Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Tiberius]

11 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Ha! I read UK as Great Britain. 😳

Pretend it's 1940 and Great Britain is being pressed by the Blitz and our Conservative isolationists were saying, "Mind our own business" 

 

Murrow remained in London after the outbreak of the Second World War and his eyewitness reports on the Blitz made him a national figure in the United States. On 10th September 1940 he reported: "We could see little men shovelling those fire bombs into the river. One burned for a few minutes like a beacon right in the middle of a bridge. Finally those white flames all went out. No one bothers about the white light, it's only when it turns yellow that a real fire has started. I must have seen well over a hundred fire bombs come down and only three small fires were started. The incendiaries aren't so bad if there is someone there to deal with them, but those oil bombs present more difficulties. As I watched those white fires flame up and die down, watched the yellow blazes grow dull and disappear, I thought, what a puny effort is this to burn a great city."

[All_Pro_Bills]

49 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Pretend it's 1940 and Great Britain is being pressed by the Blitz and our Conservative isolationists were saying, "Mind our own business" 

 

Murrow remained in London after the outbreak of the Second World War and his eyewitness reports on the Blitz made him a national figure in the United States. On 10th September 1940 he reported: "We could see little men shovelling those fire bombs into the river. One burned for a few minutes like a beacon right in the middle of a bridge. Finally those white flames all went out. No one bothers about the white light, it's only when it turns yellow that a real fire has started. I must have seen well over a hundred fire bombs come down and only three small fires were started. The incendiaries aren't so bad if there is someone there to deal with them, but those oil bombs present more difficulties. As I watched those white fires flame up and die down, watched the yellow blazes grow dull and disappear, I thought, what a puny effort is this to burn a great city."

Some suggest we should pretend its more like 1914 when various alliances and treaties among nations brought those parties into a conflict that would be called Word War I.  Triggered by the assassination of an Archduke when soon after Austria-Hungary declaring war against Serbia followed by countries allied via treaty with no direct interests getting involved in one side or the other.  Millions died as a result of the killing of one man most had never heard of before.

Edited March 15, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Pretend it's 1940 and Great Britain is being pressed by the Blitz and our Conservative isolationists were saying, "Mind our own business" 

 

Murrow remained in London after the outbreak of the Second World War and his eyewitness reports on the Blitz made him a national figure in the United States. On 10th September 1940 he reported: "We could see little men shovelling those fire bombs into the river. One burned for a few minutes like a beacon right in the middle of a bridge. Finally those white flames all went out. No one bothers about the white light, it's only when it turns yellow that a real fire has started. I must have seen well over a hundred fire bombs come down and only three small fires were started. The incendiaries aren't so bad if there is someone there to deal with them, but those oil bombs present more difficulties. As I watched those white fires flame up and die down, watched the yellow blazes grow dull and disappear, I thought, what a puny effort is this to burn a great city."

Tibs

It’s your opinion that Putin is interested in marching on Paris? Okie Dokie 

[ChiGoose]

9 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Tibs

It’s your opinion that Putin is interested in marching on Paris? Okie Dokie 

Nah, more likely Tbilisi, Kyiv, and Transnistria. 
 

If those go well, maybe he’ll want Tallinn, Riga, and Vilnius too. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by ChiGoose

[L Ron Burgundy]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Tibs

It’s your opinion that Putin is interested in marching on Paris? Okie Dokie 

Nope.  Maybe Warsaw and Prague though.  And that is insane.  Former Soviet satellites hate Russia.   For very good reason.   They want nothing to do with them and their ultra corrupt way of life.  Not to mention the whole slave to Russia thing.  We have a economic interest in a healthy Europe if that's not enough.   

 

Sorry for answering for you Tibs.

[reddogblitz]

On 3/12/2023 at 9:09 AM, B-Man said:

 

 

THANKS BIDEN: U.S. Weapons Sent To Ukraine Are Now Being Found in Iran

by Kyle Becker

 

Military aid provided by the United States and its NATO allies to Ukraine is being found in the hands of Iranians, according to a new CNN report. “Russia has been capturing some of the US and NATO-provided weapons and equipment left on the battlefield in Ukraine and sending them to Iran, where the US believes Tehran will try to reverse-engineer the systems,” four sources familiar with the matter told CNN. “Over the last year, US, NATO and other Western officials have seen several instances of Russian forces seizing smaller, shoulder-fired weapons equipment including Javelin anti-tank and Stinger anti-aircraft systems

 

https://trendingpoliticsnews.com/u-s-nato-weapons-knab/

 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/10/politics/russia-iran-ukraine-weapons/index.html

 

.

