Source: LB Matt Milano looking for “top dollar” in FA

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

A real MLB is a MLB that doesn’t suck at playing MLB a lot of the time.  Edmunds has his moments but he’s too inconsistent and is too easily manipulated by the QB.  His play vs the chiefs in both games (he gets the benefits of the doubt for being hurt in the first game) was atrocious.  Going forward, we can’t afford to have that level of play from our MLB vs the chiefs.  He might have 2 more chances this coming season.  
 

He needs a lot of work still.  I’m shocked at how hesitant he still is after 3 years playing the position. 

 

Hahaha, I cant argue with that take. Works for me, and I absolutely agree on your assessment of his performance. But I still ask the question because some folks think we should have a Reggie Ragland/London Fletcher/Zach Thomas type.

 

 

[NewEra]

32 minutes ago, appoo said:

 

It wasn't atrocious.

 

First of all, Tre has been probably the best Bills defender for the 2nd half of the season, including playoffs, up till the Chiefs.

 

Second of all, he was fine in run support.

 

Finally, the only reason he looked "bad" was because of possibly the greatest TE in the history of the game, playing with one of the greatest QBs, to ever take a snap, supported by elite speed at WR, and a legit running game, and not having any real pass rush.

 

Criticizing him for looking "bad" against Kelce in that particular offense with that particular set of offensive coaching, is like blaming me for looking bad in a game of chess, against Bobby freakin Fischer.  The opponent matters.

 

There's not a linebacker in the NFL who's going to look good, when the Chiefs offense, and specifically Travis Kelce, are cooking.

He was atrocious vs the chiefs in the AFCCG imo.  Agree to disagree.

 

First point- I disagree.  I feel Tre’Davious was our best player the 2nd half of the year.  Agree to disagree

 

2nd point-  I never said he was terrible in run defense

 

Last I knew Jack Doyle was a JAG.  He made Edmunds look bad too.  We were one of the worst teams defending TEs all season.  A lot of that had to do with Edmunds in coverage.  That sir, is a fact.  Think whatever you wanna think.  Our TE coverage all season sucked.....and every team doesn’t have Kelce, Hill and Mahomes

 

 

32 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

The hesitation in Edmunds just validates his instinctual deficiency. We got the kid because he was tall, fast and athletic. But if he can't read plays or holes or even the qb's eyes then what good is it. Before they throw in the towel on Tremaine they better at least try him out at OLB.

Agreed, but I think they’re gonna keep him right where he’s been.  A mistake imo 

[billsfan89]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They have to be qualifying free agents the guys they sign. And only the top however many contracts given out to FAs count (think it is 80 odd). It hurts teams who like to use the mid range free agent market. Which is the Bills. I think the mischief it was designed to solve is not exactly the same as the problem as it is now a few years on. 

 

It is very very stupid in my opinion because it effectively treats losing 5 guys for 15 million dollars in aav the same as signing 5 guys for 3 million each. I think the whole system needs to be reworked. 

[NewEra]

25 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Hahaha, I cant argue with that take. Works for me, and I absolutely agree on your assessment of his performance. But I still ask the question because some folks think we should have a Reggie Ragland/London Fletcher/Zach Thomas type.

 

 

I hear ya.  It just such an important position in McDs defense that I don’t think we can afford to have such a boom or bust player.  We need the consistency.  Mahomes made him look like a JV player and we have to go through Mahomes every year if we want a Lombardi. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by NewEra

[Process]

2 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Define "real MLB". Because it seems like folks only think of the classic, thumper MLB but that isnt what McD wants. Look at Kuechly.

Someone that can actually make a play and have a positive impact. I can't recall a single big play edmunds has made in three years. Honestly a lot of the time it's like we are playing with 10 defenders. 

 

MLB in this defense is too important to keep messing around. We need to upgrade.

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

It is very very stupid in my opinion because it effectively treats losing 5 guys for 15 million dollars in aav the same as signing 5 guys for 3 million each. I think the whole system needs to be reworked. 

