SoCal Deek Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, GG said: Then by this standard, if two people get into an argument and one shoots the other, then pointing out that the argument led to the shooting is excusing the shooter? Is that what you are saying? Nobody is excusing Chauvin's actions. The new information could provide the motive for WHY he used grossly unnecessary force The interesting element here is that everyone's assumption has been that the Officer did what he did because the victim was BLACK. What if he actually did it for an entirely different reason? What if he knew the victim and had a grudge from some previous encounter? What if he was left handed? What if....? Edited June 9, 2020 by SoCal Deek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, Margarita said: what difference does it make that they knew each other.........does that justify what Chauvin did even if he knew Floyd to be a bad actor? It makes a large difference in terms of possible motives and the investigation into what happened. No one said it justified anything -- but if the motivation for the murder was not racism, but instead something related to their relationship -- that's pretty relevant. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, Margarita said: that reads to me like justification NOT buying it SMH his motives will be decided at court he has ZERO rationale to do what he did in my book...proned out, handcuffed.......come on....... other motive other than race but no justification to do it zero zilch NONE Are you seriously taking this stance? Have you read any of his previous posts in which he has condemned Chauvin and his actions? Even if you haven't, accusing him of justifying Chauvin's behavior from that post is ridiculous. However, you are welcome to your opinions, no matter how ridiculous I think they are. I'll let DR defend himself. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: It makes a large difference in terms of possible motives and the investigation into what happened. No one said it justified anything -- but if the motivation for the murder was not racism, but instead something related to their relationship -- that's pretty relevant. I think this is the rub...Now it is clearly explained that the motivation is what you are questioning and I mistakenly understood you were rationalizing the cops action.My point is the motivation to me is irrelevant in view of the facts that we all saw transpire namely those nearly 9 minutes of kneeling on a proned out handcuffed mans neck. I think any motivation he or anyone else ascribes to it is waaay overriden by the ultimate action and result. which was death. The courts will decide all the legal details like motivation.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 3 hours ago, Margarita said: the words you are putting into peoples minds are what don't matter. Maybe it takes eductating ourselves and not coming to snap judgments? Just a thought. So where does one get this education to figure out what these words mean? The dictionary just doesn't seem to work anymore. And who is in charge of changing these meanings. "When we say DEFUND we don't mean DEFUND. We mean RESTRUCTURE! Why can't you understand that??" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 11 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: It makes a large difference in terms of possible motives and the investigation into what happened. No one said it justified anything -- but if the motivation for the murder was not racism, but instead something related to their relationship -- that's pretty relevant. not to Mr Floyd it isn't or the countries vasts protests either for that matter rightly or wrongly..the courts will decide what relevance it has.......his actions better not be excused though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Margarita said: I think this is the rub...Now it is clearly explained that the motivation is what you are questioning and I mistakenly understood you were rationalizing the cops action.My point is the motivation to me is irrelevant in view of the facts that we all saw transpire namely those nearly 9 minutes of kneeling on a proned out handcuffed mans neck. I think any motivation he or anyone else ascribes to it is waaay overriden by the ultimate action and result. which was death. The courts will decide all the legal details like motivation.. No one is questioning his motivation, or using it to justify his actions. But...what if we just kneeled, protested, looted and rioted all over America on the totally wrong assumption that the officer had targeted this man because of his race? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 29 minutes ago, Margarita said: what difference does it make that they knew each other.........does that justify what Chauvin did even if he knew Floyd to be a bad actor? bolded is Rhinos post so you all mind readers know each and everyone elses every thought regarding donald trump....such great mind readers y'all are. Why wouldnt everyone want America to be great? This is a rabbit hole that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. We don't even know if it was racially motivated or not. But the country has been turned upside down with death and property destruction because of an unsubstantiated claim. Obviously motives matter since his assumed motive is what's started all this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Margarita said: I think this is the rub...Now it is clearly explained that the motivation is what you are questioning and I mistakenly understood you were rationalizing the cops action.My point is the motivation to me is irrelevant in view of the facts that we all saw transpire namely those nearly 9 minutes of kneeling on a proned out handcuffed mans neck. I think any motivation he or anyone else ascribes to it is waaay overriden by the ultimate action and result. which was death. The courts will decide all the legal details like motivation.. The issue is that the charges were raised from murder 3 to murder 2. The difference between the charges is essentially intent/motive. If they can't prove the motive the dude is going to walk. That said, they did mention a secondary charge of manslaughter, so maybe that is their floor? I'll let the legal folks expand, but it is a mistake to dismiss the motive. