Protest in Buffalo

[billsfan1959]

43 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

I understand what you're saying, and given this didn't happen in a vacuum, it's NOT a crowd.  It's a couple guys, they arrested the one and shoved the other.  Please explain to me why they did not arrest both men?  What part of protocol justified pushing this man given the lack of a crowd?  If anything, he should have been the one most likely to be arrested.

 

I also take exception to your assertion that the man clearly reached his right hand toward an officer's belt.  He did not.  He had his cell phone in his hand and clearly motioning with his hand around the officer.

 

I don't have a problem with how the man received medical attention.  There clearly was a plan in place and the lead officers were instructed not to break ranks while others attended.

 

In this situation, I believe the officers did have the luxury to assess and simply arrest him after warning.  Protocols need to change.  I get that in other situations they may not and shoving people aside can be warranted.  "It's ok because in other situations it would be ok" just doesn't cut it.  People are sick of it.

 

The officers are in crowd control formation and moving toward an area. It doesn't matter if they have encountered a crowd yet or not. And, whether there was a crowd at that point or not has no bearing on why they pushed the man. They pushed him because he placed himself in a position to be considered a threat.

 

You might want to watch the video again. Not only did he reach his right hand toward the officer's belt, he did it twice. It doesn't matter if he had a cell phone in his hand or not. If you approach an officer, in any situation, much less this one, and get within 1-2 feet of him and reach your hand toward his belt, regardless of what you have in your hand, you will get the same response. As you should. When in the world did it ever become all right for a person to walk up to within 1-2 feet of an officer and reach toward that officer for any reason?

 

He initiated it. He engaged in actions that resulted in him being pushed back. He stumbled and fell. As I said before, had he not stumbled and fallen and persisted, he would have been arrested as well. And no, officers in that situation do not have the luxury of taking the time to assess whether or not the man poses a real threat or not. Once he placed himself that close to officers and reached his hand in the direction of an officer's belt, he has to be assumed to be a risk.

 

I won't bother to post situations in which police officers have been injured and killed because they didn't assume somebody getting that close to them posed a threat. I somehow don't think it would really matter to you.

 

You are welcome to your opinion. 

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by billsfan1959

[Warren Zevon]

14 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

If you approach an officer, in any situation, much less this one, and get within 1-2 feet of him and reach your hand toward his belt, regardless of what you have in your hand, you will get the same response. As you should. When in the world did it ever become all right for a person to walk up to within 1-2 feet of an officer and reach toward that officer for any reason?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and of course

 

[billsfan1959]

26 minutes ago, Warren Zevon said:

 

 

Not even in the ballpark of the situations I am talking about. Of course, you know that. Maybe one day you might actually add something substantive to a discussion.

 

Until then, you just keep being you, Gary...

[Warren Zevon]

47 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

If you approach an officer, in any situation, much less this one, and get within 1-2 feet of him and reach your hand toward his belt, regardless of what you have in your hand, you will get the same response. As you should.

 

 

Thank god you're not training cops anymore. This is what is wrong with policing. 

 

in any situation

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, Warren Zevon said:

 

Thank god you're not training cops anymore. This is what is wrong with policing. 

 

in any situation

 

Hey, next time you are walking down the street and see an officer, walk up to 1-2 feet of him/her and reach your hand toward his/her belt.

 

Let us all know how it turns out....

[Warren Zevon]

16 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Hey, next time you are walking down the street and see an officer, walk up to 1-2 feet of him/her and reach your hand toward his/her belt.

 

 

I've shaken a cops hand before.

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, Warren Zevon said:

 

I've shaken a cops hand before.

 

My guess it was after he agreed to let you go after that little restroom incident at the truckstop... 

 

You really are sooo adorable when you try to participate in adult conversations

[Warren Zevon]

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

in any situation

 

Your words, not mine, cop.

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, Warren Zevon said:

Your words, not mine, cop.

 

Really? This is the best you could come up up with?

 

You are just not very good at this Gary...

 

[whatdrought]

8 minutes ago, Warren Zevon said:

 

Your words, not mine, cop.

You’re mentally ######ed. 

[Chef Jim]

2 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

I understand what you're saying, and given this didn't happen in a vacuum, it's NOT a crowd.  It's a couple guys, they arrested the one and shoved the other.  Please explain to me why they did not arrest both men?  What part of protocol justified pushing this man given the lack of a crowd?  If anything, he should have been the one most likely to be arrested.

 

I also take exception to your assertion that the man clearly reached his right hand toward an officer's belt.  He did not.  He had his cell phone in his hand and clearly motioning with his hand around the officer.

 

I don't have a problem with how the man received medical attention.  There clearly was a plan in place and the lead officers were instructed not to break ranks while others attended.

 

In this situation, I believe the officers did have the luxury to assess and simply arrest him after warning.  Protocols need to change.  I get that in other situations they may not and shoving people aside can be warranted.  "It's ok because in other situations it would be ok" just doesn't cut it.  People are sick of it.

