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Harrison Phillips- Can he become what he was drafted for?


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1 hour ago, 3rdand12 said:

Might agree about  mentality he needs to have. 
He can spot at 1 tech. But will not be a traditional one, ever.
Thats on McBeanes vision for the Dline and that rotation and matchup week to week and down to down would be Mc Fraziers.
 I still have high hopes for the Kid

As mentioned , he played "tentatively " after the injury.

 But as the season went he showed more of he could do.

 

Lets go Harry !

Go Bills

 

I remember his first season. He was not a 1T coming out of college but the coach needed someone to sub for Star. Harrison was the guy who stood out the most as a viable replacement when Star needed to rest. You are right that coming out of college he most definitely was not a 1T, but he has proven to be pretty damn good at the position. Now that he's healthy, he may very well prove to be better than Star and take the starting position.

 

I found it really odd that the coach wanted Harrison to play the 1T to begin with. In college he had some sick numbers getting after the passer. The more I think about it though, watching us draft two DEs back to back in this years draft, drafting Ed Oliver and having something like 10 DEs on this team, it is becoming clear that the coach values pass rushers over run stuffers. I'm beginning to think that this team is looking for speed on the DLine rather than size/power. More of a NASCAR type defense where the front four are all getting after the passer. It's clear now that Harrison is valued not just to take on two blockers, but because he is one more person on that line that can drop a QB for a loss. It makes it difficult for an OL to choose who to double block. Star is useful simply by being big and powerful, eating double the blockers. Harrison is useful because he can also eat blockers and he can also shoot the gap and sack the QB.

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Theres no doubt Harrison had a monster year in 2012.  Not only was he a dominant pass rusher and run stuffer but he also was the team's starting running back, backup QB, and lined up at tight end.  If

From what I recall, Harrison played his best ball later in the year after spending some time on the inactive list.  I am optimistic he will have his best season this year.

Agree that everything points to them focusing on pass rush impact over stay-at-home types like Star.   The actions ever since Star opted out have spoken loudly.   I don't think Phillips was

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3 minutes ago, Rockinon said:

I remember his first season. He was not a 1T coming out of college but the coach needed someone to sub for Star. Harrison was the guy who stood out the most as a viable replacement when Star needed to rest. You are right that coming out of college he most definitely was not a 1T, but he has proven to be pretty damn good at the position. Now that he's healthy, he may very well prove to be better than Star and take the starting position.

 

I found it really odd that the coach wanted Harrison to play the 1T to begin with. In college he had some sick numbers getting after the passer. The more I think about it though, watching us draft two DEs back to back in this years draft, drafting Ed Oliver and having something like 10 DEs on this team, it is becoming clear that the coach values pass rushers over run stuffers. I'm beginning to think that this team is looking for speed on the DLine rather than size/power. More of a NASCAR type defense where the front four are all getting after the passer. It's clear now that Harrison is valued not just to take on two blockers, but because he is one more person on that line that can drop a QB for a loss. It makes it difficult for an OL to choose who to double block. Star is useful simply by being big and powerful, eating double the blockers. Harrison is useful because he can also eat blockers and he can also shoot the gap and sack the QB.

I feel same minus the bold.  31 games played and he hasn’t registered a full sack yet

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We talk how he played good in 2019 and we would’ve loved to see more. But we forget the Bills did see more of him. In training camp for a few weeks.
 

If he was performing at his 2019 level in training camp (seems likely) then that should assuage some of those fears.

 

He’s obviously at the facilities so the bills would also have good perspective on his approach this year relative to 2019. 

 

I like Joe Marino (I’m in his jersey raffle) but I think he might be missing what McBeane see. Star has gotten me worried so I’m really hoping for Harry to play out of his mind. 

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11 hours ago, Rockinon said:

I remember his first season. He was not a 1T coming out of college but the coach needed someone to sub for Star. Harrison was the guy who stood out the most as a viable replacement when Star needed to rest. You are right that coming out of college he most definitely was not a 1T, but he has proven to be pretty damn good at the position. Now that he's healthy, he may very well prove to be better than Star and take the starting position.

 

I found it really odd that the coach wanted Harrison to play the 1T to begin with. In college he had some sick numbers getting after the passer. The more I think about it though, watching us draft two DEs back to back in this years draft, drafting Ed Oliver and having something like 10 DEs on this team, it is becoming clear that the coach values pass rushers over run stuffers. I'm beginning to think that this team is looking for speed on the DLine rather than size/power. More of a NASCAR type defense where the front four are all getting after the passer. It's clear now that Harrison is valued not just to take on two blockers, but because he is one more person on that line that can drop a QB for a loss. It makes it difficult for an OL to choose who to double block. Star is useful simply by being big and powerful, eating double the blockers. Harrison is useful because he can also eat blockers and he can also shoot the gap and sack the QB.