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: So where does one get this education to figure out what these words mean? The dictionary just doesn't seem to work anymore. And who is in charge of changing these meanings. "When we say DEFUND we don't mean DEFUND. We mean RESTRUCTURE! Why can't you understand that??" reflection, dialogue, discussion, compromise.agreement, just a few non radical ideas for starters......@-@ oh and no snap judgments Edited June 9, 2020 by Margarita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Margarita said: I think this is the rub...Now it is clearly explained that the motivation is what you are questioning and I mistakenly understood you were rationalizing the cops action.My point is the motivation to me is irrelevant in view of the facts that we all saw transpire namely those nearly 9 minutes of kneeling on a proned out handcuffed mans neck. I think any motivation he or anyone else ascribes to it is waaay overriden by the ultimate action and result. which was death. The courts will decide all the legal details like motivation.. Motive is a huge factor in whether the 2nd degree murder conviction sticks. Remember, there's a lot of criticism that the case got harder to prove with the upgraded charges. If they knew each other and Chauvin held a grudge, 2nd degree will stick. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Joe Miner said: We don't even know if it was racially motivated or not. But the country has been turned upside down with death and property destruction because of an unsubstantiated claim. Obviously motives matter since his assumed motive is what's started all this. it at this point is a distinction without a difference though can you rewind the clock....or convince folks it was not even partially racially motivated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, Margarita said: reflection, dialogue, discussion, compromise.agreement, just a few non radical ideas for starters......@-@ oh and no snap judgments Snap judgement?? What do you think when someone says "defund"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Margarita said: I think this is the rub...Now it is clearly explained that the motivation is what you are questioning and I mistakenly understood you were rationalizing the cops action.My point is the motivation to me is irrelevant in view of the facts that we all saw transpire namely those nearly 9 minutes of kneeling on a proned out handcuffed mans neck. I think any motivation he or anyone else ascribes to it is waaay overriden by the ultimate action and result. which was death. The courts will decide all the legal details like motivation.. No one is justifying what was done to Mr. Floyd. I'm certainly not. The issue of motivation does not change what happened or make it any less of a tragedy. What it does, however, is provide important context to the larger discussion being had around the country. If the reason for the confrontation, and the escalation of that confrontation that ended up with the knee on his neck, was borne out of a history between these two men that has nothing to do with racism or "cops gone wild" because of racism, then that matters. My interest lies in truth, not the cultivation or distortion of our perception. Whether George died because of a racist cop or because of a personal beef with a long time acquaintance/coworker doesn't somehow make the manner in which he died any less horrific. It just changes the discussion of what to do about it. Because one "motive" is very different from the other(s), both in terms of how we should view the event and how we can react/fix the problems it exposed. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, Margarita said: it at this point is a distinction without a difference though can you rewind the clock....or convince folks it was not even partially racially motivated? Un*****ingbelievable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, Margarita said: not to Mr Floyd it isn't or the countries vasts protests either for that matter rightly or wrongly..the courts will decide what relevance it has.......his actions better not be excused though. It should matter to the people protesting. You should always know why you're protesting and what the cause is. One motivation fits their cause, one does not. Acknowledging that fact does not lessen their cause. Holding up something as an example of their cause for weeks, only to discover that it had nothing to do with that cause in the end, does more harm to their cause in the long run in fact. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Just now, Joe Miner said: Un*****ingbelievable care to elaborate? will the actual motive make the racism discussions disappear, the riots all of a sudden not have happened...George Floyd not have died...? Thats what I meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, Margarita said: it at this point is a distinction without a difference though can you rewind the clock....or convince folks it was not even partially racially motivated? People tend to believe what they hear first, whether it's true or not. An issue like this, all the more so. Because it's emotional. Which is why it's a favorite trigger point to use by the cynical and politically motivated. People who are reacting emotionally are not, by definition, thinking clearly. That is a dangerous state of mind to be in, and often leads people to do things they later look back on with regret. Truth matters in the end. