Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[All_Pro_Bills]

9 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Sure, bloody Putin would never murder people wholesale. God bless those Republicans saving Putin the grief of having Ukraine able to defend itself. Let freedom rain down on all of those Trump likes, and no one else 

If you accept the premise of all these reports you can only conclude the Russian military is incapable of hitting any targets except apartment buildings, schools, hospitals, shopping districts, and other civilian assets while completely missing all military targets of any value.  Which begs the question why the war isn't over?

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

If you accept the premise of all these reports you can only conclude the Russian military is incapable of hitting any targets except apartment buildings, schools, hospitals, shopping districts, and other civilian assets while completely missing all military targets of any value.  Which begs the question why the war isn't over?

That's what terrorist do

[All_Pro_Bills]

27 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

That's what terrorist do

You demonstrate expert ability at answering a question without providing an answer.  You'd make an excellent white house press secretary.

[Tommy Callahan]

They cannot hit any of the financial/governance demands but damit.  There is a war to be had. 

 

 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Tommy Callahan said:

They cannot hit any of the financial/governance demands but damit.  There is a war to be had. 

 

 

After the war.  Right?

[Tommy Callahan]

48 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

After the war.  Right?

I hope but that's not how it's sounding. Unless they are close to a ceasefire or end to the war. 

[B-Man]

 

[Tommy Callahan]

Sorry

 

[B-Man]

 

 

Uh-huh.

 

Zelensky Issues Ultimatum, Warns Ukraine ‘Will Lose’ If U.S. Refuses Further Aid

 

 

 

https://redstate.com/benkew/2024/04/08/zelensky-issues-ultimatum-warns-ukraine-will-lose-if-us-refuses-further-aid-n2172495

 

 

.

[Tommy Callahan]

This isn't good. 

 

 

[L Ron Burgundy]

7 hours ago, Tommy Callahan said:

This isn't good. 

 

 

When you say this isn't good, do you perhaps mean made up?  I'm guessing the Twitter incel community is working hard sharing this to make it go viral though. 

Edited April 10 by L Ron Burgundy

[All_Pro_Bills]

2 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

When you say this isn't good, do you perhaps mean made up?  I'm guessing the Twitter incel community is working hard sharing this to make it go viral though. 

I'm skeptical of this Burisma connection but I also never believed the ISIS-K story either.  My guess is State intel of some nation or two, etc., is behind the attack.  Some terrorist group?  Come on.

Edited April 10 by All_Pro_Bills

[L Ron Burgundy]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I'm skeptical of this Burisma connection but I also never believed the ISIS-K story either.  My guess is State intel of some nation or two, etc., is behind the attack.  Some terrorist group?  Come on.

It's an absurd accusation and it doesn't make sense.

 

Ukraine is trying to be the "good guy" in this war.  Sure there's the occasional rogue incident but that will happen when one side is castrating enemy soldiers and raping anything breathing.  Having spent years in the region trust me when I say there's a segment of the population who are barely human.  

 

It's amazing Zelensky has his soldiers not answering in kind more often.  

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

9 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

It's an absurd accusation and it doesn't make sense.

 

Ukraine is trying to be the "good guy" in this war.  Sure there's the occasional rogue incident but that will happen when one side is castrating enemy soldiers and raping anything breathing.  Having spent years in the region trust me when I say there's a segment of the population who are barely human.  

 

It's amazing Zelensky has his soldiers not answering in kind more often.  

I don’t know anything about the region, and a Burisma connection seems unreasonably convenient.  It would fall into the “50+ of our most experienced intelligence experts declare a laptop to be Russian malfeasance right before a highly contentious presidential election” convenient, but that’s a different discussion.

 

With respect to Ukrainian activity, I’d think it’s fair to consider whether or not “occasional rogue incidents” accurately reflects what’s going on there.  It would seem unlikely that one side is practicing barbarism on the scale of 10/7, and the other maintaining operational and ethical discipline while in a fight to the death.

[All_Pro_Bills]

22 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I don’t know anything about the region, and a Burisma connection seems unreasonably convenient.  It would fall into the “50+ of our most experienced intelligence experts declare a laptop to be Russian malfeasance right before a highly contentious presidential election” convenient, but that’s a different discussion.

 

With respect to Ukrainian activity, I’d think it’s fair to consider whether or not “occasional rogue incidents” accurately reflects what’s going on there.  It would seem unlikely that one side is practicing barbarism on the scale of 10/7, and the other maintaining operational and ethical discipline while in a fight to the death.

I forget the song but it goes something like this...  "There's 3 sides to every story.  Yours, mine, and the truth". 