Watching some of his college games. He played a lot of nose. Straight up on the center. Also reading some scouting reports, all say much better run defender than pass rusher, one even said "not a pro pass rusher".  A lot of his sacks were effort or coverage sacks. All four reports I read said he struggles at taking on double teams with his size, said he's a single block run defender. 

 

He's playing 1-tech because that's the closest fit for his skill set. Everyone compared him to Kyle Williams coming out and everyone thought he was gonna be this great interior pass rusher but anyone that watched him said he's the opposite of Kyle. Better against run vs pass. I'd he can improve vs double teams he will be fine at 1-tech. 

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2 hours ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Watching some of his college games. He played a lot of nose. Straight up on the center. Also reading some scouting reports, all say much better run defender than pass rusher, one even said "not a pro pass rusher".  A lot of his sacks were effort or coverage sacks. All four reports I read said he struggles at taking on double teams with his size, said he's a single block run defender. 

 

He's playing 1-tech because that's the closest fit for his skill set. Everyone compared him to Kyle Williams coming out and everyone thought he was gonna be this great interior pass rusher but anyone that watched him said he's the opposite of Kyle. Better against run vs pass. I'd he can improve vs double teams he will be fine at 1-tech. 

I must be confusing him with someone else, haha. The Bills picked up someone in the draft a couple of years ago with ridiculous numbers sacking the QB. Thought it was Harrison.

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53 minutes ago, Rockinon said:

I must be confusing him with someone else, haha. The Bills picked up someone in the draft a couple of years ago with ridiculous numbers sacking the QB. Thought it was Harrison.

He had 7 and 7.5 sacks his last two years at Stanford according to sports-reference.com, which is pretty good for a nose tackle. But I think those numbers are misleading. They were effort or coverage sacks for the most part. Hes a much better run defender than pass rusher at the moment and his stats and play in the pros shows that as well. 

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14 hours ago, Rockinon said:

I remember his first season. He was not a 1T coming out of college but the coach needed someone to sub for Star. Harrison was the guy who stood out the most as a viable replacement when Star needed to rest. You are right that coming out of college he most definitely was not a 1T, but he has proven to be pretty damn good at the position. Now that he's healthy, he may very well prove to be better than Star and take the starting position.

 

I found it really odd that the coach wanted Harrison to play the 1T to begin with. In college he had some sick numbers getting after the passer. The more I think about it though, watching us draft two DEs back to back in this years draft, drafting Ed Oliver and having something like 10 DEs on this team, it is becoming clear that the coach values pass rushers over run stuffers. I'm beginning to think that this team is looking for speed on the DLine rather than size/power. More of a NASCAR type defense where the front four are all getting after the passer. It's clear now that Harrison is valued not just to take on two blockers, but because he is one more person on that line that can drop a QB for a loss. It makes it difficult for an OL to choose who to double block. Star is useful simply by being big and powerful, eating double the blockers. Harrison is useful because he can also eat blockers and he can also shoot the gap and sack the QB.

 

 

Agree that everything points to them focusing on pass rush impact over stay-at-home types like Star.   The actions ever since Star opted out have spoken loudly.

 

I don't think Phillips was an outstanding pass rusher in college though........I watched him a lot at Stanford and yeah he had a couple 7 sack seasons in a pass-happy conference.......but he was really just a very active run defender at the LOS.    

 

I think fans often confuse the 1 tech responsibilities with those of a NT.

 

The NT is literally just trying to tie up blockers by lining directly over the center(who is prone to be off-balance) and forcing the offense to choose which guard to use to double him.     His job is to go thru the center not around him.

 

The 1 tech's job is to shoot the gap between the guard and center and EITHER absorb the double OR get into the backfield.   Marcel Dareus was an all-pro DT with double digit sacks mostly playing the 1 tech in Schwartz defense.   Nobody considered him just a space eater.   It's a position where the right player can still make a lot of plays.

 

Phillips is a 1 tech DT.    He isn't a true NT........but the Bills don't play an odd front and Star isn't a NT-capable player either.   Even when strategically positioned  as a 1 tech to FORCE double teams Star was still often single blocked.   Neither are truly massive.   What was nice about Phillips pre-injury was that he was getting off blocks and making tackles........a trait that Star lacks and many fans just assume that is by design because they think he has the limited responsibilities of a NT.  