Even more the reason they simply should have arrested him if they truly felt he was trying to take their weapons.  Seems like a great reason above and beyond curfew.  You are making little sense.  And again, there were 2 protesters in the vicinity, not a crowd.  They arrested the other guy.   Why couldn't they just have arrested Gugino?  You refuse to give me a reason.  Gugino was playing a stupid game, on that we agree.

 

Why didn't they arrest him?  The reason I can't answer that is because I wasn't inside their head.  Can I speculate?   Sure.  Maybe their first reaction was "don't touch me...move along or we will arrest you!"   Then he got knocked to the ground. Arresting him at that point would have been a very back visual. 

 

Regarding the bold.  I've always say stupid should hurt.  Guess what?  It did.  

[Warren Zevon]

2 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

You’re mentally ######ed. 

 

Cool. You're mentally mature.

[Chef Jim]

1 hour ago, Warren Zevon said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

and of course

 

 

Yup those are the exact same situation that was in Buffalo.  Oy.............

23 minutes ago, Warren Zevon said:

 

I've shaken a cops hand before.

 

Were they in riot gear?  

[Warren Zevon]

1 minute ago, Chef Jim said:

Yup those are the exact same situation that was in Buffalo.  Oy.............

 

The former cop said 

 

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

in any situation

 

 

that's the point fat lunch man.

[Chef Jim]

3 minutes ago, Warren Zevon said:

 

The former cop said 

 

 

that's the point fat lunch man.

 

I don't give a flip what the former cop said.  I'm referring to the pictures you posted vs what happened in Buffalo.  And who is this fat lunch man you're talking about? 

[Warren Zevon]

1 minute ago, Chef Jim said:

 

I don't give a flip what the former cop said.  I'm referring to the pictures you posted vs what happened in Buffalo. 

 

The situations are drastically different - you are right. Now if you would like to contribute to the context of the conversation (you're terrible at this) feel free.

[Chef Jim]

No I see what you're saying.  Thanks for clarifying.  And clarify this for me. Who is this fat lunch guy you keep talking about? 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

55 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Hey, next time you are walking down the street and see an officer, walk up to 1-2 feet of him/her and reach your hand toward his/her belt.

 

Let us all know how it turns out....

Actually, the true test comes when someone else violates his personal space and reaches toward his n*ts.  It's easy to be judgemental when someone else's n*ts are in play. 

 

 

[Warren Zevon]

nuts

 

It's okay to say nuts.

[Chef Jim]

5 minutes ago, Warren Zevon said:

nuts

 

It's okay to say nuts.

 

Gary is nuts.

 

Hey you're right. 

[Koko78]

1 hour ago, Chef Jim said:

 

Why didn't they arrest him?  The reason I can't answer that is because I wasn't inside their head.  Can I speculate?   Sure.  Maybe their first reaction was "don't touch me...move along or we will arrest you!"   Then he got knocked to the ground. Arresting him at that point would have been a very back visual. 

 

Regarding the bold.  I've always say stupid should hurt.  Guess what?  It did.  

 

Arrest him for what? He had committed no crime.

 

Pushing him out of the way was the only actual option.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

14 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

Arrest him for what? He had committed no crime.

 

Pushing him out of the way was the only actual option.

that's very interesting.  excellent, thanks. 

 

 

[Taro T]

17 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

Arrest him for what? He had committed no crime.

 

Pushing him out of the way was the only actual option.

 

Was it past curfew or not?  (Thought this occurred just after, if it happened before, yeah, walking in a public space seems to not cross the legal/illegal threshold.)

 

Even if it were just after curfew would've been surprised to see him arrested for simply what had happened to that point.

[Chef Jim]

2 hours ago, Koko78 said:

 

Arrest him for what? He had committed no crime.

 

Pushing him out of the way was the only actual option.

 

Curfew violation? 

[bdutton]

18 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

Curfew violation? 

Failure to obey a lawful order, public disturbance, obstruction of police action.

[Chef Jim]

19 minutes ago, bdutton said:

Failure to obey a lawful order, public disturbance, obstruction of police action.

 

And being stupid.  

[Koko78]

1 hour ago, Chef Jim said:

 

Curfew violation? 

 

Can't really arrest someone for that. They could have gave him an appearance ticket, though.

[GaryPinC]

On 6/18/2020 at 1:42 PM, billsfan1959 said:

 

The officers are in crowd control formation and moving toward an area. It doesn't matter if they have encountered a crowd yet or not. And, whether there was a crowd at that point or not has no bearing on why they pushed the man. They pushed him because he placed himself in a position to be considered a threat.

 

You might want to watch the video again. Not only did he reach his right hand toward the officer's belt, he did it twice. It doesn't matter if he had a cell phone in his hand or not. If you approach an officer, in any situation, much less this one, and get within 1-2 feet of him and reach your hand toward his belt, regardless of what you have in your hand, you will get the same response. As you should. When in the world did it ever become all right for a person to walk up to within 1-2 feet of an officer and reach toward that officer for any reason?