 

 

[Tommy Callahan]

3 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

Another wedge issue for the R's

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/a-republican-civil-war-on-ukraine-erupts-as-reagan-s-example-fades/ar-AA18Ehiq

Nice. referencing Bush War mongering.  

 

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Some suggest we should pretend its more like 1914 when various alliances and treaties among nations brought those parties into a conflict that would be called Word War I.  Triggered by the assassination of an Archduke when soon after Austria-Hungary declaring war against Serbia followed by countries allied via treaty with no direct interests getting involved in one side or the other.  Millions died as a result of the killing of one man most had never heard of before.

More people would think Franz Ferdinand is a Disney character than the who he was.

 

 

https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Ferdinand_the_Bull_(character)

 

Even less remember the name of the piece of crap anarchist that killed him to get all that going.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Chris farley

[Joe Ferguson forever]

17 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

More people would think Franz Ferdinand is a Disney character than the who he was.

 

[SoCal Deek]

3 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

Nope.  Maybe Warsaw and Prague though.  And that is insane.  Former Soviet satellites hate Russia.   For very good reason.   They want nothing to do with them and their ultra corrupt way of life.  Not to mention the whole slave to Russia thing.  We have a economic interest in a healthy Europe if that's not enough.   

 

Sorry for answering for you Tibs.

So you agree then…this is NOT analogous to WW2. 
Thanks! 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

So you agree then…this is NOT analogous to WW2. 
Thanks! 

I think we all hope it's not.  That's what we're trying to prevent.

[JDHillFan]

Does BHO love Putin? Should he move to Russia? People want to know. 

[ChiGoose]

47 minutes ago, JDHillFan said:

Does BHO love Putin? Should he move to Russia? People want to know. 

Obama was incredibly wrong about Russia 

[SoCal Deek]

2 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

I think we all hope it's not.  That's what we're trying to prevent.

So you think Hitler was just making it up as he went along? Okie w

[Joe Ferguson forever]

12 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

So you think Hitler was just making it up as he went along? Okie w

I think most of the world thought he would stop...

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, redtail hawk said:

I think most of the world thought he would stop...

So once again, you believe Putin will be marching on Paris? Let me know when because I’m planning to go to London to see the Bills in October. 😉

[Joe Ferguson forever]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

So once again, you believe Putin will be marching on Paris? Let me know when because I’m planning to go to London to see the Bills in October. 😉

No, I didn't say that.  I think he wants Poland and possibly some of the Balkans.  I think we've weakened him so much that he can't, at this point.  Bravo...

[All_Pro_Bills]

13 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

No, I didn't say that.  I think he wants Poland and possibly some of the Balkans.  I think we've weakened him so much that he can't, at this point.  Bravo...

I'm not clear why Putin would be gunning for Poland mainly because empires and imperialism are typically driven by the desire to acquire resources, not just territory for the sake of more land.  As Russia is a resource rich country with a large land area already and Poland's main resource is coal reserves and production I don't see any strategic reason to go to the trouble.  And while the former Soviet Union engaged in gobbling up nations of Eastern Europe after WW2 that ended with the dissolution of the Union.  I'm aware of the theory being tossed about that Putin is obsessed with re-assembling the former Soviet Union but I think that's less fact and more fiction peddled by people using it to serve their own purposes rather than it being an accurate assessment of some policy objective.  For one, none of these countries are economic powerhouses and anybody taking them on would need to sink lots of cash into them.  Right now its the German's doing that though the EU and the Euro common currency.   Why not just wait until Germany gets tired of subsidizing everyone else and things fall apart to make any move?  Why start a fight?       

[Doc]

13 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

No, I didn't say that.  I think he wants Poland and possibly some of the Balkans.  I think we've weakened him so much that he can't, at this point.  Bravo...