 

What happened is the system was designed and teams adjusted their behaviour. I think they should update the formula but then behaviour will adjust again. It is one of those things that is hard to ever make perfect. 

[appoo]

4 minutes ago, NewEra said:

He was atrocious vs the chiefs in the AFCCG imo.  Agree to disagree.

 

First point- I disagree.  I feel Tre’Davious was our best player the 2nd half of the year.  Agree to disagree

 

2nd point-  I never said he was terrible in run defense

 

Last I knew Jack Doyle was a JAG.  He made Edmunds look bad too.  We were one of the worst teams defending TEs all season.  A lot of that had to do with Edmunds in coverage.  That sir, is a fact.  Think whatever you wanna think.  Our TE coverage all season sucked.....and every team doesn’t have Kelce, Hill and Mahomes

 

 

Agreed, but I think they’re gonna keep him right where he’s been.  A mistake imo 

Edmunds rarely gave up plays against the Colts. Most of the damage the Colts did was outside the Backers zone. So you're blaming him for something that wasn't his responsibility.

[NewEra]

4 minutes ago, appoo said:

Edmunds rarely gave up plays against the Colts. Most of the damage the Colts did was outside the Backers zone. So you're blaming him for something that wasn't his responsibility.

My bad.  He was great

[appoo]

Just now, NewEra said:

My bad.  He was great

sorry, I'm not trying to be an ahole here, just disagreeing with you. There's a lot of areas that the Bills can improve, and one of those areas is Edmunds in man coverage. Once he got healthy he was close to an elite run defender, and an above average zone coverage backer. Where he needs to get better is in man (which Kelce exploited), and getting better at rushing the passer (he really should be better than he is, considering his athletecism).

 

But in the narrative of the off-season, a large part has to do with paying either Milano or Edmunds or both - Edmunds seems to get blamed for a lot of things that either he's not responsible for, and in the case of AFCCG, wasn't out of the realm of expectations given the opponent and how well they were playing.

 

If I'm Beane & McDermott, Edmunds isn't what I'm trying to fix this off-season, and Milano @ 12-14 he'll need to stay is over resourcing Linebacker, when you should be using that money to find an elite EDGE, another EDGE and a starting 2nd corner.

[WotAGuy]

1 hour ago, appoo said:

 

 

Criticizing him for looking "bad" against Kelce in that particular offense with that particular set of offensive coaching, is like blaming me for looking bad in a game of chess, against Bobby freakin Fischer.  The opponent matters.

 

I don’t know about you, but I can beat a dead guy at chess. 

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, appoo said:

sorry, I'm not trying to be an ahole here, just disagreeing with you. There's a lot of areas that the Bills can improve, and one of those areas is Edmunds in man coverage. Once he got healthy he was close to an elite run defender, and an above average zone coverage backer. Where he needs to get better is in man (which Kelce exploited), and getting better at rushing the passer (he really should be better than he is, considering his athletecism).

 

But in the narrative of the off-season, a large part has to do with paying either Milano or Edmunds or both - Edmunds seems to get blamed for a lot of things that either he's not responsible for, and in the case of AFCCG, wasn't out of the realm of expectations given the opponent and how well they were playing.

 

If I'm Beane & McDermott, Edmunds isn't what I'm trying to fix this off-season, and Milano @ 12-14 he'll need to stay is over resourcing Linebacker, when you should be using that money to find an elite EDGE, another EDGE and a starting 2nd corner.

I don’t mean to be an jerk either, I just don’t have time to go through every example of how he’s been bad this year and didn’t want to discuss it anymore

 

I agree with the bolded 💯.  We need a top tier pass rusher.  Landing one is easier said than done.  An upgrade at CB 2 would be huge as well.  
 

Trying to upgrade DE and CB has no bearing on moving Edmunds to the outside. Even if it means having Aj Klein try and play the position this year (which I’m not a fan of the idea).  If we aren’t happy with Klein being one of our 2 LBs that plays 💯 of the game, we’re going to have to invest a pick or some $ into the position.   I just think Edmunds is better served playing outside and we should see how he does there. 

