Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Joe Ferguson forever]

5 minutes ago, SCBills said:

It’s honestly bizarre that neolibs and neocons are simping for … checks notes … Prizoghin and ultra-right wing backed Wagner Group. 
 

Most of the “pro-Putin” rhetoric was simply opposition to the funding of forever proxy wars and the use of Ukraine as collateral damage.

 

We have no idea how this turns out, and you’re putting a lot of faith in Putin not becoming a wounded animal with nukes and/or Prizoghin .. a maniacal mercenary .. now becoming the de facto leader of Russia and acting in a diplomatic fashion. 
 

Perhaps we can strike a deal with Prizoghin, as he seems to talk out of both sides of his mouth, but this situation (with nuclear weapons involved) is hardly something to be taking victory laps over.   
 

How many times have we orchestrated regime change only for it to completely backfire?

 

 

So it's bad to win a proxy war with a decades old sworn enemy?  do tell...

[SCBills]

6 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

So it's bad to win a proxy war with a decades old sworn enemy?  do tell...

Define “win”

 

Did we win when we took out Gaddafi?

 

Did we win when we took out Saddam?

[Roundybout]

14 minutes ago, SCBills said:

It’s honestly bizarre that neolibs and neocons are simping for … checks notes … Prizoghin and ultra-right wing backed Wagner Group. 
 

Most of the “pro-Putin” rhetoric was simply opposition to the funding of forever proxy wars and the use of Ukraine as collateral damage.

 

We have no idea how this turns out, and you’re putting a lot of faith in Putin not becoming a wounded animal with nukes and/or Prizoghin .. a maniacal mercenary .. now becoming the de facto leader of Russia and acting in a diplomatic fashion. 
 

Perhaps we can strike a deal with Prizoghin, as he seems to talk out of both sides of his mouth, but this situation (with nuclear weapons involved) is hardly something to be taking victory laps over.   
 

How many times have we orchestrated regime change only for it to completely backfire?

 

 

I don’t think anyone is simping for Wagner. Indeed it’s not good for them to be in power. I’m more amused that the three-day operation is hurdling towards Russian Civil War 2

[Doc]

11 minutes ago, SCBills said:

It’s honestly bizarre that neolibs and neocons are simping for … checks notes … Prizoghin and ultra-right wing backed Wagner Group. 
 

Most of the “pro-Putin” rhetoric was simply opposition to the funding of forever proxy wars and the use of Ukraine as collateral damage.

 

We have no idea how this turns out, and you’re putting a lot of faith in Putin not becoming a wounded animal with nukes and/or Prizoghin .. a maniacal mercenary .. now becoming the de facto leader of Russia and acting in a diplomatic fashion. 
 

Perhaps we can strike a deal with Prizoghin, as he seems to talk out of both sides of his mouth, but this situation (with nuclear weapons involved) is hardly something to be taking victory laps over.   
 

How many times have we orchestrated regime change only for it to completely backfire?

 

Don't bother.  They can't see beyond their noses.  Regime change is always awesome!

[B-Man]

 

 

 

 

 

[John from Riverside]

34 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I said when all the libs were getting their panties in a twist over Elon buying Twitter, saying it was going to go under, that it was the most powerful and useful news tool out there and wasn't going anywhere.

Twitter was never going to go under too big to fail. It’s not like some of the others that I’ve come along that didn’t survive long enough to have a chance to very smart person. Once told me that if you can keep a business alive for a year you’ve got a fighting shot of keeping it going. 
 

It’s not from lack of trying, that it hasn’t gone under Elon musk is an idiot, but he’s a rich idiot

[SCBills]

New flag for the Twitter handles

 

 

[BillsFanNC]

 

[John from Riverside]

The new developments between Wagner and Russian forces are interesting

 

You never really know what the Russians are going to do they might be trying to wipe Wagner out while still fighting a war with Ukraine or they might come to terms. Either way all of this is bad trying to fight two different wars on two different fronts, if that is actually what is happening. 

