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Harrison Phillips- Can he become what he was drafted for?


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2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

What evidence do we have that he's right?  And what does his "honest criticism" consist of? 

 

I'm kind of "done" with the notion that anyone can contend anything and it is somehow "up to" the rest of us to prove them wrong. 

 

If you feel Marino has honest criticism, fair enough - how about YOU lay out his arguments and maybe a link or something?

 

As far as I'm concerned if he wants to sling crap (via you) calling Harry ""just a guy" and "below average depth" without the above, it's "open season" to sling crap right back.

I don’t see what’s wrong with his post.  Many people here know who Joe Marino is. I listen to most of his podcasts.  I respect his opinion more than most people on the site.  I didn’t see that Marino said that about Philips and I’m thankful that he posted the info.  All he @Giuseppe Tognarellidid was mention what Joe said about him.  Does he really have to dig up stats and do research that backs up his post, just to state what an analyst, that most informed Bills fans know, said about Phillips?  Not every post has to be a 10K word thesis to prove a point does it?  
 

Based on his play last season, marino’s take is spot on imo.  The guy was benched for 4 games last season because he was invisible and wasn’t doing his job.  I was told that McD thinks Edmunds is great because we picked up his 5th year option.  What does it mean when McD benches a player for 4 games?  Sounds like below average depth to me. 
 

maybe he improves this year and proves Marino wrong.....but based on last years play, I agree with his take 💯.  He played well in a handful of games towards the end of the season, let’s hope he continues to improve.  
 

 

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Theres no doubt Harrison had a monster year in 2012.  Not only was he a dominant pass rusher and run stuffer but he also was the team's starting running back, backup QB, and lined up at tight end.  If

From what I recall, Harrison played his best ball later in the year after spending some time on the inactive list.  I am optimistic he will have his best season this year.

Agree that everything points to them focusing on pass rush impact over stay-at-home types like Star.   The actions ever since Star opted out have spoken loudly.   I don't think Phillips was

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4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I completely agree with you that the transition to 3-4 was stupid but that's kind of an aside.    Transitioning to different defenses no question held the Bills back from any improvement.  Continuity matters (as long as those you continue aren't *****ups...) but I digress.

 

It's worth noticing that Williams went to his first probowl - unusual recognition for a player on a 4-12 team - in 2010, playing nose tackle under George Edwards.  I believe that predates all-22 availability - certainly predates my subscription to same... but I have memories of reading a breakdown by Brian Galliford at Buffalo Rumblings I think, on how he was being used, which was actually not as a conventional nose tackle IIRC...but there it stands, he was listed as a NT and he went to the pro-bowl that year.

 

 

 

2010 was one of Williams best years statistically but when you watched the line play he was just not getting the job done.     The holes in the run game were enormous.   8 times opponents ran for 200 or more yards against that defense.   They were obviously the worst rush defense in the league.      The infamous Steelers game(Stevie Johnson and the birth of "Bills Mafia")  was the signature performance for Williams that year........he was constantly plowed out of the way in the run game and yet had a career day statistically.

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16 hours ago, NewEra said:

I don’t see what’s wrong with his post.  Many people here know who Joe Marino is.

 

The problem I have is when “just a guy” and “replacement level player” is taken on face value as “honest criticism”.

If there’s more depth to it than that, bring out the depth.  If there isn’t more depth to it, IMHO it’s just taking a dump on a guy.

 

We’ve seen plenty of similar “dumps” by folks who have some cred with some people, like PFF talking about Josh.  In 2019, they said he was “below replacement level” etc etc etc. 

 

As it happens, they were wrong, but at least in their case they backed it up with their funky stats.

 

16 hours ago, NewEra said:

 Not every post has to be a 10K word thesis to prove a point does it?

 

C’mon Man, be better.  There’s a lot of space between a 10,000 word thesis and a 6 word dump.  One could, IDK, give 3-6 sentences?

 

16 hours ago, NewEra said:

Based on his play last season, marino’s take is spot on imo.  The guy was benched for 4 games last season because he was invisible and wasn’t doing his job.  

 

There was a lot of noise in the media last season about Phillips being a healthy scratch meaning the Bills were ready to move on, he was gonna be traded etc - and yet he’s still here.  From what McDermott and Beane have said after the season, and what happened to Phillips playing time, it now appears that he was benched because he really wasn’t healed enough from his injury and was struggling.  He worked his way back into more playing time as the season progressed.  

 

I saw some pretty strong play out of Phillips at the end of last season.  And we do know that the 1T job in McD’s system is not necessarily productive of stats, yes?  Ie, the guy who is doing his job may be fairly “invisible”

 

But at least you’re providing some information about what your opinion is based on, but a bit more than “benched because still injured and needed more time” would be more persuasive.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The problem I have is when “just a guy” and “replacement level player” is taken on face value as “honest criticism”.