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14 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

We talk how he played good in 2019 and we would’ve loved to see more. But we forget the Bills did see more of him. In training camp for a few weeks.
 

If he was performing at his 2019 level in training camp (seems likely) then that should assuage some of those fears.

 

He’s obviously at the facilities so the bills would also have good perspective on his approach this year relative to 2019. 

 

I like Joe Marino (I’m in his jersey raffle) but I think he might be missing what McBeane see. Star has gotten me worried so I’m really hoping for Harry to play out of his mind. 

Its possible Star was bought on as more of a very smart Vet who could bring the young horses into their own ?
and  1 tech was less important .
 I have seen him switch coverage via Edmunds on occasion plays !
 But the truth might be they have already moved on from him , and , that type of player.
 

I honestly expected them to draft a sincere 1tech fat kid who could hold his own against the run up the middle.
 But they did not. and that puts a nail in it. McDermott's  D Line Coaching /drafting theories.
 

 guys like Oliver and Phillips up front are the vision perhaps ?
 

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6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Agree that everything points to them focusing on pass rush impact over stay-at-home types like Star.   The actions ever since Star opted out have spoken loudly.

 

I don't think Phillips was an outstanding pass rusher in college though........I watched him a lot at Stanford and yeah he had a couple 7 sack seasons in a pass-happy conference.......but he was really just a very active run defender at the LOS.    

 

I think fans often confuse the 1 tech responsibilities with those of a NT.

 

The NT is literally just trying to tie up blockers by lining directly over the center(who is prone to be off-balance) and forcing the offense to choose which guard to use to double him.     His job is to go thru the center not around him.

 

The 1 tech's job is to shoot the gap between the guard and center and EITHER absorb the double OR get into the backfield.   Marcel Dareus was an all-pro DT with double digit sacks mostly playing the 1 tech in Schwartz defense.   Nobody considered him just a space eater.   It's a position where the right player can still make a lot of plays.

 

Phillips is a 1 tech DT.    He isn't a true NT........but the Bills don't play an odd front and Star isn't a NT-capable player either.   Even when strategically positioned  as a 1 tech to FORCE double teams Star was still often single blocked.   Neither are truly massive.   What was nice about Phillips pre-injury was that he was getting off blocks and making tackles........a trait that Star lacks and many fans just assume that is by design because they think he has the limited responsibilities of a NT.  

Thanks for the good post. I have been misusing the the titles 1T vs NT.

 Humbly corrected  Badol

 :)

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6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Agree that everything points to them focusing on pass rush impact over stay-at-home types like Star.   The actions ever since Star opted out have spoken loudly.

 

I don't think Phillips was an outstanding pass rusher in college though........I watched him a lot at Stanford and yeah he had a couple 7 sack seasons in a pass-happy conference.......but he was really just a very active run defender at the LOS.    

 

I think fans often confuse the 1 tech responsibilities with those of a NT.

 

The NT is literally just trying to tie up blockers by lining directly over the center(who is prone to be off-balance) and forcing the offense to choose which guard to use to double him.     His job is to go thru the center not around him.

 

The 1 tech's job is to shoot the gap between the guard and center and EITHER absorb the double OR get into the backfield.   Marcel Dareus was an all-pro DT with double digit sacks mostly playing the 1 tech in Schwartz defense.   Nobody considered him just a space eater.   It's a position where the right player can still make a lot of plays.

 

Phillips is a 1 tech DT.    He isn't a true NT........but the Bills don't play an odd front and Star isn't a NT-capable player either.   Even when strategically positioned  as a 1 tech to FORCE double teams Star was still often single blocked.   Neither are truly massive.   What was nice about Phillips pre-injury was that he was getting off blocks and making tackles........a trait that Star lacks and many fans just assume that is by design because they think he has the limited responsibilities of a NT.  

Great post

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Posted (edited)

Man I sure hope so because it doesn't look like Star is going to light it up. Because of the knee injury, we still don't really know how good he can be. I also recall that the press was giving him rave reviews in 2019, before the injury. We didn't draft any DT's so he should have every chance to get snaps and succeed as a Bill in 2021. Now let both Rousseau and Basham be the real deal. Also, it's time for Ed Oliver to take his game to the next level. He's been just OK and that's not OK.

Edited by GreggTX
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https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-harrison-phillips-acl-tear-recovery/

‘I DIDN’T HAVE A DAY OFF’: HARRISON PHILLIPS TALKS RECOVERY FROM ACL TEAR, GROWTH AS LEADER

 


 

Quote

Many [hardships],” Phillips told Cover 1. “Many, many, many. Just as many physically as mentally. It was very frustrating to try to do everything the right way, train the right way, practice hard, do everything you can, and your body still not answer to what you believe it can do. 
 