 

Not really understanding why Russia would even do this serious dissension among them

[yall]

17 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

I found Prigozhin's video manifesto. Basically the high points are:

1. NATO and Ukraine were never planning to attack.

2. Demilitarization and Denazification were propaganda to spoon feed to the Russian public.

3. The war was started because Putin and his cronies wanted  land and cash, and the army wanted a short, victorious war. 

Wait you mean so all the stuff that all the idiots have been denying?

 

I'm shocked....

[John from Riverside]

2 minutes ago, BillsFanNC said:

 

So is it your opinion that you need people armed with guns in order to have an insurrection?
 

 

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Twitter was never going to go under too big to fail. It’s not like some of the others that I’ve come along that didn’t survive long enough to have a chance to very smart person. Once told me that if you can keep a business alive for a year you’ve got a fighting shot of keeping it going. 
 

It’s not from lack of trying, that it hasn’t gone under Elon musk is an idiot, but he’s a rich idiot

 

He's nothing of the sort.  Just because you may not agree with his politics (he was a Dem), it doesn't make him an idiot.

[B-Man]

 

 

A COUP IN RUSSIA?

By John Hindraker

 

 

In a stunning turn of events, the Wagner Group under Yevgeny Prigozhin has revolted against the Russian Army, and has turned eastward from Ukraine and taken the city of Rostov. Prigozhin justified his rebellion by asserting that the Russian military had bombed one of his units, but that is unconfirmed. Initially there didn’t appear to be serious fighting between Wagner and Russian military units, but Wagner’s mercenaries are now marching rapidly on Moscow and are being fired on by Russian military helicopters.

 

So, is it a coup against Vladimir Putin? It didn’t start out as such. Wagner has been seen as Putin’s private army, and Prigozhin has cast himself as a Russian patriot protesting the incompetent prosecution of the Ukraine war. He has directed his attacks against Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu, whom he hates, not against Putin.

 

But Putin has denounced Prigozhin as a traitor and called for his arrest. It is hard to imagine the two of them meeting cordially if and when Wagner’s forces reach Moscow.

 

Is this the beginning of the end for Putin? Perhaps not. Wagner has around 25,000 men. Despite its weak performance in Ukraine, I assume the combined efforts of Russia’s Army and Air Force would be enough to defeat them. Assuming that is the case, or that some kind of truce is achieved, where would that leave Putin? When a dictator is discredited by his own incompetence, a common scenario is that the army turns on him and forces him out of office. On the other hand, when a dictator retains the loyalty of his armed forces–see Venezuela and Cuba–there seems to be no end to the disasters he can survive.

 

The Russian army’s poor performance in Ukraine has weakened it to the point that it may not have the moral authority to topple Putin. And, assuming Wagner’s forces can be neutralized in one way or another, the army’s goal presumably will be stability, an objective that seemingly would not be advanced by trying to force Putin out. So who knows, “the Tsar” might survive.

 

I suspect, on the other hand, that the Ukraine war may be close to being over. Wagner’s units were the most effective elements of the Russian forces. Now they, along with Army units, have marched out of Ukraine to the East, apparently on their way to Moscow. If Wagner is crushed or demobilized, and with Ukraine now armed, ready and presumably in possession of the field, it is hard to imagine Russia’s remaining forces launching another offensive against that country.

 

The situation in Russia is evolving rapidly, and all of this speculation may turn out to be wrong. But that is how things look to me, anyway, at the moment.

 

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/06/a-coup-in-russia.php

[John from Riverside]

40 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Twitter is everywhere and can just keep up--both factually and with misinformation--faster than a media organization. I never used twitter until this war started

I still don’t use it. I read them whenever people post them. But I’m not an active user.

Just now, B-Man said:

 

 

A COUP IN RUSSIA?

