Prescott for Allen

[Not at the table Karlos]

I am pretty hard on Allen. He has a lot to improve on but there’s no way I’d trade Allen for Dak and I like Dak. 

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

So if you take away the best season of his 4 year career, he’s only 6 games above .500...

 

Posters here will twist themselves into pretzels to explain why Allen is way better than his stats suggest while insisting that every other QB is far worse than their numbers suggest.  Dak led his team to 119 more points than Allen.  If a team can’t make the postseason when scoring 113 points more than their opponents, that’s horrendous coaching.  TBD would throw a parade if Allen had a season anywhere near as productive as what Dak just had, and Dak is still only 26.

 

James Winston led the NFL in passing last year.  He is not a good QB.  Stat chasing is a fools path to false positive results.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

Against the NFC East the Cowboys were +97.   Add the Dolphins and it's +122 and a 6 and 1 record.  Blowout the struggling teams and go 2 and 7 against the rest of the schedule.  Many of the losses where the offense fell flat, NE, NO, Bills, @ Phi.   

 

I am more anti Cowboys than anti Dak.  Many points in my post are open to the possibility that Dak could be more successful outside their team culture. 

 

The 2019 Cowboy offense was all about racking up points and stats against bad teams and failing against good ones.  

 

And, I fear, the anti-Cowboy sentiment does blight this conversation somewhat. No question the 2019 Dallas Cowboys underperformed though. That was a roster that should have gone deep in the post-season IMO.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

James Winston led the NFL in passing last year.  He is not a good QB.  Stat chasing is a fools path to false positive results.

 

Indeed. But Dak hasn't just been a stat monster. He has been a winning Quarterback over his 4 years, and as mentioned by others earlier has a good number of game winning drives to testify to that.

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Indeed. But Dak hasn't just been a stat monster. He has been a winning Quarterback over his 4 years, and as mentioned by others earlier has a good number of game winning drives to testify to that.

 

I dont disagree...I dont think Dak is bad like Jameis.  I just think its foolish to use stat only based arguments in any situation, especially year end totals.  In Daks best seasons, the Cowboys have won nothing essentially and underperformed.  There is something to that...is it Dak...was it just coaching...was it other players...its honestly hard to really say exactly why.  But he was the leader of that team...and his team and offense too often didn't show up in the big games or big moments.  

 

Thats the divisive part of Dak.  Saying he's great only because his stats are better isnt telling the whole story.  Can using only stats tell the right story...sure...but they are unreliable as the only measurement to reach that conclusion.  

 

As you know...I think Dak is a good QB...but I doubt his championship potential.  He is young, can certainly prove those doubts wrong on the field.  But he has had a very talented roster around him and still keeps coming up short despite individual statistical success.  Same with someone like Cooper for instance.  End of season stats look great, but he really had a few monster games to pad those stats and was way way way too often irrelevant in the big moments and big games and wildly inconsistent.  Which is why it was ludicrous to me to hand that man a $100M contract at $20M per year.  $12-$14M a year...sure, all day.  But that kind of money he got is reserved for only the elite WR's.  Dak wants elite QB money, but he's been far from elite IMO thus far.  

[Mister Defense]

11 hours ago, FireChans said:

Allen loves Chippewa!

 

@GunnerBill we got a live one!

 

also a big hearty LOL to the bolded. Andy Dalton has always DOMINATED in the postseason. He’s like Brady combined with Montana. Everyone knows this.

 

 

Nice factsl to back yourself up... 

 

Prescott, with MUCH superior talent and a much more committed organization around him--one playoff win.
 

Ignorance is bliss, though, huh? If so, FireChans is livin' the dream...

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Mister Defense

[FireChans]

11 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

 

Nice factsl to back yourself up... 

 

Prescott, with MUCH superior talent and a much more committed organization around him--one playoff win.
 

Ignorance is bliss, though, huh? If so, FireChans is livin' the dream...

 

 

 

Andy Dalton has had some good teams. Zero playoff wins. Dak has thrown more TD’s and less INTs than Dalton in the postseason in less games. Dalton’s passer rating in the playoffs is 57. Dak’s is 95.

 

Your opinions are laughably bad, right up to “Josh loves Buffalo and will take much less than market value.” You believe this because he plays for your favorite team. 