[DrDawkinstein]

12 minutes ago, appoo said:

sorry, I'm not trying to be an ahole here, just disagreeing with you. There's a lot of areas that the Bills can improve, and one of those areas is Edmunds in man coverage. Once he got healthy he was close to an elite run defender, and an above average zone coverage backer. Where he needs to get better is in man (which Kelce exploited), and getting better at rushing the passer (he really should be better than he is, considering his athletecism).

 

 

It's just opinion so I wont say this is "wrong", but I disagree big time. An elite run defender to me is a guy who stuffs a hole at the line, or even behind the line. Or when they have a clear shot at the RB in the backfield they actually make the tackle. Far too often it is Edmunds making contact 5 yards into the defense and then hanging on, or flat out missing easy tackles in the backfield and the RB goes for 10 yards.

[billsfan89]

26 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

What happened is the system was designed and teams adjusted their behaviour. I think they should update the formula but then behaviour will adjust again. It is one of those things that is hard to ever make perfect. 

 

It is hard to make perfect but there are many ways to make it better that don't include a very stupid numbers in and numbers out formula.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

47 minutes ago, appoo said:

He was going up against an elite DT who never had to think about the running back going past him.

And that’s different than a number of other games we played, how?

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

And that’s different than a number of other games we played, how?

 

Because during the regular season we still had Moss, and while we didnt run a lot, we didnt completely abandon it like we did in the playoffs.

 

Once we lost Moss, it was pass-only. Heck we went an entire half without a running play in the playoffs, where in the regular season we were still running effectively at the end of games to control the clock.

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

It's just opinion so I wont say this is "wrong", but I disagree big time. An elite run defender to me is a guy who stuffs a hole at the line, or even behind the line. Or when they have a clear shot at the RB in the backfield they actually make the tackle. Far too often it is Edmunds making contact 5 yards into the defense and then hanging on, or flat out missing easy tackles in the backfield and the RB goes for 10 yards.

 

He also was not in "man" against Kelce very much as the poster you are responding to claims. He was mainly in zone and one of his weaknesses (has been since college) which is play recognition was shown up again. Mahomes just moved him with his eyes a yard and a half and then threw to the spot where Kelce exposed the zone. The Bills pass D is dependant (and I think that is a strong word) on Edmunds taking away those passing lanes in the zone and Mahomes just kidded him out of those lanes a lot in the AFCCG. I actually wonder again if another wrinkle is to plan man to man on Kelce and then zone around it.... but if you do that it can't be Edmunds in man to man because you still need him for your zone integrity so it maybe has to be Milano or errr... whoever is in Milano's spot next year? It's a huge offseason for the Bills. They are trying to make moves to beat the Chiefs without throwing the baby (that has taken them to 25-11 in their last 36 games) out with the bathwater. Not easy. Not easy at all. 

 

EDIT: should also make clear that in the life of a Bills fan this is a "1st world problem" and I am not complaining. Better than wondering if we can cobble together 9 wins on the back of a wing, a prayer and a half decent run game. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by GunnerBill

[DrDawkinstein]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He also was not in "man" against Kelce very much as the poster you are responding to claims. He was mainly in zone and one of his weaknesses (has been since college) which is play recognition was shown up again. Mahomes just moved him with his eyes a yard and a half and then threw to the spot where Kelce exposed the zone. The Bills pass D is dependant (and I think that is a strong word) on Edmunds taking away those passing lanes in the zone and Mahomes just kidded him out of those lanes a lot in the AFCCG. I actually wonder again if another wrinkle is to plan man to man on Kelce and then zone around it.... but if you do that it can't be Edmunds in man to man because you still need him for your zone integrity so it maybe has to be Milano or errr... whoever is in Milano's spot next year? It's a huge offseason for the Bills. They are trying to make moves to beat the Chiefs without throwing the baby (that has taken them to 25-11 in their last 36 games) out with the bathwater. Not easy. Not easy at all. 