By John Hindraker

 

 

In a stunning turn of events, the Wagner Group under Yevgeny Prigozhin has revolted against the Russian Army, and has turned eastward from Ukraine and taken the city of Rostov. Prigozhin justified his rebellion by asserting that the Russian military had bombed one of his units, but that is unconfirmed. Initially there didn’t appear to be serious fighting between Wagner and Russian military units, but Wagner’s mercenaries are now marching rapidly on Moscow and are being fired on by Russian military helicopters.

 

So, is it a coup against Vladimir Putin? It didn’t start out as such. Wagner has been seen as Putin’s private army, and Prigozhin has cast himself as a Russian patriot protesting the incompetent prosecution of the Ukraine war. He has directed his attacks against Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu, whom he hates, not against Putin.

 

But Putin has denounced Prigozhin as a traitor and called for his arrest. It is hard to imagine the two of them meeting cordially if and when Wagner’s forces reach Moscow.

 

Is this the beginning of the end for Putin? Perhaps not. Wagner has around 25,000 men. Despite its weak performance in Ukraine, I assume the combined efforts of Russia’s Army and Air Force would be enough to defeat them. Assuming that is the case, or that some kind of truce is achieved, where would that leave Putin? When a dictator is discredited by his own incompetence, a common scenario is that the army turns on him and forces him out of office. On the other hand, when a dictator retains the loyalty of his armed forces–see Venezuela and Cuba–there seems to be no end to the disasters he can survive.

 

The Russian army’s poor performance in Ukraine has weakened it to the point that it may not have the moral authority to topple Putin. And, assuming Wagner’s forces can be neutralized in one way or another, the army’s goal presumably will be stability, an objective that seemingly would not be advanced by trying to force Putin out. So who knows, “the Tsar” might survive.

 

I suspect, on the other hand, that the Ukraine war may be close to being over. Wagner’s units were the most effective elements of the Russian forces. Now they, along with Army units, have marched out of Ukraine to the East, apparently on their way to Moscow. If Wagner is crushed or demobilized, and with Ukraine now armed, ready and presumably in possession of the field, it is hard to imagine Russia’s remaining forces launching another offensive against that country.

 

The situation in Russia is evolving rapidly, and all of this speculation may turn out to be wrong. But that is how things look to me, anyway, at the moment.

 

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/06/a-coup-in-russia.php

When your enemy is acting like a drunk ballerina, just stay out of their way and open the door so they can spin out into the street

[Joe Ferguson forever]

15 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Define “win”

 

Did we win when we took out Gaddafi?

 

Did we win when we took out Saddam?

Winning is stopping an invader of a sovereign nation that now owes us, big time.  And another NATO country

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

He's nothing of the sort.  Just because you may not agree with his politics (he was a Dem), it doesn't make him an idiot.

Actually, I think I used the wrong words he’s not an idiot he just does idiotic things from time to time

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

52 minutes ago, SCBills said:

It’s wild how much better the coverage of this situation is on Twitter than on any of the media networks..

 

I know there’s an aversion by some here to listen in when they see some of the participants typically in a Mario Nawfal space, but he will bring in people from all sides.
 

He’s been going for about 16 hours now and currently Lev Parnas and Malcolm Nance are two of the speakers in the mix … they are certainly not members of the right wing populist crowd. 

Other speakers are some people in Moscow, foreign policy analysts and former military/intel. 

 

 

I watched that that stream. It was informative. I just tuned out whenever Kimdotcom started talking. 

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Actually, I think I used the wrong words he’s not an idiot he just does idiotic things from time to time

 

I used to be a huge Musk skeptic.  Then I saw SpaceX land that used rocket back on a platform in the sea.  Made me buy a Tesla and make a pile on Tesla stock.  Now I think he's playing 5D chess with seemingly idiotic moves...

Edited June 24, 2023 by Doc

[Coffeesforclosers]

7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

So is it your opinion that you need people armed with guns in order to have an insurrection?
 

 

 

Posobiec programs people into Red vs Blue twitterbrains. Of course he's going to try and turn this into a Red vs. Blue issue. 

[B-Man]