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Which is why it was ludicrous to me to hand that man a $100M contract at $20M per year.  $12-$14M a year...sure, all day.  But that kind of money he got is reserved for only the elite WR's.  Dak wants elite QB money, but he's been far from elite IMO thus far.  

 

And I agree with you on the Cooper deal. He got elite money and is not elite. But for Quarterbacks it is different. There is no "franchise but not elite Quarterback" tier when it comes to the market. You either have a franchise quarterback - in which case when their contract comes up you better be ready to put them in the top 2 or 3 "elite" payment tier or you don't. I guarantee none of Josh Allen, Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield, Lamar Jackson are signing a deal that doesn't put them in elite territory money wise at the point they sign it unless one of them majorly bombs. It is just the way of the market. It won't right itself unless the NFL intervenes as it did when rookie salaries were out of control. They have just missed the chance to do it in this CBA so we are stuck with this distorted QB market for a while to come in my mind. It isn't ideal but it is what it is.

[FireChans]

23 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I dont disagree...I dont think Dak is bad like Jameis.  I just think its foolish to use stat only based arguments in any situation, especially year end totals.  In Daks best seasons, the Cowboys have won nothing essentially and underperformed.  There is something to that...is it Dak...was it just coaching...was it other players...its honestly hard to really say exactly why.  But he was the leader of that team...and his team and offense too often didn't show up in the big games or big moments.  

 

Thats the divisive part of Dak.  Saying he's great only because his stats are better isnt telling the whole story.  Can using only stats tell the right story...sure...but they are unreliable as the only measurement to reach that conclusion.  

 

As you know...I think Dak is a good QB...but I doubt his championship potential.  He is young, can certainly prove those doubts wrong on the field.  But he has had a very talented roster around him and still keeps coming up short despite individual statistical success.  Same with someone like Cooper for instance.  End of season stats look great, but he really had a few monster games to pad those stats and was way way way too often irrelevant in the big moments and big games and wildly inconsistent.  Which is why it was ludicrous to me to hand that man a $100M contract at $20M per year.  $12-$14M a year...sure, all day.  But that kind of money he got is reserved for only the elite WR's.  Dak wants elite QB money, but he's been far from elite IMO thus far.  

It was one year dude. Peyton Manning went 6-10 his fourth year. 

 

I have no idea why so many folks are so quick to write off a dude’s entire body of work because of one down TEAM year. 

 

If Josh Allen next year goes 12-4 and wins in the playoffs, then the next year we get unlucky and the the team steps back and Allen continues to play EVEN BETTER, and we miss the postseason, we’d say let this bum walk? I don’t think so. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

It was one year dude. Peyton Manning went 6-10 his fourth year. 

 

I have no idea why so many folks are so quick to write off a dude’s entire body of work because of one down TEAM year. 

 

 

In which the team went 8-8 and that player played well for the most part.

[Billl]

52 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

James Winston led the NFL in passing last year.  He is not a good QB.  Stat chasing is a fools path to false positive results.

Stats will tell you that Winston threw 30 INTs and Dak threw 11.  Cherry picking stats leads to false positive results.

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

In which the team went 8-8 and that player played well for the most part.

I think everyone can acknowledge a couple things-

 

1. Prescott has shown more capability as an NFL QB than has Allen at this point in their respective careers

 

2. Both suffered from offensive issues re receivers dropping their passes last season

 

3. It's reasonable to assume Allen's potential trajectory and conclude that plus his current salary makes such a trade unappealing 

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

I think everyone can acknowledge a couple things-

 

1. Prescott has shown more capability as an NFL QB than has Allen at this point in their respective careers

 

2. Both suffered from offensive issues re receivers dropping their passes last season

 

3. It's reasonable to assume Allen's potential trajectory and conclude that plus his current salary makes such a trade unappealing 

I agree with all of this. But there are some folks in this thread acting like Dak is Jay Cutler and that is just completely off base.

[Billl]

20 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Andy Dalton has had some good teams. Zero playoff wins. Dak has thrown more TD’s and less INTs than Dalton in the postseason in less games. Dalton’s passer rating in the playoffs is 57. Dak’s is 95.

 

Your opinions are laughably bad, right up to “Josh loves Buffalo and will take much less than market value.” You believe this because he plays for your favorite team. 