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Just now, Margarita said: care to elaborate? will the actual motive make the racism discussions disappear, the riots all of a sudden not have happened...George Floyd not have died...? Thats what I meant. We wouldn't be having this discussion in a thread about disbanding three Minneapolis police if his motive wasn't assumed to be racism. It absolutely matters. If this isn't about racism, there is nothing new to stand on to suggest systemic racism which means there's no reason for new protests and certainly no reason for riots. The truth always matters. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Deranged Rhino said: It should matter to the people protesting. You should always know why you're protesting and what the cause is. One motivation fits their cause, one does not. Acknowledging that fact does not lessen their cause. Holding up something as an example of their cause for weeks, only to discover that it had nothing to do with that cause in the end, does more harm to their cause in the long run in fact. it should but will it? I doubt it the buttons have already been pushed. Do I think these discussions will have be beneficial in the long run? I really hope so or this destruction and mayhem will have all been in vain. I doubt that everyine would ever be convinced that incident wasnt at least partially wasnt racially motivated no matter what previous contact those 2 may have had. 1 minute ago, Joe Miner said: We wouldn't be having this discussion in a thread about disbanding three Minneapolis police if his motive wasn't assumed to be racism. It absolutely matters. If this isn't about racism, there is nothing new to stand on to suggest systemic racism which means there's no reason for new protests and certainly no reason for riots. The truth always matters. whose version of the "truth" will be believed though........this isnt as cut and dried as you may think noone really knows the motive of Gauvin in his heart of hearts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) What was done in Camden NJ seems to have worked. But to call it "defunding" is asinine. "Restructure, retrain, reassign dollars" is what happened. Dump the expensive Unions. Restructure the out of control pensions of all Municipal Employees and reassign those dollars to put more (properly/better trained) cops on the street, to create programs to reduce crime. I think we'd all be in favor of that. It's all marketing and "Defunding the Police" is a ***** marketing nightmare. Edited June 9, 2020 by Chef Jim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: Snap judgement?? What do you think when someone says "defund"? remove funding. Can you know with complete certainty how that would be implemented or what cut? NO. hence the snap judgment it means whatever you think it means Edited June 9, 2020 by Margarita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Just now, Margarita said: it should but will it? History has a longer view than we do. It will matter, just not in the moment. 1 minute ago, Margarita said: I doubt it the buttons have already been pushed. I agree the buttons have already been pushed. But, if we learn that it was pushed under false pretenses (by people who don't really give a flip about the cause), then shouldn't that cause you to stop and reconsider what you think you know about the event itself? Or, at the very least, cause you to pause and consider the next time they try to "push the buttons"? 2 minutes ago, Margarita said: Do I think these discussions will have be beneficial in the long run? I really hope so or this destruction and mayhem will have all been in vain. The optimist in me is hopeful like you are. But the reality, sadly, is the discussions aren't meant to be beneficial in the long run. They're meant to further the divide, further the push to tear down our society from the inside out. That's why there's a divide within the movement itself over the meaning of words (defund doesn't really mean defund to one group, but it means exactly that to another group -- both of whom claim to be on the same side). You can't solve racism with more racism. You can't get a positive from a negative, it just does not work. The language of this moment by its leadership is steeped in identity politics and old school Marxism (but I repeat myself) -- which gives the true game away. Ask yourself this. How much of a protest against the system can these past few weeks actually be when they've been fully supported by almost everyone in government, every major power center in our society including: media, corporate, and technology? Is it really brave or revolutionary when it's fully supported by the established powers in the society the protesters are railing against? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Margarita said: remove funding. Can you know with complete certainty how that would be implemented or what cut? NO. hence the snap judgment it means whatever you think it means What defunding literally means it to remove funding right? That's what you said. So what that means is..... NO FUNDING = NO POLICE Correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: What was done in Camden NJ seems to have worked. But to call it "defunding" is asinine. "Restructure, retrain, reassign dollars" is what happened. Dump the expensive Unions. Restructure the out of control pensions of all Municipal Employees and reassign those dollars to put more cops on the street, to create programs to reduce crime. I think we'd all be in favor of that. It's all marketing and "Defunding the Police" is a ***** marketing nightmare. agreed. if you dont bother to look at the ramifications or what it has meant in other situations and only believe an anacronym means what you THINK it may mean. I think the devil is in the details to use an expression. another one I had last night was don't throw out the baby with the bathwater......meaning getting rid of all police is a ludricous idea just my opinion..