“You can only train your body so much, right? Different than a wide receiver, or a defensive back, my body was fine for the force that it would take from itself. If I were to run up and jump on my leg, I felt comfortable that my knee was healthy enough to sustain that. But in the trenches, I’ve got to play a double team from two people weighing 330 pounds and me planting on my leg, there was so much more force than I could ever replicate through training. That’s why it’s a little bit different for linemen coming back versus a skill position. There’s just so much more force when you calculate it and think about it.”


 

Quote

In the face of adversity – an ACL tear, a temporary fall down the depth chart, and a brutal postseason loss – Phillips has not only battled back to full health, but he’s also evolved into a leader, a role model who sets the standard for his teammates on and off the field.

 

For Phillips, it’s all part of the job.

“There [are] two types of leadership,” Phillips said. “One is the positional leadership, and that’s like, your middle linebacker is going to be a leader, your starting quarterback is going to be a leader, and your 10-year vet is going to be a leader, because of the positon they’re in. Then there’s personal leadership, and that’s the leadership that you get, gain respect, when players walk by after practice, and they see Tre’Davious White doing extra reps, and doing his extra work. He gets a little bit of leadership for that. 

 

“In the same aspect, now that I’ve been here for three years, going on four years, those players who see the way that I am as a player, how serious I take my craft, the way that I am in the film room, staying late, first car there in the morning, last car to leave, those types of things, built up a lot of personal power, as well. As we really build this thing to reach the goals that are out in front of us of not only getting to the game that we got to last year, but making it to the next one, everyone has to step up and lead in some capacity.”

 

 

This was a good read.

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On 5/31/2021 at 9:28 AM, BADOLBILZ said:

Phillips is a 1 tech DT.    He isn't a true NT........but the Bills don't play an odd front and Star isn't a NT-capable player either.   Even when strategically positioned  as a 1 tech to FORCE double teams Star was still often single blocked.   Neither are truly massive.   What was nice about Phillips pre-injury was that he was getting off blocks and making tackles........a trait that Star lacks and many fans just assume that is by design because they think he has the limited responsibilities of a NT.  

 

I acknowledge I don't watch a lot of college football, but I thought Phillips lined up over center a fair bit in college.  To the guy you were responding to, I don't think there was any "coach needed someone to sub for Star. Harrison was the guy who stood out the most as a viable replacement when Star needed to rest".  Rotation on the DL has always been a key aspect of how McD wants the DL to function.  I think they drafted Phillips intending him to play 1T and rotate with Star.   They may have had other players (like Peko) that they wanted to develop there who didn't pan out.  

I believe the Bills actually lined Harry up over center at times this past season.  Pretty sure I saw a piece by ?maybe Cover1 ?maybe on Buffalo Rumblings? breaking this down - I'll have a look for it.  What I saw when I was trying to figure out who was playing where on the Bills DL last year is that the Bills were lining guys up all the heck over.  I didn't get too far - it was very tough to breakdown.

 

Interestingly I seem to recall - and I could be wrong here - that when the Bills were running a 3-4 D with Kyle Williams at the nose tackle position (with some success) someone observed they were actually not lining him up as a nose tackle but more as a 3T - not to cast doubt on your explanation of 1TDT vs nose tackle but to make the point that there's nuance even how even a position like nose tackle is actually played.

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On 5/31/2021 at 5:23 AM, Not at the table Karlos said:

Watching some of his college games. He played a lot of nose. Straight up on the center. Also reading some scouting reports, all say much better run defender than pass rusher, one even said "not a pro pass rusher".  A lot of his sacks were effort or coverage sacks. All four reports I read said he struggles at taking on double teams with his size, said he's a single block run defender. 

 

He's playing 1-tech because that's the closest fit for his skill set. Everyone compared him to Kyle Williams coming out and everyone thought he was gonna be this great interior pass rusher but anyone that watched him said he's the opposite of Kyle. Better against run vs pass. I'd he can improve vs double teams he will be fine at 1-tech. 

 

I don't watch a lot of college football (it's mostly on cable these days and we don't have cable).  But that matches what I recall seeing and reading.

 

On 5/27/2021 at 12:28 PM, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Joe Marino refers to him as "just a guy" and "below-average depth."

 

How does Joe Marino distinguish himself in his Bills coverage from being "just a guy" and "below average depth"?

