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35 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't want to argue "more athletic and stronger" at this point (don't bet the rent money Lamp against Boettger though) but keep in mind that after playing 16 games at LG, the Chargers let him walk and he wound up signing a contract for vet minimum with very little guaranteed, one month into FA. 

 

Ask yourself why is that, if he's more athletic and stronger than any of the guys he's competing with on a decidedly average interior OL and such a great pass blocker?

 

 

That's your opinion, but whether it's Bobby Johnson's opinion or Brandon Beane's opinion is TBD.  I don't think they agree with you - though the reason they brought him in is that every season is a new year and they're hedging their bets in case their expectations for Ford and Feliciano are not fulfilled.

 

BTW what's Lamp's history playing elsewhere than LG?

 

 

I agree with you that the Bills will not let $$ stop them from making playing or roster decisions based on skill.  So it's inconsequential to the discussion of who is the best during the season, but it probably reflects the team's current perception of value going into the season, wouldn't you agree?

 

Agree that is my hope.  I have to say that his run blocking last year was not good, but perhaps he was fighting through hampering injuries.

In which case his injury history is a concern.

 

 

Disagree.  When used in the run game according to his skill set, Morse is an excellent run blocker.

 

 

I love me some Mongo, but No on both points.  I thought he showed better in 2019 than this past season, so perhaps injuries hampered him, but he's not a better center than Morse and some of his blocking (both pass and run) last season was best described as "porous".  Some of his shotgun snaps left me saying "it's a good thing our QB is 6'5" with long arms"

 

People don't realize that Feliciano staying an extra game at C once Morse returned may have had as much to do with Feliciano as with Morse once Ford went out for the season (he's said that C was easier for him to play than G with the injury)

Good respectful takes by all- Go Bills 😊

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Darryl Williams' starting spot is quite safe. But Brown is a nice prospect.    The guard spots should see a nice battle. I like Lamp. (I love Lamp?)

My understanding is that Brown has a ways to go in his development, so I think we're looking at a move like this in 2022 at the earliest 

He is a starting level player but he is upgradeable. The problem (to the extent there is one) with the interior is not Feliciano, as much as I think Bills fans tend to overrate him. You can't have hig

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't want to argue "more athletic and stronger" at this point (don't bet the rent money Lamp against Boettger though) but keep in mind that after playing 16 games at LG, the Chargers let him walk and he wound up signing a contract for vet minimum with very little guaranteed, one month into FA. 

 

Ask yourself why is that, if he's more athletic and stronger than any of the guys he's competing with on a decidedly average interior OL and such a great pass blocker?

 

 

That's your opinion, but whether it's Bobby Johnson's opinion or Brandon Beane's opinion is TBD.  I don't think they agree with you - though the reason they brought him in is that every season is a new year and they're hedging their bets in case their expectations for Ford and Feliciano are not fulfilled.

 

BTW what's Lamp's history playing elsewhere than LG?

 

 

I agree with you that the Bills will not let $$ stop them from making playing or roster decisions based on skill.  So it's inconsequential to the discussion of who is the best during the season, but it probably reflects the team's current perception of value going into the season, wouldn't you agree?

 

 

Good takes and makes sense. And all of that is my opinion. I consider myself somewhat of an Online guru. Been a varsity coach 13 years and it's what I study, but that doesn't make me an expert. Definitely my opinion based on what I see. Lamp was drafted right after they picked Zay Jones, so I wonder if he was high on our board. No way of knowing that, but I think it is just a case of adding a guy with a lot of upside for competitive purposes. I also like Ryan Bates more than most and I am not a Feliciano fan. To me he's more bark than bite. You can't be rah rah lets run the football and then complete whiff and blow blocks. Now if we can transfer his attitude and effort onto one of these more "talented" guys, you have the makings of a special player. 

 

I agree with @GunnerBill in that Morse has really underachieved as has Ford. Those are major issues to me as well. If you cut Morse and plugged Bates in at center, I don't think there would be a much, if any, drop off in play. Myae some issues with communication, which is where Morse excels. Ford is still raw and very young, but he's been a huge disappointment.

 

On Lamp, I actually think he project to be a very good center. He was a college left tackle and has played both left and right guard in the pros.  