 

Poland?  They were never part of the USSR and are in NATO.  No it seems he wanted to reconstitute the USSR and started (continued) with Ukraine, who he overestimated the degree to which they wanted to rejoin Russia.  He was sorely mistaken and has no chance to enter into a war with any other country.

[Tiberius]

Flying Tigers? 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

13 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

No, I didn't say that.  I think he wants Poland and possibly some of the Balkans.  I think we've weakened him so much that he can't, at this point.  Bravo...

So in your world view we needed to first watch him level a country, displace millions of innocent people, and kill thousands of young men and women just to make this point? Wouldn’t it have been far better to stop him BEFORE any of that happened? 

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

So in your world view we needed to first watch him level a country, displace millions of innocent people, and kill thousands of young men and women just to make this point? Wouldn’t it have been far better to stop him BEFORE any of that happened? 

How? 

[SoCal Deek]

13 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

How? 

Tell me this Tibs. How are we doing it now? 

[L Ron Burgundy]

19 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Poland?  They were never part of the USSR and are in NATO.  No it seems he wanted to reconstitute the USSR and started (continued) with Ukraine, who he overestimated the degree to which they wanted to rejoin Russia.  He was sorely mistaken and has no chance to enter into a war with any other country.

Poland was communist under the USSR rule until 89-90.  Not officially part of the USSR but 100% under their thumb.  Worse than say, Belarus now.  Belarus has at least some autonomy.   Poles were horribly oppressed during that time.   

 

All the former states that were in similar positions fookin haaate Russia (except Serbia for some reason).   

[Joe Ferguson forever]

21 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

So in your world view we needed to first watch him level a country, displace millions of innocent people, and kill thousands of young men and women just to make this point? Wouldn’t it have been far better to stop him BEFORE any of that happened? 

to make a point?  Russia invaded Ukraine and has a mad. imperialistic dictator.  What do you propose we should have done?

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

to make a point?  Russia invaded Ukraine and has a mad. imperialistic dictator.  What do you propose we should have done?

We forecasted EXACTLY what we were going to do when our pathetic leader told the world that a small incursion would be our limit. Now 310 pages later you see the result of that! Way to go Brandon. 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I'm not clear why Putin would be gunning for Poland mainly because empires and imperialism are typically driven by the desire to acquire resources, not just territory for the sake of more land.  As Russia is a resource rich country with a large land area already and Poland's main resource is coal reserves and production I don't see any strategic reason to go to the trouble.  And while the former Soviet Union engaged in gobbling up nations of Eastern Europe after WW2 that ended with the dissolution of the Union.  I'm aware of the theory being tossed about that Putin is obsessed with re-assembling the former Soviet Union but I think that's less fact and more fiction peddled by people using it to serve their own purposes rather than it being an accurate assessment of some policy objective.  For one, none of these countries are economic powerhouses and anybody taking them on would need to sink lots of cash into them.  Right now its the German's doing that though the EU and the Euro common currency.   Why not just wait until Germany gets tired of subsidizing everyone else and things fall apart to make any move?  Why start a fight?       

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/21/poland-ukraine-russia-putin-imperial-dreams/

 

https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/88585

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

We forecasted EXACTLY what we were going to do when our pathetic leader told the world that a small incursion would be our limit. Now 310 pages later you see the result of that! Way to go Brandon. 

So war was OK then but not now?

Edited March 16, 2023 by redtail hawk

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

Poland was communist under the USSR rule until 89-90.  Not officially part of the USSR but 100% under their thumb.  Worse than say, Belarus now.  Belarus has at least some autonomy.   Poles were horribly oppressed during that time.   

 

All the former states that were in similar positions fookin haaate Russia (except Serbia for some reason).   

 

Doesn't matter since they were never part of the USSR and thought so much of them that they decided to join NATO.

 

3 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

So war was OK then but not now?

 

No.  The point was Joke should have said "no aggression will be tolerated, period" from the beginning.

[Tiberius]

20 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Tell me this Tibs. How are we doing it now? 

Changing the subject from then to now? 

[L Ron Burgundy]

7 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Doesn't matter since they were never part of the USSR and thought so much of them that they decided to join NATO.