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7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I acknowledge I don't watch a lot of college football, but I thought Phillips lined up over center a fair bit in college.  To the guy you were responding to, I don't think there was any "coach needed someone to sub for Star. Harrison was the guy who stood out the most as a viable replacement when Star needed to rest".  Rotation on the DL has always been a key aspect of how McD wants the DL to function.  I think they drafted Phillips intending him to play 1T and rotate with Star.   They may have had other players (like Peko) that they wanted to develop there who didn't pan out.  

I believe the Bills actually lined Harry up over center at times this past season.  Pretty sure I saw a piece by ?maybe Cover1 ?maybe on Buffalo Rumblings? breaking this down - I'll have a look for it.  What I saw when I was trying to figure out who was playing where on the Bills DL last year is that the Bills were lining guys up all the heck over.  I didn't get too far - it was very tough to breakdown.

 

Interestingly I seem to recall - and I could be wrong here - that when the Bills were running a 3-4 D with Kyle Williams at the nose tackle position (with some success) someone observed they were actually not lining him up as a nose tackle but more as a 3T - not to cast doubt on your explanation of 1TDT vs nose tackle but to make the point that there's nuance even how even a position like nose tackle is actually played.

 

 

Phillips did line up at NT some at Stanford but the function of a NT is usually to draw a double and if not to push the center back into the QB.    Phillips was always working to get off blocks.    He was really quite dominant at Stanford.   His last season he had almost 100 tackles.   A guy who can anchor and also make those plays fills the bill.   And a third round pick on that type of player is definitely a sign that you see that guy as a very good starter down the line, IMO.    Playmaking NT's like Damon Harrison are rare........I never saw Phillips as capable of being an NFL NT.

 

The 1 tech is literally positioned to be a 1 gap player.   He doesn't have run responsibility on both sides(2 gap) like a single blocked NT would so when he is single blocked he needs to fill that gap and get in the backfield.    Dareus was great at the job.....All Pro under Schwartz and was doing excellent work for McDermott.   If you singled him he would blow thru the center/guard gap and blow up the play......if you doubled him he could anchor and still actually get off a block and impact the run game.    Cover 1 also had some good stuff on Dareus as a 1 tech for McD early in the 2017 season.     

 

As for KW.........he was horrendous as a NT.    Edwards might have tilted him to 1 or 2 tech at times but he just wasn't physically capable of absorbing doubles and he would get pushed one way or another and once out of position he would then just revert to shooting gaps rather than do nothing.    Sometimes he would make a tackle but most of the time he left huge gaping holes.      That whole transition to the 3-4 was ridiculous after years of Jauron drafting to stock a Tampa-2 system.    They didn't have a body who could play NT or even 1 tech well.        

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1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

How does Joe Marino distinguish himself in his Bills coverage from being "just a guy" and "below average depth"?

What evidence do we have that he's wrong about Phillips?

 

Par for the course to take shots at anyone who has honest criticism of a Bills player.

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3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

As for KW.........he was horrendous as a NT.    Edwards might have tilted him to 1 or 2 tech at times but he just wasn't physically capable of absorbing doubles and he would get pushed one way or another and once out of position he would then just revert to shooting gaps rather than do nothing.    Sometimes he would make a tackle but most of the time he left huge gaping holes.      That whole transition to the 3-4 was ridiculous after years of Jauron drafting to stock a Tampa-2 system.    They didn't have a body who could play NT or even 1 tech well.        

 

I completely agree with you that the transition to 3-4 was stupid but that's kind of an aside.    Transitioning to different defenses no question held the Bills back from any improvement.  Continuity matters (as long as those you continue aren't *****ups...) but I digress.

 

It's worth noticing that Williams went to his first probowl - unusual recognition for a player on a 4-12 team - in 2010, playing nose tackle under George Edwards.  I believe that predates all-22 availability - certainly predates my subscription to same... but I have memories of reading a breakdown by Brian Galliford at Buffalo Rumblings I think, on how he was being used, which was actually not as a conventional nose tackle IIRC...but there it stands, he was listed as a NT and he went to the pro-bowl that year.

 

2 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

What evidence do we have that he's wrong about Phillips?

 

Par for the course to take shots at anyone who has honest criticism of a Bills player.

 

What evidence do we have that he's right?  And what does his "honest criticism" consist of? 

 

I'm kind of "done" with the notion that anyone can contend anything and it is somehow "up to" the rest of us to prove them wrong. 

 

If you feel Marino has honest criticism, fair enough - how about YOU lay out his arguments and maybe a link or something?

 

As far as I'm concerned if he wants to sling crap (via you) calling Harry ""just a guy" and "below average depth" without the above, it's "open season" to sling crap right back.

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