Every kid from Southern California dreams of moving to upstate NY and is willing to pass up tens of millions to do so.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

I agree with all of this. But there are some folks in this thread acting like Dak is Jay Cutler and that is just completely off base.

I could not think of a worse comparison to Prescott than Jay Cutler

[Nextmanup]

On 5/30/2020 at 3:56 PM, 78thealltimegreat said:

A guy who writes articles on fansided states the Bills should trade for Dak as he is a significant upgrade over Josh and would push the Bills to the next level and he says the Bills can throw in a few

draft picks as well...I often wonder did they watch the Thanksgiving game I think the Cowboys would drive Dak to he airport for that deal 

Posing that question to this fanbase is like going to St. Peter's during Easter Sunday mass and asking the congregation if they think the Pope should be displaced as the head of the church in favor of Satan.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

41 minutes ago, FireChans said:

It was one year dude. Peyton Manning went 6-10 his fourth year. 

 

I have no idea why so many folks are so quick to write off a dude’s entire body of work because of one down TEAM year. 

 

If Josh Allen next year goes 12-4 and wins in the playoffs, then the next year we get unlucky and the the team steps back and Allen continues to play EVEN BETTER, and we miss the postseason, we’d say let this bum walk? I don’t think so. 

 

One year?  They have underachieved in Daks best 2 seasons...its more than one year.  

 

And where did I condemn him?  Dont lump me into some category I am NOT in.  I said he was a good QB in the very post you are quoting.  You do this a lot dude, you twist statements to mean an extreme that is NOT being said.  

 

What I actually said is that he is a good QB but I am not sold on his championship pedigree.  He has had a vastly superior roster to most of the NFL the last 2 seasons, and yet they have underachieved.  He has big games agaisnt marginal or lower tier talent, but that team is not getting it done often enough agaisnt better competition or big games.  I even said, its hard to even answer why right now.  

 

This is what I often hate about discussing things with you.  You literally claim things are being said that are not being said and its utterly irritating.  No disrespect, but I am just being honest about your posting style.  

[Doc]

25 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I think everyone can acknowledge a couple things-

 

1. Prescott has shown more capability as an NFL QB than has Allen at this point in their respective careers

 

2. Both suffered from offensive issues re receivers dropping their passes last season

 

3. It's reasonable to assume Allen's potential trajectory and conclude that plus his current salary makes such a trade unappealing 

 

I disagree with this part. 

[Alphadawg7]

51 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And I agree with you on the Cooper deal. He got elite money and is not elite. But for Quarterbacks it is different. There is no "franchise but not elite Quarterback" tier when it comes to the market. You either have a franchise quarterback - in which case when their contract comes up you better be ready to put them in the top 2 or 3 "elite" payment tier or you don't. I guarantee none of Josh Allen, Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield, Lamar Jackson are signing a deal that doesn't put them in elite territory money wise at the point they sign it unless one of them majorly bombs. It is just the way of the market. It won't right itself unless the NFL intervenes as it did when rookie salaries were out of control. They have just missed the chance to do it in this CBA so we are stuck with this distorted QB market for a while to come in my mind. It isn't ideal but it is what it is.

 

I do fully agree with this Gunner, its the nature of the position.  Overpay is common and understandable with the QB's.  I dont personally subscribe to it, like how I agreed with the Redskins decision to not overpay for Cousins who IMO is a 3rd tier, border line 2nd tier starting QB in that 14 to 18 range of rankings.  That doesn't mean Redskins have done a good job rebuilding, even if I agree it was better to rebuild than overpay and stick with mediocracy.  But I would have made the same decision, although I just also would have made much better decisions after the fact in how to rebuild that team as most of which they have done I have not been a fan of since.  But thats bad leadership in that FO IMO.  

 

 

40 minutes ago, Billl said:

Stats will tell you that Winston threw 30 INTs and Dak threw 11.  Cherry picking stats leads to false positive results.

 

Yet Cowboys missed the playoffs, Dak didnt produce enough in big game or against the better teams.  So yeah, cherry picking stats also leads to false positive results. 

[FireChans]

13 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

One year?  They have underachieved in Daks best 2 seasons...its more than one year.  

 

And where did I condemn him?  Dont lump me into some category I am NOT in.  I said he was a good QB in the very post you are quoting.  You do this a lot dude, you twist statements to mean an extreme that is NOT being said.  

