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How much blame does Allen deserve for the Bills poor run game?(By not checking out of obvious poor run plays)


Big Turk
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10 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Yes of course, but with the TE that is 6 and if you are going to leave a guy unblocked it's the backside defender you are running away from NOT the play side defender you are running toward.

 

 

We don't have a TE out there anywhere close to all the time. When we do defenses often bring a safety down towards the box and it becomes an eight man box.

 

No. It isn't Allen.

 

 

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Anyone else unable to get past the repeated use of the phrase "...sneaking suspicion..." in the original post so as to take any of it seriously? 

 

How about we have a vote to send an emissary to Josh to explain to him that we think that the lousy running game we have is basically his fault?

I think that would go over well as I have a sneaking suspicion that Josh would welcome such constructive criticism.

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Lets just hold Allen accountable for designing the offense too. We have no idea what the play call is, there could be pulling lineman to that side, fullbacks/tightends, receivers downblocking certain players. We could be out of position like that play where Gabe Davis was supposed to crack the safety or whoever and was too far outside that he couldnt get there. Realistically, there are probably only a few plays Allen can check to based on the situation. 

 

I fault Allen 0%. The coaching staff should be telling Allen what to do when he sees certain looks and should be practicing that. 

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My issue was when Josh fumbled near their goal line and then Miami scored their first touchdown.  To me, there was confusion on the offense and either McD or Josh should have called a TO to reset (recognize the pressure).  That drive stunk all around and we started deep in our own field.

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8 hours ago, pi2000 said:

A rare draft mistake by Beane.   

 

Sure, hindsight is 20/20, and I understand the need to draft a corner.... but Morse is getting long in the tooth and has a history of missing ample time due to injuury.    He takes Elam when Lindebaum (BAL starting C)  was available.     Then in the 2nd round he picks Cook when Fortner (JAX starting C) was still available.     

 

You'd think protecting his massive investment behind center would be a priority.

 

Morse is only 30 though, he's got another few seasons left, easy. 

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1 hour ago, DallasBillsFan1 said:

My issue was when Josh fumbled near their goal line and then Miami scored their first touchdown.  To me, there was confusion on the offense and either McD or Josh should have called a TO to reset (recognize the pressure).  That drive stunk all around and we started deep in our own field.

 

That was an interesting breakdown by Jerry O where he said that was pretty much on the Center for telegraphing the snap count by using the same signal every time.

 

So basically after the guard gives the arm signal, Van Roten quickly turns his head to let the line know he is going to snap it but snaps it immediately after doing so which he had done 3 times in a row allowing Miami defenders to basically time the snap perfectly. He also catches Dawkins off guard because he was looking inside pointing a player to Saffold(as in saying you block him) and when Van Roten snapped it he wasn't even ready for the snap and Ingram blew right past him almost before he was out of his stance before he turned his head back to look at him...

 

Super interesting breakdown by JerryO and he said that he didn't even give the OLine a chance because he is supposed to vary the time he snaps it(ie, not the same time every snap) and also wait at least a second or so for the other players to get ready after he notifies him the snap is coming. He said if he has done that when playing center Fina would have yelled at him the next play in the huddle like WTF are you doing??

2 hours ago, Mickey said:

Anyone else unable to get past the repeated use of the phrase "...sneaking suspicion..." in the original post so as to take any of it seriously? 

 

How about we have a vote to send an emissary to Josh to explain to him that we think that the lousy running game we have is basically his fault?

I think that would go over well as I have a sneaking suspicion that Josh would welcome such constructive criticism.

 

How about you just actually watch the game within the game and count the defenders to the left and right of the center and the number of Bills blockers to the left and right of the center.  That's why I am asking for someone with All 22 of they can check on this because I don't have it and while it appears to be the case at times, NOT every time, when watching live, sometimes it is hard to pinpoint with 100% accuracy, although it seems to look very similar to that play I posted when it happens(ie the Bills running to the outnumbered blocking side)

 

Sorry if I pay attention to things you didn't even know existed 

Edited by Big Turk
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Big Turk raises an interesting point (and definitely game within the game sort of issue).  I wonder if a lot of it can be chalked up to the idiosyncrasies of the Miami game specifically (lots of subs/injuries/heat) vs a more systemic/long-term "problem"?  I noticed, as others have observed too, that some running plays seemed like they were in slow motion/awkward from the snap to handoff.  Maybe that too was mostly a Miami-specific thing?  But it is fair to assume that we would never intentionally have a running play where we were obviously outnumbered up front.