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Margarita said: remove funding. Can you know with complete certainty how that would be implemented or what cut? NO. hence the snap judgment it means whatever you think it means You're a disingenuous piece of *****. Words have meanings. Words have consequences. Everything that's happening now is acceptable because it doesn't matter what the real truth was in the initial incident or the truth about what large portions of people are suggesting happen next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Chef Jim said: What defunding literally means it to remove funding right? That's what you said. So what that means is..... NO FUNDING = NO POLICE Correct? NOPE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Margarita said: agreed. if you dont bother to look at the ramifications or what it has meant in other situations and only believe an anacronym means what you THINK it may mean. I think the devil is in the details to use an expression. another one I had last night was don't throw out the baby with the bathwater......meaning getting rid of all police is a ludricous idea just my opinion..... Ummmm acronym is the word I think you're looking for here. Learn the language before you change the meaning of words. What does DEFUND stand for then? 1 minute ago, Margarita said: NOPE How does the police department operate if they have no funding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Margarita said: SMH mind reading and declaring a persons sole intent off of a 2-3 word slogan now thats fooking briliant too. Maybe just MAYBE its a jumping off for discussion and positive changes? People rioting, looting, and chanting in the streets are rarely attempting to provide a "jumping off" point for discussion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Joe Miner said: You're a disingenuous piece of *****. Words have meanings. Words have consequences. Everything that's happening now is acceptable because it doesn't matter what the real truth was in the initial incident or the truth about what large portions of people are suggesting happen next. thanks for the input. Joe. Everythuing is right as rain with racial issues in America GOTCHA. And Im the disingenuous one. 1 minute ago, Chef Jim said: Ummmm acronym is the word I think you're looking for here. Learn the language before you change the meaning of words. What does DEFUND stand for then? How does the police department operate if they have no funding? acronym okay thts what I meant defund as in allocate funds differently. Im no sole sourse of all knowledge like soime oh wise ones in here like Joe Miner..ask HIM lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiotAct Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: Ummmm acronym is the word I think you're looking for here. Learn the language before you change the meaning of words. What does DEFUND stand for then? How does the police department operate if they have no funding? Democrats Excited From U.S. National Divide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Azalin said: People rioting, looting, and chanting in the streets are rarely attempting to provide a "jumping off" point for discussion. And these are definitely the people I want to follow when it comes to restructuring of the police department. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: Ummmm acronym is the word I think you're looking for here. Learn the language before you change the meaning of words. What does DEFUND stand for then? How does the police department operate if they have no funding? straw tiger argument. thats using your definition of defund. Who said it meant divest of all funding for all police period...? YOU.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Margarita said: acronym okay thts what I meant defund as in allocate funds differently. Im no sole sourse of all knowledge like soime oh wise ones in here like Joe Miner..ask HIM lol Methinks you don't know what an acronym is. 1 minute ago, Margarita said: straw tiger argument. thats using your definition of defund. Who said it meant divest of all funding for all police period...? YOU.... No that's using EVERYONE IN THE ***** WORLD'S definition of defund up until last week. Good lord. And a straw tiger? Or did you mean a paper man. You're the last person to be arguing semantics. Edited June 9, 2020 by Chef Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, Azalin said: People rioting, looting, and chanting in the streets are rarely attempting to provide a "jumping off" point for discussion. oh but i disagree it certainly has here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Margarita said: straw tiger argument. Okay, the topic aside and the conversation aside, that's a FANTASTIC addition to the TBDism list Edited June 9, 2020 by Deranged Rhino 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Just now, Deranged Rhino said: Okay, the topic aside and the conversation aside, that's a FANTASTIC to the TBDism list It's been added to the book. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: Methinks you don't know what an acronym is. No that's using EVERYONE IN THE ***** WORLD'S definition of defund up until last week. Good lord. says who ..oh never mind. You the font of all knowledge wisdom and understanding.......and Joe Miner LOL SMH 2 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: Okay, the topic aside and the conversation aside, that's a FANTASTIC to the TBDism list oh geez that danged brain of mine straw MAN paper tiger geesh crucify me already Edited June 9, 2020 by Margarita 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Goat Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, Margarita said: says who ..oh never mind. You the font of all knowledge wisdom and understanding.......and Joe Miner LOL SMH Wow, you just lost that point in spectacular fashion. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Just now, Margarita said: says who ..oh never mind. You the font of all knowledge wisdom and understanding.......and Joe Miner LOL SMH No seriously you're argument is based solely on changing the meaning of a word. In what world is that an acceptable argument?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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