 

If you talk to Ukraine and the West the Russians are intent on destroying democracy in Ukraine and invading Europe with the goal of re-uniting the former Soviet Union.

If you talk to Russia, the west and NATO want to encircle and isolate their country with the intent of taking over and stealing their resources like oil and mineral resources.

The truth might meet somewhere in between. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

40 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I forget the song but it goes something like this...  "There's 3 sides to every story.  Yours, mine, and the truth". 

 

If you talk to Ukraine and the West the Russians are intent on destroying democracy in Ukraine and invading Europe with the goal of re-uniting the former Soviet Union.

If you talk to Russia, the west and NATO want to encircle and isolate their country with the intent of taking over and stealing their resources like oil and mineral resources.

The truth might meet somewhere in between. 

Yes, I think that expression has broad application in life, and try to consider the perspective of the other party when speaking on subjects that are interesting to me. 
 

With respect to La Ron’s post, the added layer of complexity is the tone and direction of reporting coming out of the conflict.    As we have so often seen, an administration can flex its muscles to encourage stories be told in a certain way, with certain facts revealed and others withheld.  

My point simply was while the Ukrainians may well be skilled, effective and disciplined fighters who follow such strict rules of engagement that acts of vengeance and rapidly dispensed field justice are few and far between, but I wouldn’t bet on it.   

[Tommy Callahan]

15 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

Twitter incel community is working hard sharing this to make it go viral though. 

The iron law of projection.

 

 

you constantly use that term and its kinda reads like projection. 

 

 

but then again, the left has this issue with accusing others of doing/being exactly what they are.

 

 

 

 

[Tommy Callahan]

Did Ukraine attack a NATO member? 

 

 

Edited April 10 by Tommy Callahan

[L Ron Burgundy]

2 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I don’t know anything about the region, and a Burisma connection seems unreasonably convenient.  It would fall into the “50+ of our most experienced intelligence experts declare a laptop to be Russian malfeasance right before a highly contentious presidential election” convenient, but that’s a different discussion.

 

With respect to Ukrainian activity, I’d think it’s fair to consider whether or not “occasional rogue incidents” accurately reflects what’s going on there.  It would seem unlikely that one side is practicing barbarism on the scale of 10/7, and the other maintaining operational and ethical discipline while in a fight to the death.

Unreasonably convenient would be right.  Absurdly so.

 

Technology has made it so you can't get away with things like you used to.  

 

I'm not saying Ukraine are the good guys but they are trying to be.  

 

Now Russia on the other hand has given awards notorious war criminals.  Bucha was pretty bad.  A lot of atrocities are actually online.   Some of the worst, Russians took videos of themselves.   

 

Yes as Ap said 3 sides, I agree.  But there's an obvious difference between the 2 sides.  

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

19 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

Unreasonably convenient would be right.  Absurdly so.

We already agreed on the Burisma connection.  Moveon.com! 

 

19 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

 

Technology has made it so you can't get away with things like you used to.  

I don't know what this means to you, but censorship and withholding/manipulation of the truth is alive and well---and it seems that everyone with a pulse agrees on that.  You might say it's one side, I might think it's the other, but the masses are still yearning for an honest, ethical free press. 

 

19 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

 

I'm not saying Ukraine are the good guys but they are trying to be.  

I'll circle back to where I started.  I could not tell you a bit about Ukraine, Russia, borders, culture, and who seized who(m)'s lands, who misappropriated what, and what percentage of the Ukrainian population might well want to return to Mother Russia (though from wiki, the population is 17% Russian, which makes me wonder).  I can't tell you about hostilities, who said what to whom, and who has partnered with what foreign adversary.   I will say I am extraordinarily cautious on declaring any side 'the good guys' to the extent I believe there are only a few isolated instances of torture by a rogue band of soldiers.  That defies common sense. 

 

 

19 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

 

Now Russia on the other hand has given awards notorious war criminals.  Bucha was pretty bad.  A lot of atrocities are actually online.   Some of the worst, Russians took videos of themselves.   

No argument.  

19 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

 

Yes as Ap said 3 sides, I agree.  But there's an obvious difference between the 2 sides.  

If you have to pick a side, I agree you pick the lesser of two evils, and one that more closely aligns with our nation's strategic interest.   Russia hasn't fit that bill since just before the election of 2016.  Besides, after JB famously got rid of that one bad apple in a country of 33 million people, we can sleep easy at night knowing our money and weapons are going to a  corruption free zone. 

Edited April 10 by leh-nerd skin-erd

[Tiberius]

3 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

We already agreed on the Burisma connection.  Moveon.com! 