 

He initiated it. He engaged in actions that resulted in him being pushed back. He stumbled and fell. As I said before, had he not stumbled and fallen and persisted, he would have been arrested as well. And no, officers in that situation do not have the luxury of taking the time to assess whether or not the man poses a real threat or not. Once he placed himself that close to officers and reached his hand in the direction of an officer's belt, he has to be assumed to be a risk.

 

I won't bother to post situations in which police officers have been injured and killed because they didn't assume somebody getting that close to them posed a threat. I somehow don't think it would really matter to you.

 

You are welcome to your opinion. 

 

Please, feel free to do so.  It does matter to me and I'll discuss honestly.  I have never said the officers aren't allowed to respond that way to a perceived threat.  I've said in this situation it was unwarranted and unprofessional.  While you say the situation doesn't matter, I say it does and police officers responded poorly.  At least 2 of them failed to accurately assess the situation.  I also definitely dispute Gugino was reaching towards the officer as much as he was motioning across his body, but you are also entitled to your  own opinion.

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, GaryPinC said:

Please, feel free to do so.  It does matter to me and I'll discuss honestly.  I have never said the officers aren't allowed to respond that way to a perceived threat.  I've said in this situation it was unwarranted and unprofessional.  While you say the situation doesn't matter, I say it does and police officers responded poorly.  At least 2 of them failed to accurately assess the situation.  I also definitely dispute Gugino was reaching towards the officer as much as he was motioning across his body, but you are also entitled to your  own opinion.

 

I have stated all of the reasons why I believe the officers acted appropriately. He approached the officers. He was yelling, he got well within a radius that can present a safety risk to an officer, ignored orders to get back, and he did, in fact, reach his right hand toward an officer. It was at that point he was pushed back.

 

I'm sorry he fell as he did and I am sorry for any injuries he may have sustained. However, I stand by my assessment.

 

We can just agree to disagree.

[Warren Zevon]

Will they release the body cam footage and audio before or after the trial? That is the most important piece of evidence nobody on PPP has seen or heard. 

[3rdnlng]

2 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

Please, feel free to do so.  It does matter to me and I'll discuss honestly.  I have never said the officers aren't allowed to respond that way to a perceived threat.  I've said in this situation it was unwarranted and unprofessional.  While you say the situation doesn't matter, I say it does and police officers responded poorly.  At least 2 of them failed to accurately assess the situation.  I also definitely dispute Gugino was reaching towards the officer as much as he was motioning across his body, but you are also entitled to your  own opinion.

Seriously?

[GaryPinC]

2 hours ago, 3rdnlng said:

Seriously?

Such a pity you can't view the video impartially and watch that cell phone waving in his outstretched hand, indicative of motioning toward the steps. 

[3rdnlng]

10 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

Such a pity you can't view the video the contorted way I see it. 

FIFY

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

4 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

Please, feel free to do so.  It does matter to me and I'll discuss honestly.  I have never said the officers aren't allowed to respond that way to a perceived threat.  I've said in this situation it was unwarranted and unprofessional.  While you say the situation doesn't matter, I say it does and police officers responded poorly.  At least 2 of them failed to accurately assess the situation.  I also definitely dispute Gugino was reaching towards the officer as much as he was motioning across his body, but you are also entitled to your  own opinion.

Jesus.  He was "motioning across his body" while thrusting his hand toward the officer's groin, and it's incumbent on the officer to be professional and allow this man to do whatever he wanted?  That creepy old guy would be pushed 98 times out of 100, and 75 of those times he would have been shoved substantially harder.

 

 

[RiotAct]

I don’t think 3rdNLng is watching the same video as we are.

0:15-0:17

[GaryPinC]

1 hour ago, RiotAct said:

I don’t think 3rdNLng is watching the same video as we are.

0:15-0:17

 

Watching but barely.  They only see enough of what they want to see. 

 

The funny part is I've experienced these street clearings a few times because there's a yearly festival in a part of Cleveland called Little Italy.  It's a tight area and in the past there have been many fights late at night so it now ends at 10 PM and the Cleveland police form a clearing line with search-lighted choppers overhead and mounteds among the officers on foot.  They go right down the street and scare hundreds in front of them to leave, while not friendly they will stop and professionally engage people who come up to them, as happened to me when my car was on the other side of them.  I've also watched drunks and various jackholes come right up to them and never any shoving, either the person clears out within 30 seconds or they end up in the police van.  They have no problem stopping one or two officers while the rest of the line fills in and continues.  True professionals.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...certainly the individual's prerogative to join in this....but at age 75, considering the volatility of the situation, cops on edge being threatened/challenged, can one's protest be more important than sacrificing personal safety ?......removing cops from the equation for a second, what is a surge or push of protesters knocked him down for not being able to keep up?.....regardless of MY opinions, I'm not putting myself at risk at age 67 for whatever to purported value is in being there.....probably just me............

Edited June 23, 2020 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Warren Zevon]

Systemic