 

What I actually said is that he is a good QB but I am not sold on his championship pedigree.  He has had a vastly superior roster to most of the NFL the last 2 seasons, and yet they have underachieved.  He has big games agaisnt marginal or lower tier talent, but that team is not getting it done often enough agaisnt better competition or big games.  I even said, its hard to even answer why right now.  

 

This is what I often hate about discussing things with you.  You literally claim things are being said that are not being said and its utterly irritating.  No disrespect, but I am just being honest about your posting style.  

What is your definition of “underachieved?”

 

What young QB’s ARE you sold on their championship pedigree? Don’t mention QB’s who have already won Super Bowls.

 

The reason why there is a disconnect is because I guess some of you expected Dak to have won a Super Bowl by now? Or some other lofty standard? 

Edited June 3, 2020 by FireChans

[Alphadawg7]

24 minutes ago, FireChans said:

What is your definition of “underachieved?”

 

What young QB’s ARE you sold on their championship pedigree? Don’t mention QB’s who have already won Super Bowls.

 

The reason why there is a disconnect is because I guess some of you expected Dak to have won a Super Bowl by now? Or some other lofty standard? 

 

Again, where did I say he needs to have won a SB already?  Some of the GOATS never won a SB or didnt until late in their careers.  What I have said, is he has a championship caliber roster and has for multiple years now.  Yet the team, led by Dak, has not reached their potential or expectations even in Daks statistical best seasons.  He has had a lot of big games against lesser competition, but has not been able to consistently replicate that when it matters most or against better teams.  

 

I also said, we don't know why yet.  Was it him...coaching...other players around him...etc...we don't know.  But what he has NOT done is prove to me IMO that he is worth elite money, at least not YET.  I also said he is young and can still prove that on the field.  But as a GM, I am not paying elite money to a guy who didnt even make the playoffs with a top 5 roster in the NFL, and IMO the Cowboys had a top 5 roster last year.  I dont approve of the money they spent on Cooper (not worth it) or Zeke (talent is worth it, but spending that money on a RB isnt needed in todays NFL and often backfires). 

 

I also did not approve of big contracts to guys like Kapernick, Jimmy G, Tannehill (in Miami), etc etc.  You know who I pay top money too...Russel Wilson who came in and took an 8-8 team as a rookie and made it a perennial powerhouse from the moment he stepped on the field.  Guys who elevate the win totals.  Cowboys have won one playoff game in 4 years with a top tier roster over that span.  

 

Bottom line, I can name a lot of solid to decent QB's who could have replicated the same amount of team success with that same roster over the 4 years.  I havent seen Dak separate himself into elite pay category.  He still can...maybe it was all coaching, we wont know until we see Dak and this Cowboy team on the field with new coaching for the first time.  BUT...I would WAIT to commit elite money UNTIL I see that difference ON THE FIELD and not the personal stat sheet.

 

So you need to stop claiming I am condemning him, I have done no such thing.  I am perfectly within my right to NOT be sold on whether he can be the QB that the contract he is demanding says he is.  Why...because he doesn't have the results to justify it despite having the roster to achieve it every year he has been in the NFL.  

Edited June 3, 2020 by Alphadawg7

[FireChans]

11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Again, where did I say he needs to have won a SB already?  Some of the GOATS never won a SB or didnt until late in their careers.  What I have said, is he has a championship caliber roster and has for multiple years now.  Yet the team, led by Dak, has not reached their potential or expectations even in Daks statistical best seasons.  He has had a lot of big games against lesser competition, but has not been able to consistently replicate that when it matters most or against better teams.  

 

I also said, we don't know why yet.  Was it him...coaching...other players around him...etc...we don't know.  But what he has NOT done is prove to me IMO that he is worth elite money, at least not YET.  I also said he is young and can still prove that on the field.  But as a GM, I am not paying elite money to a guy who didnt even make the playoffs with a top 5 roster in the NFL, and IMO the Cowboys had a top 5 roster last year.  I dont approve of the money they spent on Cooper (not worth it) or Zeke (talent is worth it, but spending that money on a RB isnt needed in todays NFL and often backfires). 