If there’s more depth to it than that, bring out the depth.  If there isn’t more depth to it, IMHO it’s just taking a dump on a guy.

 

We’ve seen plenty of similar “dumps” by folks who have some cred with some people, like PFF talking about Josh.  In 2019, they said he was “below replacement level” etc etc etc. 

 

As it happens, they were wrong, but at least in their case they backed it up with their funky stats.

 

 

C’mon Man, be better.  There’s a lot of space between a 10,000 word thesis and a 6 word dump.  One could, IDK, give 3-6 sentences?

 

 

There was a lot of noise in the media last season about Phillips being a healthy scratch meaning the Bills were ready to move on, he was gonna be traded etc - and yet he’s still here.  From what McDermott and Beane have said after the season, and what happened to Phillips playing time, it now appears that he was benched because he really wasn’t healed enough from his injury and was struggling.  He worked his way back into more playing time as the season progressed.  

 

I saw some pretty strong play out of Phillips at the end of last season.  And we do know that the 1T job in McD’s system is not necessarily productive of stats, yes?  Ie, the guy who is doing his job may be fairly “invisible”

 

But at least you’re providing some information about what your opinion is based on, but a bit more than “benched because still injured and needed more time” would be more persuasive.

 

 

I hear ya.  You have a different perspective as a mod and I respect that.  
 

I just saw his post as relaying info from a source many of us follow.  I hadn’t heard Joe say that about Harrison, so I’m glad that he posted it.  While he’s certainly not the Bible, I respect Marino’s opinion.  He watches a ton of tape and provides some solid analysis imo.

 

There are several 1 sentence posts in which people just drop their opinion with zero evidence to backup their opinion. 

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I am very hopeful that Harrison will be a significant contributor this year.  I thought he was coming on in 2018 and looked good pre-injury 2019.  Torn ACL in-season then tried to play - think that he could not have been near 100% early last year.

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12 hours ago, NewEra said:

There are several 1 sentence posts in which people just drop their opinion with zero evidence to backup their opinion. 

 

Of course!  And when presented as "honest criticism", IMHO it's always appropriate to "call the shot" with 'em.  This site runs on discussion, and when it's just an opinion (either way) with nothing to back it up, there's not much substrate to discuss.

 

12 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

Heard from cover 1 dudes that he was looking fit too. Saw this picture on an article. Anyone on Twitter got a better picture. He does look like he lost weight. 
 

image.thumb.jpeg.eee1d3c3a730ab260d22410ec828a4fb.jpeg

 

I thought big 'n fat was a desireable trait in a DT?

image.thumb.png.088497b0d83eb05851a19bdf3ea1114e.png

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8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Of course!  And when presented as "honest criticism", IMHO it's always appropriate to "call the shot" with 'em.  This site runs on discussion, and when it's just an opinion (either way) with nothing to back it up, there's not much substrate to discuss.

 

 

I thought big 'n fat was a desireable trait in a DT?

image.thumb.png.088497b0d83eb05851a19bdf3ea1114e.png

I thought so too but he looks super fit now.  Bit of a butter ball previously.  Thats a solid 312 (not sure exactly where cover 1 got this weight from) hes got going on right now.  

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On 5/27/2021 at 12:20 AM, NewEra said:

Sadly, I think he’s our best 1T.  He’s not on the bubble imo.  Star won’t be playing and even if he does, the atrophy will likely set him back even more imo.  

 

 

Nonsense.

 

Star will almost certainly be playing, barring injury of course. Most likely Harry will be competing with Star to be the #1 1-tech. When healthy his first year, Harry was pretty close, quicker, a better penetrator, but not quite as good at just eating space and holding blocks as Star. I'm hopeful that he can mean as much to this defense as he did to the very good 2018 group.

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2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Nonsense.

 

Star will almost certainly be playing, barring injury of course. Most likely Harry will be competing with Star to be the #1 1-tech. When healthy his first year, Harry was pretty close, quicker, a better penetrator, but not quite as good at just eating space and holding blocks as Star. I'm hopeful that he can mean as much to this defense as he did to the very good 2018 group.

Nonsense that star won’t play or get hurt?  Looks like he’ll play…..we’ll see if he gets hurt.  A big man taking a year off could take its toll. 17 games+ the playoffs.  
 

and I said Phillips was our best 1T and isn’t a candidate to get cut….. you pretty much agreed with everything that I said except “star won’t be playing”…..after which I said that if he plays, he’ll get hurt.  You also mentioned “unless he gets hurt”.  
 

either way, my bottom line:  I’m not expecting much of anything from star.  I’m expecting more from phillips than star. 