 

 

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13 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Good takes and makes sense. And all of that is my opinion. I consider myself somewhat of an Online guru. Been a varsity coach 13 years and it's what I study, but that doesn't make me an expert. Definitely my opinion based on what I see. Lamp was drafted right after they picked Zay Jones, so I wonder if he was high on our board. No way of knowing that, but I think it is just a case of adding a guy with a lot of upside for competitive purposes. I also like Ryan Bates more than most and I am not a Feliciano fan. To me he's more bark than bite. You can't be rah rah lets run the football and then complete whiff and blow blocks. Now if we can transfer his attitude and effort onto one of these more "talented" guys, you have the makings of a special player. 

 

I agree with @GunnerBill in that Morse has really underachieved as has Ford. Those are major issues to me as well. If you cut Morse and plugged Bates in at center, I don't think there would be a much, if any, drop off in play. Myae some issues with communication, which is where Morse excels. Ford is still raw and very young, but he's been a huge disappointment.

 

On Lamp, I actually think he project to be a very good center. He was a college left tackle and has played both left and right guard in the pros.  

 

 

 

I also start from the maybe biased perspective of having really liked Lamp in his draft but I agree with much of this. I think in terms of potential talent upgrade from our 2020 line to 2021 Lamp hitting is really the only route I see. 

 

I do agree on Feliciano as well. As much as I think he isn't the biggest problem (if your smallest resource investment in the oline plays at a Feliciano level I think you are not in a bad place) I agree fans love his attitude and that blinds them at times to some of his play. 

 

I agree less on Bates. I guess I class myself as a Bates sceptic. I just don't love what I see on the field from him despite him getting a fair amount of buzz since he has been here. His display at tackle (which I accept is not his best spot) in the 2019 week 17 game made Jordan Mills look like Orlando Pace. 

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20 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Good takes and makes sense. And all of that is my opinion. I consider myself somewhat of an Online guru. Been a varsity coach 13 years and it's what I study, but that doesn't make me an expert. Definitely my opinion based on what I see. Lamp was drafted right after they picked Zay Jones, so I wonder if he was high on our board. No way of knowing that, but I think it is just a case of adding a guy with a lot of upside for competitive purposes. I also like Ryan Bates more than most and I am not a Feliciano fan. To me he's more bark than bite. You can't be rah rah lets run the football and then complete whiff and blow blocks. Now if we can transfer his attitude and effort onto one of these more "talented" guys, you have the makings of a special player. 

 

I agree with @GunnerBill in that Morse has really underachieved as has Ford. Those are major issues to me as well. If you cut Morse and plugged Bates in at center, I don't think there would be a much, if any, drop off in play. Myae some issues with communication, which is where Morse excels. Ford is still raw and very young, but he's been a huge disappointment.

 

On Lamp, I actually think he project to be a very good center. He was a college left tackle and has played both left and right guard in the pros. 

 

Good response.  I'm not an OL guru but it's an area I pay a lot of attention to.  While I have your attention tell me what you know about Jamil Douglas?

 

I don't know if Lamp was high on the Bills board, but given they fired Whaley and all the scouts right after the draft, I'm not sure how much difference it makes?  I think he has talent and in fact he's part of the case I made for why Beane has done more with the OL than people think, in a different thread.  I'll be capitol-letters LAMP and link it:

 

Feliciano certainly whiffed and blew blocks in the run game last season, no argument there.  Whiffed and blew blocks in the passing game too.  What neither of us know is how much the Bills personnel assessment is of the role injuries played.  Same with Ford, although with him, when Beane says "he's played more games injured than healthy" as sort of an explanation for his disappointing performance, one thing I hear is "so can he stay healthy?"

 

I feel both Feliciano and Ford have the "benefit of the doubt" but I also feel that Beane is planning to have a healthy amount of competition at the guard position and the message has been thrown down 'get 'er done or sit down'

 

 

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20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I agree less on Bates. I guess I class myself as a Bates sceptic. I just don't love what I see on the field from him despite him getting a fair amount of buzz since he has been here. His display at tackle (which I accept is not his best spot) in the 2019 week 17 game made Jordan Mills look like Orlando Pace. 

 

Oh well hey now.  That was Then, this is Now.  Guys are allowed to improve.

 

I understand being a Bates skeptic, but I don't see how you can critique the drive where he played center against NE.  He did well.  IMHO the major reason Feliciano moved over to C was that as soon as Morse went out, Feliciano went from "snap count" to "whole game" and center was easier on him, Bates did that well. 