 

I also did not approve of big contracts to guys like Kapernick, Jimmy G, Tannehill (in Miami), etc etc.  You know who I pay top money too...Russel Wilson who came in and took an 8-8 team as a rookie and made it a perennial powerhouse from the moment he stepped on the field.  Guys who elevate the win totals.  Cowboys have won one playoff game in 4 years with a top tier roster over that span.  

 

Bottom line, I can name a lot of solid to decent QB's who could have replicated the same amount of team success with that same roster over the 4 years.  I havent seen Dak separate himself into elite pay category.  He still can...maybe it was all coaching, we wont know until we see Dak and this Cowboy team on the field with new coaching for the first time.  BUT...I would WAIT to commit elite money UNTIL I see that difference ON THE FIELD and not the personal stat sheet.

 

So you need to stop claiming I am condemning him, I have done no such thing.  I am perfectly within my right to NOT be sold on whether he can be the QB that the contract he is demanding says he is.  Why...because he doesn't have the results to justify it despite having the roster to achieve it every year he has been in the NFL.  

I never said you said he needed to have won a Super Bowl already. Stop taking rhetorical questions as quotes of yours.

 

What expectations are those that they have not met? Like you keep talking about how they haven’t achieved what they should. Give a tangible goal.

 

What young QB’s have proved their championship pedigree to you?

 

Please answer these questions.

 

My personal theory is that you, like many other folks in this thread, WON’T like to answer those questions because your opinions fall apart with cursory examination. Because once you put them into the larger context of the NFL, they are silly.

Edited June 3, 2020 by FireChans

[Alphadawg7]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I never said you said he needed to have won a Super Bowl already. Stop taking rhetorical questions as quotes of yours.

 

What expectations are those that they have not met? Like you keep talking about how they haven’t achieved what they should. Give a tangible goal.

 

What young QB’s have proved their championship pedigree to you?

 

Please answer these questions.

 

My personal theory is that you, like many other folks in this thread, WON’T like to answer those questions because your opinions fall apart with cursory examination. Because once you put them into the larger context of the NFL, they are silly.

 

I just did answer that question. I suggest you read it again.

 

One playoff win in 4 years with a championship roster all 4 years, including a .500 season last year, and not showing up in the bigger game against better competition.  I mean I literally even cited a specific example of a player who came in and immediately elevated his team to a perennial powerhouse in Russel Wilson as an example of a guy who proved early he was worth elite money.

 

Honestly man, you need to start reading the posts better you reply to.  You do this a lot.  

[Doc]

So we're saying that Dak is like Romo?

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I just did answer that question. I suggest you read it again.

 

One playoff win in 4 years with a championship roster all 4 years, including a .500 season last year, and not showing up in the bigger game against better competition.  I mean I literally even cited a specific example of a player who came in and immediately elevated his team to a perennial powerhouse in Russel Wilson as an example of a guy who proved early he was worth elite money.

 

Honestly man, you need to start reading the posts better you reply to.  You do this a lot.  

What bigger games did he not show up for? 

 

The reason why I continue to ask the questions is because you are not specific. If they had two playoff wins, do you say pay him?

 

You use Russell Wilson, a guy who won a Super Bowl by his second year, and then vehemently deny that Dak needed to win a Super Bowl to earn an extension.

 

You continue to say these vague things to “prove” Dak isn’t worth an extension, BUT you also refuse to tell me what young QB’s have earned that stamp of championship pedigree approval. I will ask a THIRD time. What young QB’s have proven their championship pedigree? RUSSELL WILSON IS 31. He is on his THIRD contract. He does NOT COUNT.

 

I will give you credit, Alpha. I went back and you were one person who has been incredibly consistent about paying Russ from the jump. Lots of folks in 2015 were saying it was all the talented team around him and you weren’t.

[Billl]

39 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I never said you said he needed to have won a Super Bowl already. Stop taking rhetorical questions as quotes of yours.

 

What expectations are those that they have not met? Like you keep talking about how they haven’t achieved what they should. Give a tangible goal.

 

What young QB’s have proved their championship pedigree to you?

 

Please answer these questions.

 

My personal theory is that you, like many other folks in this thread, WON’T like to answer those questions because your opinions fall apart with cursory examination. Because once you put them into the larger context of the NFL, they are silly.