 

I don't know what this means to you, but censorship and withholding/manipulation of the truth is alive and well---and it seems that everyone with a pulse agrees on that.  You might say it's one side, I might think it's the other, but the masses are still yearning for an honest, ethical free press. 

 

I'll circle back to where I started.  I could not tell you a bit about Ukraine, Russia, borders, culture, and who seized who(m)'s lands, who misappropriated what, and what percentage of the Ukrainian population might well want to return to Mother Russia (though from wiki, the population is 17% Russian, which makes me wonder).  I can't tell you about hostilities, who said what to whom, and who has partnered with what foreign adversary.   I will say I am extraordinarily cautious on declaring any side 'the good guys' to the extent I believe there are only a few isolated instances of torture by a rogue band of soldiers.  That defies common sense. 

 

 

No argument.  

If you have to pick a side, I agree you pick the lesser of two evils, and one that more closely aligns with our nation's strategic interest.   Russia hasn't fit that bill since just before the election of 2016.  Besides, after JB famously got rid of that one bad apple in a country of 33 million people, we can sleep easy at night knowing our money and weapons are going to a  corruption free zone. 

Oh, you don't see the aggressor as bad? The nation being bombarded with missiles, drones and artillery as the victim? The democracy vs the dictatorship?

 

I was about to say the country that attacked--is attacking--our election system, but no way in hell would you accept that, so never mind.

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

41 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Oh, you don't see the aggressor as bad? The nation being bombarded with missiles, drones and artillery as the victim? The democracy vs the dictatorship?

I see the aggressor as bad. 

I see the nation, more accurately the citizens, being bombarded as victims.

 

I remain unconvinced that Ukraine is a bastion of democracy, mostly because there seems to be a history of corruption associated with the government.  The fact that the US is providing assistance to Ukraine in no way means they are above question or reproach.   There is ample history of the US government assisting governments, dictators and some not-so-great people.  

 

That said, Ukraine could be a democratic Utopia as you believe, I just don't know that to be true. 

 

41 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

 

I was about to say the country that attacked--is attacking--our election system, but no way in hell would you accept that, so never mind.

 

 

Language, Tibsy, language!  H E 🏒 🏒 conveys a similar meaning but doesn't expose tender ears to your vulgarity. 

 

As for election attacks, I accept that Russia has, is, and will attempt to impact our elections.  It's common knowledge that governments do these things.  Look at Ch. Schumer and his comments on Israel.  They got you all riled up, but it's the same old same old. Think Saudi government, and you and your liberal kinfolk getting all torn about MBS for 5 minutes under one administration, raging about how your man Biden was going to bust him up when he got in until, suddenly, he's in, nothing happens, he's besties with MBS and you're booking your trip to Sandals Riyadh. 

 

Some things just are, my friend. 

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

10 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I see the aggressor as bad. 

I see the nation, more accurately the citizens, being bombarded as victims.

 

I remain unconvinced that Ukraine is a bastion of democracy, mostly because there seems to be a history of corruption associated with the government.  The fact that the US is providing assistance to Ukraine in no way means they are above question or reproach.   There is ample history of the US government assisting governments, dictators and some not-so-great people.  

 

That said, Ukraine could be a democratic Utopia as you believe, I just don't know that to be true. 

 

Language, Tibsy, language!  H E 🏒 🏒 conveys a similar meaning but doesn't expose tender ears to your vulgarity. 

 

As for election attacks, I accept that Russia has, is, and will attempt to impact our elections.  It's common knowledge that governments do these things.  Look at Ch. Schumer and his comments on Israel.  They got you all riled up, but it's the same old same old. Think Saudi government, and you and your liberal kinfolk getting all torn about MBS for 5 minutes under one administration, raging about how your man Biden was going to bust him up when he got in until, suddenly, he's in, nothing happens, he's besties with MBS and you're booking your trip to Sandals Riyadh. 

 

Some things just are, my friend. 

 

 

Do people believe the US isn't out there attempting to influence elections in other countries?  If they care to acknowledge that I'm sure they'd argue its all for a good cause.

As for Russia doing it.  Sure they do.  But what comes to mind is the old adage "what's good for the Goose is good for the Gander".

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

4 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Do people believe the US isn't out there attempting to influence elections in other countries?  If they care to acknowledge that I'm sure they'd argue its all for a good cause.

As for Russia doing it.  Sure they do.  But what comes to mind is the old adage "what's good for the Goose is good for the Gander".

I think people like Tibsy know it happens, but to acknowledge that requires acknowledgement of the innate hypocrisy of a hard and fast position on anything political.  Witness what happened with Biden and top secret docs---many here went from thinking Trump was the only one who ever had docs, to nibbling on the notion of 'slippage' when offered as a plausible explanation to why Biden possessed, to eating on the whole enchilada of slippage, recklessness, documents at multiple locations, no safe guards, no concerns about obstruction, Biden revealing national secrets, and finally Biden claiming a witch hunt in play against him as all perfectly normal Washington behavior.  