 

In 2019, he was a raw rookie seeing the field on offense for the first time at LT (2nd time ever he took significant snaps) with a pretty ineffective QB behind him.  How about this year vs. Seattle or Miami?  Did you notice?   vs Seattle, the announcers were all "oh, the Bills are playing with 3 backup OLmen" at one point, as we were perambulating the football down the field, so they actually didn't.  That's a good thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh well hey now.  That was Then, this is Now.  Guys are allowed to improve.

 

I understand being a Bates skeptic, but I don't see how you can critique the drive where he played center against NE.  He did well.  IMHO the major reason Feliciano moved over to C was that as soon as Morse went out, Feliciano went from "snap count" to "whole game" and center was easier on him, Bates did that well. 

 

In 2019, he was a raw rookie seeing the field on offense for the first time at LT (2nd time ever he took significant snaps) with a pretty ineffective QB behind him.  How about this year vs. Seattle or Miami?  Did you notice?   vs Seattle, the announcers were all "oh, the Bills are playing with 3 backup OLmen" at one point, as we were perambulating the football down the field, so they actually didn't.  That's a good thing.

 

 

He looked a bit better in limited snaps this year. He actually did really well when they bring him in for extra blocker situations. But his play on the field still hasn't justified him being more than a guy who has to justify his place on the roster in camp and pre-season to me. Don't get me wrong I think he makes the 53. But he is not a lock.

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On 5/4/2021 at 10:11 AM, Ya Digg? said:

I'm with you on this.  I keep reading that Feliciano is our nastiest lineman and we need that nastiness.  While that could be true (but VERY debatable) there's also a reason why he was cheap.  I would rather have him as a backup and a spot starter - he's not good enough to be a full time starter.  There were several times last year where he was completely knocked on his butt and the play was blown up because of that.  Don't get me wrong, I think he should be on the team, but I don't like him as a starter.  Nasty and mean and tough (and whatever other superlatives people are throwing at him) are fine, but I would rather have someone in there who is good

 

If you look at games from 2019, I think there was a lot less of Feliciano getting dumped on his butt or beaten.  So it's just possible that being able to train in the off-season vs. recovering from surgery, and being able to be at full strength vs recovering from a torn pec, makes a difference

 

3 hours ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said:

I think if Cody Ford, does not workout at left guard I would like to see if he could play center because he has the nastiness and pull on traps and screens so if the bills are looking for a backup center try Cody there.

 

You know, at some point when a guy doesn't succeed at one position, you gotta stop seeing where maybe he'd work out better and just move the ***** on.

 

Don't get me wrong, I hope Ford works out at guard.  But he's had his shot at RT and he's gonna get his shot at Guard and do we really want to stake The Franchise on passing him off to Center?

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13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You know, at some point when a guy doesn't succeed at one position, you gotta stop seeing where maybe he'd work out better and just move the ***** on.

 

Don't get me wrong, I hope Ford works out at guard.  But he's had his shot at RT and he's gonna get his shot at Guard and do we really want to stake The Franchise on passing him off to Center?

 

If Ford doesn't nail the LG job this year my guess is he is not on the team next year. In that scenario I can imagine the Bills trading him for a future 6th or 7th round pick after the season. 

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Posted (edited)

Williams isn't going to be the swing tackle and Brown won't be a 1st year starter. If Ford continues to struggle at LG, I could see us going with Williams at LG and Brown at RT in 2022 maybe. Then again, one of the day 3 OL or UDFA OL could surprise us. I heard that Doyle (or was it Anderson?) was an excellent technician. I'd give a rookie OL who is very good with his technique a good chance to make the roster. Getting stronger is easier to do, but some guys never develop great footwork or handwork. Brown is a solid athlete, so if he just needs to work on his conditioning to get NFL ready, I see a bright future there.

 

I know Morse has not performed as expected, but he's still the best IOL on the roster by far. Perhaps those concussions are a problem. If that's the case, it might be better for him to retire before he ends up like Jim McMahon.

 

I really don't understand why people think Bates and Boettger are the answer though. I don't even know if they'll even make the final roster.