C’mon now...  He just said he’d pay Russell Wilson.  Give him props for bold statements like that.  Just go get a first ballot HOFer to play QB for 15 years and then draft a roster of all pros to put around him.  Why don’t more GMs realize this?

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I think everyone can acknowledge a couple things-

 

1. Prescott has shown more capability as an NFL QB than has Allen at this point in their respective careers

 

2. Both suffered from offensive issues re receivers dropping their passes last season

 

3. It's reasonable to assume Allen's potential trajectory and conclude that plus his current salary makes such a trade unappealing 

 

Agree totally with that. 

[Kirby Jackson]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I think everyone can acknowledge a couple things-

 

1. Prescott has shown more capability as an NFL QB than has Allen at this point in their respective careers

 

2. Both suffered from offensive issues re receivers dropping their passes last season

 

3. It's reasonable to assume Allen's potential trajectory and conclude that plus his current salary makes such a trade unappealing 

100% this

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

What bigger games did he not show up for? 

 

The reason why I continue to ask the questions is because you are not specific. If they had two playoff wins, do you say pay him?

 

You use Russell Wilson, a guy who won a Super Bowl by his second year, and then vehemently deny that Dak needed to win a Super Bowl to earn an extension.

 

You continue to say these vague things to “prove” Dak isn’t worth an extension, BUT you also refuse to tell me what young QB’s have earned that stamp of championship pedigree approval. I will ask a THIRD time. What young QB’s have proven their championship pedigree? RUSSELL WILSON IS 31. He is on his THIRD contract. He does NOT COUNT.

 

I will give you credit, Alpha. I went back and you were one person who has been incredibly consistent about paying Russ from the jump. Lots of folks in 2015 were saying it was all the talented team around him and you weren’t.

 

But you cant disqualify Wilson because he won a Super Bowl.  And I am not talking about Wilson at 31, I am talking about young Wilson, I was sold on him back then as already being a guy headed to elite status as he played his best in the biggest moments.  He took a back to back 7 win team and made it a perennial NFC powerhouse.   No one points to the Seahawks and say they underachieve.  They aren't making the SB every single year, rosters go through changes, but he has continued to elevate that team year after year, even when the roster wasn't as strong.  He's put that team on his back, he's a leader that makes his team better and proved that countless times on the field and in huge moments.  Dak is no where near Russels level right now, so he should not be paid like it either.

 

Dak, could still prove be that guy...but he also may be just be a solid QB who has the benefit of very talented rosters around him to put up strong personal stats through big games against softer opponents.  Time will tell.  

 

But, while I am NOT condemning Dak, I am also not sold he is an elite player worthy of what he is looking for.  Its just that simple man.  There is nothing anyone can do to convince me that Andy Dalton wasn't capable of having the same level of success playing for the Cowboys the last 4 years that Dak did.  Thats the problem.  Dak has not separated himself into an elite category.  Does Dak have more upside still, absolutely.  But, I am not a fan of massively over paying for upside without seeing the winning traits on the field.  

 

Dak needs to prove to me he can win because he has the roster to do it, but hasn't done enough of it.  Today, I just do not have the confidence that I had in Russel Wilson when I saw what a special talent he was early on.  I have the same opinion of Goff, another guy I am not sold on in the same areas I am not sold on with Dak.  

 

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Alphadawg7

[FireChans]

46 minutes ago, Billl said:

C’mon now...  He just said he’d pay Russell Wilson.  Give him props for bold statements like that.  Just go get a first ballot HOFer to play QB for 15 years and then draft a roster of all pros to put around him.  Why don’t more GMs realize this?

Lol I actually agree with Alpha on a lot, but he knows once he mentions Watson and proving championship caliber, I’m going to tear it apart. 

 

31 NFL QB’s don’t win the Super Bowl every year. 20 don’t make the playoffs every year. 4 get bounced in the first round every year. 

 

I get it, some folks have expected more out of Dak and the Cowboys. But if one more playoff game is the difference between paying him or not, well that’s just silly.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

C’mon now...  He just said he’d pay Russell Wilson.  Give him props for bold statements like that.  Just go get a first ballot HOFer to play QB for 15 years and then draft a roster of all pros to put around him.  Why don’t more GMs realize this?

 

Dude...you need to read more.  

