen be better than he should have to be for them to succeed because we aren't doing the small details within the plays as well as we should be, or we are simply not understanding why those details matter which would be even worse.

 

That's the difference between us and KC on offense...Mahomes is great, no doubt, but he is given the easy button way way more often than Allen is on plays where he doesn't need to be great for them to succeed.  Sometimes with Allen it seems the plays only work because Allen is able to be Superman and overcome bad play design or bad execution within the play itself.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Big Turk

[Rochesterfan]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Largely the same statistically against better competition

 

I think this is hugely understated.

 

The Bills schedule is significantly harder this year and the defenses have been stellar and yet they are producing more in most major categories.

 

 

[BBills_88]

Imagine what we will do when we get better OLINE play. 

[BRH]

15 hours ago, Beast said:

If Singletary scores at the end the Bills put 36 on the board.

 

And we still have threads like this.

 

And that's the OFFENSE putting up 32/36, too.  This wasn't a "fake" 30-point output helped by a couple of defensive or ST touchdowns.

 

Our average drive start was our 21 yard line.  And the offense put up a thirty-burger.

 

I hope some of you are beginning to realize just how ridiculous you sound.  But I doubt it.

[Big Turk]

12 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Thank you for this.

 

It is insane to me the way people are complaining about a top flight offense that is currently playing better than at any point in the past.

 

Do they have things to clean up - yep, but last year people complained about Dabol and play design and to much trickery.

 

Dorsey is moving people around and getting guys open just as they have in the past.  He is attacking defenses with multiple concepts and has things open everywhere and he is doing it without being able to just run a TE outside because speed rushers have been killing the tackles - so he is using backs and TEs to chip and then filter out.

 

I just give them time - if The OL can protect and slow down rushes - the WRs. TEs, and RBs get open for Josh.

 

Once again the running game with limited snaps - is putting up excellent numbers and I believe still has a streak of 100 yards rushing in every game thanks to Josh, Singletary, and Cook.

 

 

 

My biggest problem is what Kurt Warner says...spacing is an issue or the details are "off" in the play design and/or execution which make the plays much harder to succeed and make Allen have to execute at a consistently high level, which he can, but there isn't anything wrong with giving him an "Easy Button" like Mahomes gets in KC so often from Reid.  It's great Allen can be Superman, but he shouldn't have to do it so 3 or 4 times a drive...nothing wrong with giving him the "Easy Button" and letting him be Clark Kent sometimes too.

 

Effectively to me, Allen has to work harder/do more under Dorsey to get the same results he did under Daboll and that is due to the Bills not being as effective in terms of play design and/or execution within plays to create openings and/or separation by scheme. Dorsey's scheme is relying far more on individual wins than Daboll's did which made people open by design more often.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Big Turk

[WideNine]

44 minutes ago, Billever76 said:

Absolutely spot on about the growing pains of a first year rookie OC...my criticism falls on McDermott for putting our offense in the hands of a rookie oc right in the midst of a superbowl or bust season

 

I don't know if a whole sale change in offensive philosophy would have worked out well either...

 

Successful teams get their coaches and front offices raided. It is tough to maintain consistency with those transitions.

 

Read an article about the AZ Cardinals having to rebuild and the premise was they should basically raid the Bills coaching staff and key FO personnel.