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4 hours ago, NewEra said:

Nonsense that star won’t play or get hurt?  Looks like he’ll play…..we’ll see if he gets hurt.  A big man taking a year off could take its toll. 17 games+ the playoffs.  
 

and I said Phillips was our best 1T and isn’t a candidate to get cut….. you pretty much agreed with everything that I said except “star won’t be playing”…..after which I said that if he plays, he’ll get hurt.  You also mentioned “unless he gets hurt”.  
 

either way, my bottom line:  I’m not expecting much of anything from star.  I’m expecting more from phillips than star. 

 

 

Wait, football players get hurt sometimes? Holy cow, this is a whole new fact that I'd never noticed before.

 

Of course he could get hurt. So could anyone. Any player.

 

As for what you apparently said, I answered one post. And that's the only one I read. And no, you didn't say that. If you had, I'd have responded differently.

 

It's fine you're not expecting much from him. But that says more about you than about Star.

 

I'm looking forward to Star's press conference with Josh tomorrow.

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1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Wait, football players get hurt sometimes? Holy cow, this is a whole new fact that I'd never noticed before.

 

Of course he could get hurts. So could anyone. Any player.

 

As for what you apparently said, I answered one post. And that's the only one I read. And no, you didn't say that. If you had, I'd have.

 

It's fine you're  not expecting much from him. But that says more about you than about Star.

You can act like 300lb men in their 30s who don’t play for 1.5 years aren’t more prone to get injured than your average player…..but you know what I’m saying is right. Argue more.
 

what says more about me than star?  That I don’t think he’s some special 1T that will come in and save the day?  That I don’t think he’s very good?  You said that harrison is probably the better 1T…..and Harrison isn’t THAT good.  That I think that super big guys that don’t play for 1.5 years are more likely to get hurt that the average player?  Please tell me…..what does that say about me.  

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1 hour ago, NewEra said:

You can act like 300lb men in their 30s who don’t play for 1.5 years aren’t more prone to get injured than your average player…..but you know what I’m saying is right. Argue more.
 

what says more about me than star?  That I don’t think he’s some special 1T that will come in and save the day?  That I don’t think he’s very good?  You said that harrison is probably the better 1T…..and Harrison isn’t THAT good.  That I think that super big guys that don’t play for 1.5 years are more likely to get hurt that the average player?  Please tell me…..what does that say about me.  

 

 

You're not right. You're indulging your prejudices.

 

You didn't say that the odds that Star might get injured are higher than for most Bills. That's true. You said you don't expect much of him and you said ...

 

 

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

 ... after which I said that if he plays, he’ll get hurt.

 

 

Yeah, you did say that, which pretty much proves my point. That's indulging your prejudices and pretending a wild-ass guess is a likelihood. Do 300 pound football players get injured more than, say 250 pound LBs or 220 pound RBs? Where's your evidence? Yeah, guys in their 30s get injured more than younger guys, but I don't see you talking about Hughes or Hyde or Addison or Taiwan Jones.

 

And I'd love to see your evidence that guys who take a year off get injured more often. Pretty sure guys like Harrison Phillips would love to see that evidence too.

 

What says more about you than Star? What you said. That you think following your biases rather than the probabilities will get you closer to a better guess. Generally it will not.

 

And here's an idea. You seem to be a poor summarizer, so if you want to respond to something I said, why don't you quote me? That way we won't have to go through the whole, "Um, no I did not say that," thing again and again.

 

For example, you said, "You said that harrison is probably the better 1T…..and Harrison isn’t THAT good." Yeah, um, no, I did not say that. Can you show me where I said that Harrison is probably the better 1T? Can you show me where I said Harrison isn't that good"? No, you can't, those are poor paraphrases. I didn't say those things. Nor would I, as I am not convinced of either one.

 

 

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On 5/31/2021 at 11:28 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Agree that everything points to them focusing on pass rush impact over stay-at-home types like Star.   The actions ever since Star opted out have spoken loudly.

 

 ...

 

Phillips is a 1 tech DT.    He isn't a true NT........but the Bills don't play an odd front and Star isn't a NT-capable player either.   Even when strategically positioned  as a 1 tech to FORCE double teams Star was still often single blocked.   Neither are truly massive.   What was nice about Phillips pre-injury was that he was getting off blocks and making tackles........a trait that Star lacks and many fans just assume that is by design because they think he has the limited responsibilities of a NT.  

 

 

Their actions have indeed spoken loudly.

 

But there is no particular reason to think your interpretation of what they're saying is correct. None. There are many alternate explanations that explain what happened just as well or better.

 

For instance, there's no reason to think they're focusing  on pass rush impact over stay-at-home types like Star (at DT). I mean, they are at DE, of course, but beyond that there's no evidence that they're looking to phase out a big space-eater type, particularly on early downs. They brought in a guy last year who could do play both DT and DE, to possibly try to ramp up the pass rush on passing downs. That was Quinton Jefferson, and that didn't work out, precisely because Lotulelei opted out and they had to try to use small guys to fill big guy spots and it didn't work out all that well.