 

I literally posted about young Wilson as an example of a young player who proved elite traits on the field.  Its NOT common to see an ELITE QB emerge as they are NOT many of them in the league at any one time.  Geezus dude.  

 

I don't pay elite money on a long committed contract to a player who has not elevated the team to even its minimal expectations.  He is coming off a year where a TOP FIVE talented roster DID NOT make the playoffs DESPITE no major injuries.  

Edited June 3, 2020 by Alphadawg7

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

But you cant disqualify Wilson because he won a Super Bowl.  He took a back to back 7 win team and made it a perennial NFC powerhouse.   No one points to the Seahawks and say they underachieve.  They aren't making the SB every single year, rosters go through changes, but he has continued to elevate that team year after year, even when the roster wasn't as strong.  He's put that team on his back, he's a leader that makes his team better and proved that countless times on the field and in huge moments.  Dak is no where near Russels level right now, so he should not be paid like it either.

 

Dak, could still prove be that guy...but he also may be just be a solid QB who has the benefit of very talented rosters around him to put up strong personal stats through big games against softer opponents.  Time will tell.  

 

But, while I am NOT condemning Dak, I am also not sold he is an elite player worthy of what he is looking for.  Its just that simple man.  There is nothing anyone can do to convince me that Andy Dalton wasn't capable of having the same level of success playing for the Cowboys the last 4 years that Dak did.  Thats the problem.  Dak has not separated himself into an elite category.  Does Dak have more upside still, absolutely.  But, I am not a fan of massively over paying for upside without seeing the winning traits on the field.  

 

Dak needs to prove to me he can win because he has the roster to do it, but hasn't done enough of it.  Today, I just do not have the confidence that I had in Russel Wilson when I saw what a special talent he was early on.  I have the same opinion of Goff, another guy I am not sold on in the same areas I am not sold on with Dak.  

 

 

You legitimately cannot name another young QB. That says it all I think.

 

Wilson is proven, we all know this. I’m not discounting him because he’s great, I’m discounting him because it’s OBVIOUS. He won a Super Bow and played excellent on his rookie deal. 

 

Oh wow, he took a 7 win team! Dak took a 4 win team.

 

Talk about the young QB’s currently. Watson is up for extension next year. What do you think about him?

 

Again, the point is that you cannot name a QB that hasn’t won a Super Bowl that you’d pay. So that’s the standard you’re obviously holding Dak too.

Edited June 3, 2020 by FireChans

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

You legitimately cannot name another young QB. That says it all I think.

 

Wilson is proven, we all know this. I’m not discounting him because he’s great, I’m discounting him because it’s OBVIOUS. He won a Super Bow and played excellent on his rookie deal. 

 

Oh wow, he took a 7 win team! Dak took a 4 win team.

 

Talk about the young QB’s currently. Watson is up for extension next year. What do you think about him?

 

Again, the point is that you cannot name a QB that hasn’t won a Super Bowl that you’d pay. So that’s the standard you’re obviously holding Dak too.

 

Come on man, you cant disqualify "obvious" answers.  They are factual answers, hence the "obvious".  And you already acknowledged and gave me props for advocating to pay Wilson when he was at the same stage of Dak, not the Wilson of today.  So you KNOW I am consistent in my answer as you looked it up yourself.  And most people here did not want to pay Wilson really when I was saying to pay him, most people said he was just a product of Lynch, which was nonsense.  

 

And to answer your question, yes I would feel more comfortable paying Watson.  Why...because I dont look at Watson and feel like he is "under achieving" with his team.  He has carried that team, especially with weak run support, injuries to his receivers and TE's, injuries to elite players like Watt, and bad OL most his career, etc.  And that roster is no where near as talented overall as the Cowboys have had during Daks 4 years.  

 

Watson hasn't had a top 5 roster 4 straight years and failed to make the playoffs twice and only won one playoff game.  Dak has.  Its that simple.  Watson has done about as much, or more than Dak with a lesser roster.  Watson has reached playoffs in 2 of his 3 years and has one win, and the only time he missed the playoffs was the year he was knocked out for the season mid way as a rookie.