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1 hour ago, GreggTX said:

Williams isn't going to be the swing tackle and Brown won't be a 1st year starter. If Ford continues to struggle at LG, I could see us going with Williams at LG and Brown at RT in 2022 maybe. Then again, one of the day 3 OL or UDFA OL could surprise us. I heard that Doyle (or was it Anderson?) was an excellent technician. I'd give a rookie OL who is very good with his technique a good chance to make the roster. Getting stronger is easier to do, but some guys never develop great footwork or handwork. Brown is a solid athlete, so if he just needs to work on his conditioning to get NFL ready, I see a bright future there.

 

I know Morse has not performed as expected, but he's still the best IOL on the roster by far. Perhaps those concussions are a problem. If that's the case, it might be better for him to retire before he ends up like Jim McMahon.

 

I really don't understand why people think Bates and Boettger are the answer though. I don't even know if they'll even make the final roster.

If Ford continues to struggle, I don't see the Bills sticking with him the entire season.  They'll bench him for somebody else.  I think he starts training camp as the starter at LG but not convinced he will win the job.  Pretty good competition imo.

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On 5/2/2021 at 10:20 AM, TheBrownBear said:

I like Lamp too.  We are actually in great shape on both sides of the trenches.  I love how Beane has built this roster. 

 

Only thing missing in my eyes is a top-tier CB2 to pair with White.  Hopefully, that gets addressed in the 2022 draft 

If the pass rush improves the secondary will improve. Frazier and McD will also develop the younger secondary players. 

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32 minutes ago, DCbillsfan said:

If Ford continues to struggle, I don't see the Bills sticking with him the entire season.  They'll bench him for somebody else.  I think he starts training camp as the starter at LG but not convinced he will win the job.  Pretty good competition imo.

 

I think (maybe it's hope) that the Bills have learnt their lesson that preseason doesn't always translate to regular season.  Unless he gets injured or flat-out gets outplayed, I think Ford gets a chance at LG in the first 2 games of the season.  Then, like Spain, if they're not seeing what they want from him he gets pulled.

 

When the Bills penciled Nate Peterman in as the clear starter with no alternatives than Mr Project Rookie, I had a bad case of "OhShitHereweGoAgain" on the coaching staff and FO.  They've redeemed themselves, but part of me is always a bit scared of a relapse.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think (maybe it's hope) that the Bills have learnt their lesson that preseason doesn't always translate to regular season.  Unless he gets injured or flat-out gets outplayed, I think Ford gets a chance at LG in the first 2 games of the season.  Then, like Spain, if they're not seeing what they want from him he gets pulled.

 

When the Bills penciled Nate Peterman in as the clear starter with no alternatives than Mr Project Rookie, I had a bad case of "OhShitHereweGoAgain" on the coaching staff and FO.  They've redeemed themselves, but part of me is always a bit scared of a relapse.

 

 

I agree.  The good news is I believe the Bills have good guard depth and I tend to think Ford is on a relatively short leash.  I don't think we will have a Peterman flashback.

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1 hour ago, GreggTX said:

Williams isn't going to be the swing tackle and Brown won't be a 1st year starter. If Ford continues to struggle at LG, I could see us going with Williams at LG and Brown at RT in 2022 maybe. Then again, one of the day 3 OL or UDFA OL could surprise us. I heard that Doyle (or was it Anderson?) was an excellent technician. I'd give a rookie OL who is very good with his technique a good chance to make the roster. Getting stronger is easier to do, but some guys never develop great footwork or handwork. Brown is a solid athlete, so if he just needs to work on his conditioning to get NFL ready, I see a bright future there.

 

Not that he's the Word, but I do continually look back at Lance Zierlein's draft profiles and say "yepyep that's what we see"

Tommy Doyle:

Quote

Gritty, try-hard blocker with starting experience at both tackle spots. Doyle will absolutely get after it and has instinctive hands and feet. While he does a nice job of working with technique in the early stages of his run blocking, defenders have some success at avoiding sustained blocks and getting in on plays nearby. He plays in a constant state of forward bend and gets caught losing composure at the top of the rush when he's not in position. The good news is that he's above average with his scramble and recovery, finding ways to get the job done even when it doesn't look pretty. He's more dirt dog than dancing bear and could be best-suited in a man-blocking scheme as a swing tackle.