 

Then after the season they very publicly pointed out that the DL was too small (without Lotulelei and with a hampered Harry). They're not going to say, "We were too small," and try to get smaller.

 

Now - on passing downs - do they seem like they might bring Basham or Rousseau in to play DT for occasionally? Sure. But they were planning to do that last year with Jefferson, even before Star opted out.

 

There's no reason whatsoever to think they don't want a big ol' space eater at 1-tech in running situations and early downs.

 

And it's true that sometimes Star was single-blocked. But not that often on runs through the middle. He was generally doubled in that situation.

 

Yeah, it would be ideal if Star could get off blocks and make tackles. But having a space eater who doesn't need to make tackles really is in fact the McDermott design with Star as their 1-tech. You can say some things about McDermott, but you can't say he's a dummy. He brought in Star. Star had played on his team at Carolina. McDermott knew what he was and brought him in. They didn't think Lotulelei would suddenly in the cold Buffalo winds become a guy who could magically and unexplainably get off blocks he'd never gotten off of before. They brought him in knowing what he was because he fit the plan. It really does appear to be that simple.

 

 

 

 

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On 6/1/2021 at 5:30 AM, 3rdand12 said:

Its possible Star was bought on as more of a very smart Vet who could bring the young horses into their own ?
and  1 tech was less important .
 I have seen him switch coverage via Edmunds on occasion plays !
 But the truth might be they have already moved on from him , and , that type of player.
 

I honestly expected them to draft a sincere 1tech fat kid who could hold his own against the run up the middle.
 But they did not. and that puts a nail in it. McDermott's  D Line Coaching /drafting theories.
 

 guys like Oliver and Phillips up front are the vision perhaps ?
 

 

 

Oliver is a 3-tech, and yeah, I'm sure he's the vision there.

 

But it seems likely that the reason they didn't bring in another big space-eater is two-fold.

 

1)  They are happier with Star than many fans are, and

 

2)  They draft BPA factoring in positions of need a bit, but not enough to ever reach, and maybe they simply didn't find a good non-reach situation to draft a big guy this year. Wouldn't be surprised to see them thinking about it next year as Star's contract approaches its end.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Their actions have indeed spoken loudly.

 

But there is no particular reason to think your interpretation of what they're saying is correct. None. There are many alternate explanations that explain what happened just as well or better.

 

For instance, there's no reason to think they're focusing  on pass rush impact over stay-at-home types like Star (at DT). I mean, they are at DE, of course, but beyond that there's no evidence that they're looking to phase out a big space-eater type, particularly on early downs. They brought in a guy last year who could do play both DT and DE, to possibly try to ramp up the pass rush on passing downs. That was Quinton Jefferson, and that didn't work out, precisely because Lotulelei opted out and they had to try to use small guys to fill big guy spots and it didn't work out all that well.

 

Then after the season they very publicly pointed out that the DL was too small (without Lotulelei and with a hampered Harry). They're not going to say, "We were too small," and try to get smaller.

 

Now - on passing downs - do they seem like they might bring Basham or Rousseau in to play DT for occasionally? Sure. But they were planning to do that last year with Jefferson, even before Star opted out.

 

There's no reason whatsoever to think they don't want a big ol' space eater at 1-tech in running situations and early downs.

 

And it's true that sometimes Star was single-blocked. But not that often on runs through the middle. He was generally doubled in that situation.

 

Yeah, it would be ideal if Star could get off blocks and make tackles. But having a space eater who doesn't need to make tackles really is in fact the McDermott design with Star as their 1-tech. You can say some things about McDermott, but you can't say he's a dummy. He brought in Star. Star had played on his team at Carolina. McDermott knew what he was and brought him in. They didn't think Lotulelei would suddenly in the cold Buffalo winds become a guy who could magically and unexplainably get off blocks he'd never gotten off of before. They brought him in knowing what he was because he fit the plan. It really does appear to be that simple.

 

 

 

 

 

 

After they lost to the Chiefs they said they needed to get bigger,  were lacking at the TE position and needed more team speed.

 

The only one of those weaknesses they even addressed with a blue chip pick or above minimum FA deal was getting bigger at the LOS.

 

Basham is much bigger DE than a Jerry Hughes and more stout than Daryl Johnson........he is a Shaq-type build that they now can use on early downs and *hopefully* not sacrifice much in pass rush.    And Rousseau and Obada are giant sized DE's.

 

What they haven't addressed even once since Star opted out is a non-pass rush capable 1 tech type like Lotulelei.

 

So yes there is plenty of evidence that they aren't putting much stock into the position.    There have been plenty of big bodies available but they have rarely even tried any out let alone signed one to the PS or otherwise.

 

 

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