 

They pretty much were.  They were 100% under Russian control so it is possible that Putin wants what the Ussr had.  I don't personally think that's the case but Poland is worried enough that they've beefed up their military to the point they now swing the biggest stick in Europe military wise. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

They pretty much were.  They were 100% under Russian control so it is possible that Putin wants what the Ussr had.  I don't personally think that's the case but Poland is worried enough that they've beefed up their military to the point they now swing the biggest stick in Europe military wise.

 

Pretty much doesn't count for much when, again, they were never part of the USSR and are part of NATO.  Maybe in some fever dream Putin thought he could get Poland but it was never something he could do in reality.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

25 minutes ago, Doc said:

"no aggression will be tolerated, period" from the beginning.

I think the US said just that by supporting Ukraine intensively right after the invasion started.  Ya think Putin didn't know what our response would be before the invasion?  I think it's extremely likely this was clearly conveyed to him via our and NATO's diplomats.

Edited March 16, 2023 by redtail hawk

[SoCal Deek]

45 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Changing the subject from then to now? 

Hilarious 

So you believe our current strategy can only work when the battle line is drawn some arbitrary 60 miles INSIDE the Ukrainian border? 
Yeah that makes all kinds of sense….not. 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

6 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Hilarious 

So you believe our current strategy can only work when the battle line is drawn some arbitrary 60 miles INSIDE the Ukrainian border? 
Yeah that makes all kinds of sense….not. 

Still not clear on what you thought should have happened.  Fight the war when Russia annexed Crimea?

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, redtail hawk said:

Still not clear on what you thought should have happened.  Fight the war when Russia annexed Crimea?

How can I be any clearer? Geez! 
Crimea? Now what? 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

How can I be any clearer? Geez! 
Crimea? Now what? 

The results would likely not have been the same in a fight over Crimea

"On 24 August 2009, anti-Ukrainian demonstrations were held in Crimea by ethnic Russian residents. Sergei Tsekov (of the Russian Bloc[68] and then deputy speaker of the Crimean parliament[69]) said then that he hoped that Russia would treat Crimea the same way as it had treated South Ossetia and Abkhazia.[70] Crimea is populated by an ethnic Russian majority and a minority of both ethnic Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars, and thus demographically possessed one of Ukraine's largest ethnically Russian populations.[71]"

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, redtail hawk said:

The results would likely not have been the same in a fight over Crimea

"On 24 August 2009, anti-Ukrainian demonstrations were held in Crimea by ethnic Russian residents. Sergei Tsekov (of the Russian Bloc[68] and then deputy speaker of the Crimean parliament[69]) said then that he hoped that Russia would treat Crimea the same way as it had treated South Ossetia and Abkhazia.[70] Crimea is populated by an ethnic Russian majority and a minority of both ethnic Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars, and thus demographically possessed one of Ukraine's largest ethnically Russian populations.[71]"

 Very nice internet book report. We weren’t talking about Crimea? Were we? 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

 Very nice internet book report. We weren’t talking about Crimea? Were we? 

I am.  No idea what you are talking about...perhaps u could present your book report?

Edited March 16, 2023 by redtail hawk

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, redtail hawk said:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/21/poland-ukraine-russia-putin-imperial-dreams/

 

https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/88585

I'm familiar with the Putin quote, that the break up of the Soviet Union was the “greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century.”  Which many have translated into some strategic intent to reclaim dominion over those countries.  I just don't see it.  As it makes no sense to re-capture countries that would be a net drain on resources and funds.  Why not let the Americans take care of them and drain their resources?  Basically, Moscow offloaded a bunch of costly States to Washington to fund.  Why would they want them back?  Let the Americans support them, like we're doing now.  While draining away funds diverted from our core national interests.  We need to re-focus our resources on our core interests.  Worrying about Poland and Ukraine.  Not on that list. 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[Joe Ferguson forever]

15 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Worrying about Poland and Ukraine.  Not on that list. 

They're on mine...and NATO's.  NATO is a big part of the conversation and impetus on both sides.  We live in a small world, not a vacuum.

 

Do u believe that some of economic dominance springs from our military?

Edited March 16, 2023 by redtail hawk

[sherpa]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Flying Tigers? 

 

 

 

Insanity.

See how much he wants to do this without AWACS, US tanker capability, US electronic counter measures support and a host of other things that truly determine success.

 

But, I see his call sign is "Two Dogs."

That is a call sign with historic significance, and is funny.