 

EDIT: should also make clear that in the life of a Bills fan this is a "1st world problem" and I am not complaining. Better than wondering if we can cobble together 9 wins on the back of a wing, a prayer and a half decent run game. 

 

Haha, it's a good problem to have when we are mostly worried about our All-Pro Pro Bowl LBs maybe not being All Pro Pro Bowl, and not about how we find a franchise QB like a lot of teams are right now.

 

Dead on about his play recognition and being easily manipulated.

 

I go back to Kuechly. I didnt even follow the Panthers but I can remember Kuechly making plays in the passing game pretty often. At least breaking up passes, or tipping balls, or tipping balls so they turn into INTs, etc. But I can't name ONE good play in pass defense that Edmunds has made. And he has far more speed and lengthy range the Kuechly, but he's never in the right spot to make the play.

 

With his height and wing span there should be no plays over the middle on this D. Yet that is where we get eaten alive.

Edited February 2, 2021 by DrDawkinstein

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Haha, it's a good problem to have when we are mostly worried about our All-Pro LBs maybe not being All Pro, and not about how we find a franchise QB like a lot of teams are right now.

 

Dead on about his play recognition and being easily manipulated.

 

I go back to Kuechly. I didnt even follow the Panthers but I can remember Kuechly making plays in the passing game pretty often. At least breaking up passes, or tipping balls, or tipping balls so they turn into INTs, etc. But I can't name ONE good play in pass defense that Edmunds has made. And he has far more speed and lengthy range the Kuechly, but he's never in the right spot to make the play.

 

With his height and wing span there should be no plays over the middle on this D. Yet that is where we get eaten alive.

 

I think you mean our Pro-Bowl linebacker not being All-Pro. Tremaine didn't receive any all-pro votes this year. I think he did get a couple of votes last year, which is not a surprise... 2019 was easily his best season as a pro and actually that year there were very few balls complete over he middle on us. Teams have watched tape though and I think the "Tremaine is a phenomenal athlete but lacks recognition skills" truth is out there league wide now. 

[appoo]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He also was not in "man" against Kelce very much as the poster you are responding to claims. He was mainly in zone and one of his weaknesses (has been since college) which is play recognition was shown up again. Mahomes just moved him with his eyes a yard and a half and then threw to the spot where Kelce exposed the zone. The Bills pass D is dependant (and I think that is a strong word) on Edmunds taking away those passing lanes in the zone and Mahomes just kidded him out of those lanes a lot in the AFCCG. I actually wonder again if another wrinkle is to plan man to man on Kelce and then zone around it.... but if you do that it can't be Edmunds in man to man because you still need him for your zone integrity so it maybe has to be Milano or errr... whoever is in Milano's spot next year? It's a huge offseason for the Bills. They are trying to make moves to beat the Chiefs without throwing the baby (that has taken them to 25-11 in their last 36 games) out with the bathwater. Not easy. Not easy at all. 

 

EDIT: should also make clear that in the life of a Bills fan this is a "1st world problem" and I am not complaining. Better than wondering if we can cobble together 9 wins on the back of a wing, a prayer and a half decent run game. 

What I mean about man coverage is that Edmunds would drop into his zone, he'd actually recognize the play and attempt to pick up Kelce, and then lose him - either because Mahomes moved him, or Kelce lose him with his footwork.

 

I was wrong to call it man coverage, agree with that, and I don't think I disagree with you on Edmunds' weakness here, which goes beyond dropping and reacting, but picking up nuance.

[BuffaloRebound]

Edmunds also has a little Thomas Smith in him.  For you youngsters, Smith was an above average CB in the mid 90’s for the Bills.  He was good in coverage but his giant flaw was QB’s had no fear throwing his way because he had no chance of ever catching the ball.  I feel NFL QB’s and offensive coordinators have caught onto the same thing with Edmunds.  Even if he’s in the right place, there’s no fear of throwing the ball in his direction.