Quote

Weaknesses

* Needs to eliminate some of his waist-bending and forward lean * Pad level runs a little too high. * Excessive wasted motion getting out of stance and into pull blocks. (...)* Lacks fluidity working from block to block. * Defenders work away from his attempts to sustain the block. * Ineffective length in pass sets. * Hands need to be thrown quicker and further inside. * Breakdown in composure at the top of the rush. * Below-average body control in pass sets

Jack Anderson:

Quote

Guard prospect with good size and foot quickness. He has toughness in his field demeanor, too. Anderson's two biggest issues are his core strength and his lack of control. He needs to stay within himself and attack with a more workman-like attitude rather than rushing. He has a tendency to over-step his lateral blocks and open the back door for quick losses, but he also has lateral reactive athleticism that should benefit him if bad habits are coached out of him. His hand placement and hand strength improve his chances as a base blocker but true two-gappers have a tendency to gain control and put him in a position to hang on through shed phase. He's a backup-caliber guard who could see time as a low-end starter at some point.

Quote

Weaknesses (edited) *Play can get wild and out of control.*Run-blocking footwork is random at times. *Wide first step will get him in trouble in run game.*Hard charging on the move and needs better body control.*Has tendency to lunge into his punch.* Lack of core power leaves him fighting to hang on.

 

Apologies for not also capturing their strengths, can't paste in the whole thing.  I translate both of those profiles as "needs to work on technique" but also for Anderson "needs an off season in an NFL level S&C program to build up his core".

 

1 hour ago, GreggTX said:

I know Morse has not performed as expected, but he's still the best IOL on the roster by far. Perhaps those concussions are a problem. If that's the case, it might be better for him to retire before he ends up like Jim McMahon.

 

I really don't understand why people think Bates and Boettger are the answer though. I don't even know if they'll even make the final roster.

 

I don't think Bates is the answer at Center.  He's #3 on the depth chart there right now.  Beane said some really good things about Boettger - I think they like him, but he still needs to take a step.  He's also huge for a guard.  Perhaps more telling was Dawkins unsolicited "You say Boettger, I say Stallion".  Beane said "he was a comfort to Mitch Morse with the protections" I'm not sure what that means.

 

This is just my opinion, but I'm not sure what folks expected from Morse.  He's locked down and stabilized the center position as far as I can tell. 

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On 5/2/2021 at 3:41 PM, BubbaT said:

Ok, it's 2022. Who is our center? Thought they might draft a developmental one. 

 

Centers are discount OL in free agency. I could see a free agent at that position and using draft picks on the more expensive positions.

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On 5/2/2021 at 3:48 PM, BubbaT said:

OK. I'll hold you to it. Morse won't be on the roster (cap casualty) and they have no developmental one on the roster that I can see nor the resources after the Allen/Edmunds contracts to sign a good one in FA

Bates may be the developmental center. 

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I see that Daryl Williams (who was drafted and played for the Panthers - shocker), in 2019 also played both left and right guard positions as well as tackle.

 

Beane did pick up Anderson late in the draft, and I keep forgetting that they brought in Lamp as well to compete with Ike and Mongo. Although I do not expect their rookie tackles to get thrust into the lineup, I have to remember that they did not hesitate to play Ford early.

 

If they get some solid early contribution from their rookie T class this year there is a lot more competition and depth at the G position than I originally thought although I still think we are thin at Center.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 5/6/2021 at 3:51 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If you look at games from 2019, I think there was a lot less of Feliciano getting dumped on his butt or beaten.  So it's just possible that being able to train in the off-season vs. recovering from surgery, and being able to be at full strength vs recovering from a torn pec, makes a difference

 

 

You know, at some point when a guy doesn't succeed at one position, you gotta stop seeing where maybe he'd work out better and just move the ***** on.

 

Don't get me wrong, I hope Ford works out at guard.  But he's had his shot at RT and he's gonna get his shot at Guard and do we really want to stake The Franchise on passing him off to Center?

You never know.  Some team could take him put him at center and he becomes a pro bowler.

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Dawkins - Best lineman on the team

Ford - Last year was his 2nd season and 1st playing LG. He had no preseason games to get up to speed. He started slow but was improving when he got hurt, I think he'll do alright this year.

Morse - Good chance this will be his last season in Buffalo. Next concussion likely ends his career.

Feliciano - Serviceable RG and is also a decent backup C

Williams - Last season was probably his best yet.

 

Bates - Versatile, can play any position on the line, wants to be a C

Boettger, Lamp and Devery probably fight for two spots

Brown and Bates probably make it. Hart may make it if they want experience at backup T.

 

Doyle and Anderson likely headed for the PS

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