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9 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

To be clear there ARE, for certain, plays where we run the ball to a side with obvious outnumbered blocking...last game there was a situation they ran to a side with 6 Dolphin defenders but only 4 blockers when they have a more favorable blocking matchup on the other side. The question isn't "is this happening?" because it certainly is...the question is how often is this happening and is Allen not doing a good enough job preventing it?

 

IMO, plays are ran all the time in the NFL with this same exact set up.  The offense still spreads out to the side and the RB's job is to find that cut back lane.  We're not a talented running team.  We don't have a "dog" RB and our offensive line isn't great at run blocking.  I'm not putting even more responsibility on Josh than he already has.  Second, we run the ball so little, I wouldn't want to audible out of any.  

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1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

That was an interesting breakdown by Jerry O where he said that was pretty much on the Center for telegraphing the snap count by using the same signal every time.

 

So basically after the guard gives the arm signal, Van Roten quickly turns his head to let the line know he is going to snap it but snaps it immediately after doing so which he had done 3 times in a row allowing Miami defenders to basically time the snap perfectly. He also catches Dawkins off guard because he was looking inside pointing a player to Saffold(as in saying you block him) and when Van Roten snapped it he wasn't even ready for the snap and Ingram blew right past him almost before he was out of his stance before he turned his head back to look at him...

 

Super interesting breakdown by JerryO and he said that he didn't even give the OLine a chance because he is supposed to vary the time he snaps it(ie, not the same time every snap) and also wait at least a second or so for the other players to get ready after he notifies him the snap is coming. He said if he has done that when playing center Fina would have yelled at him the next play in the huddle like WTF are you doing??

 

How about you just actually watch the game within the game and count the defenders to the left and right of the center and the number of Bills blockers to the left and right of the center.  That's why I am asking for someone with All 22 of they can check on this because I don't have it and while it appears to be the case at times, NOT every time, when watching live, sometimes it is hard to pinpoint with 100% accuracy, although it seems to look very similar to that play I posted when it happens(ie the Bills running to the outnumbered blocking side)

 

Sorry if I pay attention to things you didn't even know existed 

I think the problem is we don't know who's fault it is. Dorsey calls play without seeing defensive alignment did he not give an appropriate audible? Josh fail to audible? Is Singletary supposed to see the alignment and "counter" up the middle after the defense flows to the right without an audible audible? 

 

In any event it seems like a breakdown definitely occurred somewhere and hopefully they work on it.

 

I have no idea if this play was a trend or an anomaly.

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Its mostly the offensive line. They just don't create holes.

2 years ago they were below average run blocking.  Last year they were pretty bad run blocking.

They haven't made any major moves this year to get them better than the last 2 years in a major way, and they are dealing with major injuries.

Don't overthink it. Full strength they are pretty bad at run blocking, and they aren't even close to full strength now.

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3 hours ago, Mickey said:

Anyone else unable to get past the repeated use of the phrase "...sneaking suspicion..." in the original post so as to take any of it seriously? 

 

How about we have a vote to send an emissary to Josh to explain to him that we think that the lousy running game we have is basically his fault?

I think that would go over well as I have a sneaking suspicion that Josh would welcome such constructive criticism.

Damn what kind of venom will be spewed when Allen actually has a bad game? I'm trying to take this thread seriously but on so many levels it's bat feces crazy. To bring this up after a Miami game in which the Bills were using a 3rd string center and 3rd string guard and the line/TE's were suffering from heat stroke is bizarre IMO.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

If you can show me any play design that features running to a side where the offensive blockers are outnumbered 6 - 4 by defenders I want to know what it is because I have never seen it.  That doesn't require a whole lot of football knowledge of what the players are doing to know that play is not going to work 99 times out of 100.

 

 

BillFinsBlocking.GIF

Having an understanding of the run concept and the blocking scheme helps tremendously when looking at all of this. The Bills are running zone read to Miami's Cover 1 look. In any zone read concept your are purposefully leaving a guy unblocked (this is what you are seeing the majority of the time you're seeing a guy unblocked in the backfield). Josh is reading that defender - if the defender squats at the LoS or is coming directly at him it's a give. If the defender is bending down the heel line of the offensive line to play the dive then it's a keep.

 

Here's the alignments with the DL movement:

1981779854_Screenshot2022-09-29090709.thumb.png.92e9e5f77e34274ca09e68a00c11f70e.png

 

The offensive line blocking rules are covered to uncovered to backside backer. Above you can see how it was suppose to be blocked. Morris got blown up by the slanting defender. Slow reaction and feet in order to get the reach block on him which ultimately blew up the play and forced Motor to try to cut it all the way backside. It's pretty obvious we were not running into an overloaded side - we just didn't block it. If we had it would have been a huge gain as you can see below:

 

Untitled-1.thumb.jpg.4adb83cb785bfa3cc28f4e28a09fd667.jpg

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27 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Damn what kind of venom will be spewed when Allen actually has a bad game? I'm trying to take this thread seriously but on so many levels it's bat feces crazy. To bring this up after a Miami game in which the Bills were using a 3rd string center and 3rd string guard and the line/TE's were suffering from heat stroke is bizarre IMO.