 

Situational ethics in play, I guess.  

🤷‍♂️

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I see the aggressor as bad. 

I see the nation, more accurately the citizens, being bombarded as victims.

 

I remain unconvinced that Ukraine is a bastion of democracy, mostly because there seems to be a history of corruption associated with the government.  The fact that the US is providing assistance to Ukraine in no way means they are above question or reproach.   There is ample history of the US government assisting governments, dictators and some not-so-great people.  

 

That said, Ukraine could be a democratic Utopia as you believe, I just don't know that to be true. 

 

 

 

Fine, they have warts, so what? What country doesn't have corruption? 

1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

 

 

Language, Tibsy, language!  H E 🏒 🏒 conveys a similar meaning but doesn't expose tender ears to your vulgarity. 

 

As for election attacks, I accept that Russia has, is, and will attempt to impact our elections.  It's common knowledge that governments do these things.  Look at Ch. Schumer and his comments on Israel.  They got you all riled up, but it's the same old same old. Think Saudi government, and you and your liberal kinfolk getting all torn about MBS for 5 minutes under one administration, raging about how your man Biden was going to bust him up when he got in until, suddenly, he's in, nothing happens, he's besties with MBS and you're booking your trip to Sandals Riyadh. 

 

Some things just are, my friend. 

 

 

Oh hey, everyone does it, whatever 

[L Ron Burgundy]

32 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Fine, they have warts, so what? What country doesn't have corruption? 

Oh hey, everyone does it, whatever 

Getting away from Russia's influence has helped every single former Russian satellite state tremendously when it comes to corruption.   There's a reason for that.  It's beaten into their culture.  Excising cancer isn't easy.

 

Ukraine is a f'd up country.   They are trying to westernize/ be what we call normal.   Russia doesn't like that.  Yes nato encroachment factors too, lots of factors.  But Russia definitely wants their control over Ukraine. 

[Tiberius]

 

Yet the "religious" right blocks aid to Ukraine? 

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

5 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Fine, they have warts, so what? What country doesn't have corruption? 
 

You originally asked me three questions, I answered them.  None of those questions was “Fine, they have warts, so what?”  or “What country doesn’t have corruption”?  
 

I think we agreed on the answers to the first round of questions, let’s cherish the moment. 

 

5 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Oh hey, everyone does it, whatever 

Well, actually, you  just made a similar point, when you asked “What country doesn’t have corruption?”.  Don’t you remember?  I’m getting worried about you.  

[Tiberius]

9 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

You originally asked me three questions, I answered them.  None of those questions was “Fine, they have warts, so what?”  or “What country doesn’t have corruption”?  
 

I think we agreed on the answers to the first round of questions, let’s cherish the moment. 

 

Well, actually, you  just made a similar point, when you asked “What country doesn’t have corruption?”.  Don’t you remember?  I’m getting worried about you.  

You go and worry your little head off

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

17 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

You go and worry your little head off

It’s what I do, Tibs, I care too much sometimes. 

[BillStime]

🎯

 

 

[BillStime]

 

[BillStime]

 

[ChiGoose]

Bang up job, GOP.  At what point can we just all admit that they actually want this. 
 

 

[Tiberius]

35 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

Bang up job, GOP.  At what point can we just all admit that they actually want this. 
 

 

Pure evil!

 

Pass a damn bill and get our friends they help they deserve!

[Tommy Callahan]

Another Day of Ukraine small attacks in Russia, then Russia responding with insane missile barrages that the(our) missile defense can't defend from

 

 

But if we keep throwing money at it???

 

More dead civilians?  More profits to the MIC?

 

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Pure evil!

 

Pass a damn bill and get our friends they help they deserve!

Cause that's worked great the last dozen times.

 

 

[BillStime]

Sounds like DEMS are going to save him when MQT tries to take him down.

 

 

[Tiberius]

Glory!!!! 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/04/19/israel-ukraine-aid-house-speaker-mike-johnson/

 

A bipartisan coalition in the House, led by House Speaker Mike Johnson (R-La.), has overcome a key procedural hurdle to advance a $95 billion foreign aid bill, despite objections from far-right lawmakers.

  

The vote now puts the legislation to fund Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan on a likely track of passing the House on Saturday. It comes after Israel carried out a strike on Iran early Friday in retaliation for a barrage of missiles and drones launched by Iran last weekend, an Israeli official said.

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

Wacko