 

Dak has made playoffs twice in 4 years, and has one win.  Watson has a lesser roster, and has been more consistent in leading his team and made playoffs in back to back years, something Dak has yet to do despite the better roster. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Alphadawg7

[Billl]

4 years into his career, Dak has won 40 regular season games.  He’s thrown 97 TDs and 36 INTs with just under 16,000 yards passing and a QB rating of 97.  He’s made the playoffs twice and won one game throwing 5 TDs and 2 INTs with 794 passing yards and a rating of 95.7.

 

To match that, Josh would have to win 25 regular season games in the next 2 seasons.  He'll have to throw 67 TDs and 15 INTs with about 11,000 yards passing and a rating of around 120.  He’ll need to win a playoff game for the first time, throw for 500 yards and 5 TDs with a rating of around 120 in those games.

 

That’s not to surpass what Dak has done.  That’s just to match it.  Dak has that much of a lead with just a 2 year head start.  It’s basically a 2 unanimous MVP caliber season difference just to pull even in terms of career accomplishments.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Billl

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

4 years into his career, Dak has won 40 regular season games.  He’s thrown 97 TDs and 36 INTs with just under 16,000 yards passing and a QB rating of 97.  He’s made the playoffs twice and won one game throwing 5 TDs and 2 INTs with 794 passing yards and a rating of 95.7.

 

To match that, Josh would have to win 25 regular season games in the next 2 seasons.  He'll have to throw 67 TDs and 15 INTs with about 11,000 yards passing and a rating of around 120.  He’ll need to win a playoff game for the first time, throw for 500 yards and 5 TDs with a rating of around 120 in those games.

 

That’s not to surpass what Dak has done.  That’s just to match it.  Dak has that much of a lead with just a 2 year head start.  It’s basically a 2 unanimous MVP caliber season difference just to pull even in terms of career accomplishments.

 

Except Josh does not have to do any of that to win a Super Bowl.  Its not about how much stats your QB puts up, its about how many wins he leads your team too.  For years, the most prolific passers in the NFL struggled to even make the playoffs like Rivers, Ryan, Brees, Stafford, etc.  Its is NOT about stats.  How are you like one the few people who still does NOT get that?  

 

Its not about statistical matching, its about the guy doing what needs to be done on the field to get wins.  Allen in his first 2 years, with an inferior roster, leads the NFL in comeback wins and is one of the highest rated 4th quarter rated passers in the entire league.  And he missed or did not finish 6 games due to injury in that span, and still leads the NFL in this category over his first 2 years. 

 

Your obsession with season total stats is exactly why your logic is flawed.  Troy Aikman wasn't a prolific passer, but he won and won a lot with a stacked roster like Dak has.  You do not have throw for 4800+ yards and 40+ TDs to win a Super Bowl.  

 

So sorry, who the hell cares about what you think Allen needs to do to statistically match Dak.  Dak also doesnt run like Allen...Allen put up 30 TD's but you are only counting his passing ones, yet the rushing ones count the same on the score board.  

 

Just about everything you have said is foolish in your analysis.  

Edited June 3, 2020 by Alphadawg7

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Except Josh does not have to do any of that to win a Super Bowl.  Its not about how much stats your QB puts up, its about how many wins he leads your team too.  For years, the most prolific passers in the NFL struggled to even make the playoffs like Rivers, Ryan, Brees, Stafford, etc.  Its is NOT about stats.  How are you like one the few people who still does NOT get that?  

 

Its not about statistical matching, its about the guy doing what needs to be done on the field to get wins.  Allen in his first 2 years, with an inferior roster, leads the NFL in comeback wins and is one of the highest rated 4th quarter rated passers in the entire league.  And he missed or did not finish 6 games due to injury in that span, and still leads the NFL in this category over his first 2 years. 

 

Your obsession with season total stats is exactly why your logic is flawed.  Troy Aikman wasn't a prolific passer, but he won and won a lot with a stacked roster like Dak has.  You do not have throw for 4800+ yards and 40+ TDs to win a Super Bowl.  

 

So sorry, who the hell cares about what you think Allen needs to do to statistically match Dak.  Dak also doesnt run like Allen...Allen put up 30 TD's but you are only counting his passing ones, yet the rushing ones count the same on the score board.  

 

Just about everything you have said is foolish in your analysis.  

 

Speaking of first 2 years, I don't agree with those who say that Dak was better in his 2nd season than Josh was in his.  Which is a major part of why I wouldn't make the trade.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Doc

[r00tabaga]

No