 

 

 

It's actually not, you may just not understand why tho, so it is kinda pointless having actual "real" football conversations with so many people unable to even understand what I am talking about nor understand why it's important.  I feel like a physicist trying to explain advanced concepts to 3rd graders.

6 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Having an understanding of the run concept and the blocking scheme helps tremendously when looking at all of this. The Bills are running zone read to Miami's Cover 1 look. In any zone read concept your are purposefully leaving a guy unblocked (this is what you are seeing the majority of the time you're seeing a guy unblocked in the backfield). Josh is reading that defender - if the defender squats at the LoS or is coming directly at him it's a give. If the defender is bending down the heel line of the offensive line to play the dive then it's a keep.

 

Here's the alignments with the DL movement:

1981779854_Screenshot2022-09-29090709.thumb.png.92e9e5f77e34274ca09e68a00c11f70e.png

 

The offensive line blocking rules are covered to uncovered to backside backer. Above you can see how it was suppose to be blocked. Morris got blown up by the slanting defender. Slow reaction and feet in order to get the reach block on him which ultimately blew up the play and forced Motor to try to cut it all the way backside. It's pretty obvious we were not running into an overloaded side - we just didn't block it. If we had it would have been a huge gain as you can see below:

 

Untitled-1.thumb.jpg.4adb83cb785bfa3cc28f4e28a09fd667.jpg

 

OK, now this makes perfect sense!  That is what I am wanting to figure out...thank you for actually posting something that can be used to learn from and understand why this is happening.  It also appears the "read" defender on the play didn't react the way they had hoped as he basically blew up the play by attacking Singletary, although Josh had already handed the ball to him...should Josh have kept it on that paly?

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9 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Even with seven in the box, seven outnumbers five, even if you throw in a fullback blocking or a WR in motion hitting someone. That's just the way it is. That's why running plays are schemed to create one specific hole rather than four or five.

 

Very little blame goes to Josh, IMO.

This isn't true. Zone schemes focus so heavily on RB vision because the aiming point changes based on what the defense does. The inside zone play I highlighted above for instance has the back look play side A first, but if it's filled he starts looking backside. That's what makes the scheme dangerous because if your back is really good as seeing thing develop quickly and your OL can sustain blocks you can't be wrong.

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12 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

It's actually not, you may just not understand why tho, so it is kinda pointless having actual "real" football conversations with so many people unable to even understand what I am talking about nor understand why it's important.  I feel like a physicist trying to explain advanced concepts to 3rd graders.

 

OK, now this makes perfect sense!  That is what I am wanting to figure out...thank you for actually posting something that can be used to learn from and understand why this is happening.  It also appears the "read" defender on the play didn't react the way they had hoped as he basically blew up the play by attacking Singletary, although Josh had already handed the ball to him...should Josh have kept it on that paly?

No, Josh made the right call. The defender was aiming directly at Josh with no path to even play the give to Singletary. He was solely a QB player there. You can see in that clip that Singletary gets tripped up by the Morris' guy, not the blitzing defender.

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2 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

No, Josh made the right call. The defender was aiming directly at Josh with no path to even play the give to Singletary. He was solely a QB player there. You can see in that clip that Singletary gets tripped up by the Morris' guy, not the blitzing defender.

 

Did  Davis miss a block there?  He looks like he wants to block the guy between him and the line(kinda like he did in the Rams game before leaking out for the opening TD) but ends up just standing there doing nothing really.

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Just now, Big Turk said:

 

Did  Davis miss a block there?  He looks like he wants to block the guy between him and the line(kinda like he did in the Rams game before leaking out for the opening TD) but ends up just standing there doing nothing really.

Yes, he looked confused as to whether he was suppose to crack the blitzing defender or block the receiver. Schematically I would guess he was suppose to crack that inside defender (otherwise why short motion him into the box). It also puts us in a really advantageous match-ups for Josh since he'd be reading the corner. The corner would have to honor the crack and slide inside (which he did) which in-turn makes it a keep for Allen and puts him 1 on 1 vs. a corner on a short edge. I'll take that match-up 100% of the time and feel great about it. I see what Dorsey was trying to do there - really good scheme there.

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